Open source, I see problems. Questions.

Russ · 29th November 2006, 19:44

"competitive barrier to entry and it also acts as a barrier to the free market."
I would argue the competition is a side affect of needing training and that the majority of individuals are safer because of training. I liken getting training to needing a license to drive. There are those that could drive safely and the training is a waste, but if training saves even 1 life or weeds out individuals who should not be diving or driving in this case I see the training as worthwhile.

"If I know how to pack a scrubber generically, should not any unit being sold have sufficient documentation on the nuances of how to pack ITS scrubber properly so that I can do so right up front?" To be fair one would hope so, but you would be surprised.

"What if you have to go there or someone (perhaps your buddy?) is going to die. Who makes the choice? You or the machine? That's the essence of this." I don't argue this but I do point out that from what I understand Alex says there is a manual override for such a scenario, to me more frequently this feature would be helping not hurting. To use a car again it's like the goverment limited chip in cars while there might be a situation where you could need to go above 115 (my cars limitation) but more often it will limit one way of being reckless.

How does revenue in a sport not help it, the only reason products are made is because $ can also be made. There would be mass production and the sport as a whole appeals to more people because there are dive shops, operators and manufacturers. How does the sport benefit if everyone is simply making their own gear? Innovation is great but is going to want to make 1000 units if they cannot make it worth their time?
Another example for how training helps the sport is by trying to make the sport available to everyone.

"As for "making everyone safer", I will buy that as soon as you can show me the pile of dead bodies on homebuilt rebreathers." I would argue those building the units know the limitations and don't push the units past this point. I think its safe to say People are not as carefull with production units causing individuals to be reckless. Currently I have a hard enough time telling people I dive an Inspiration when all I hear is how I dive the "yellow box of death" while most of the deaths where user error all deaths hurt the image and I argue classes attempt to help.

I would also say having national organizations carry classes in rebreathers promotes the sport on a world wide stage.

"It wasn't that long ago that you could buy OC dive gear out of the Sears Catalog by mail order - no card required. Today, you can do so from Leisurepro, including a compressor, again, no card (other than Visa/MC) required."

I'm not sure what your point is with almost any sport one can side step the laws, in 4 wheeling there are very few who require classes ... but manufacturers are pushing for classes not for the profit (they don't see any) but because it would make their sport safer. Scuba went through a similiar transition and I for one think the sport is better because of it.
Do I think there are people out there who can and do dive rebreathers without formal classes, yes I do. Should they be able to do so, maybe but for the few that have little benefit from classes more would be hurt from a lack of required classes. If someone decides to build their own unit and dive it as there are no classes good for them, they are the experts on those units, if you were to make a unit and sell it to others wouldn't you like to take them into the pool and make sure they are competent to dive it? Would you be scared if random individuals bought your unit and there is no way for you to make sure they don't hurt themselves either for moral reasons or the fact that it would hurt the image of your product?

I do respect the right for someone to choose to not be certified in a production unit and avoid taking classes and they have that right, just don't buy it! If you are very competent find an instructor who feels the same way you do and let them sign off on you.

I just feel as the sport becomes more mainstream (diving in general and rebreathers) more individuals will be joining us divers and as the #'s increase the competency and expertise decreases. The only way to offset this gap is to offer training and the only way to make sure everyone who needs the training receives it, is to require training.
we are all entitled to think and feel the way we do, I hope you find ways around feeding the machine in diving. I would love to see your homebuilt as all rebreathers start out as homebuilts but I would find it hard to believe if you decided to mass produce the unit you would keep the same anti training beliefs

Russ

p.s. how did we get so far off topic... really looking forward to seeing the OR on the market and like Genesis I hope the unit is affordable

Sponge-Bob · 29th November 2006, 19:56

You can always tell a pioneer by the arrows in his back!

To be honest I'm sick to my back teeth with agencies! For ten years I was 'putting another $ in' and had small minded little Hitlers from Tec agencies telling me how I should or should not run my business threats of expulsion for being out spoken and pushing boundaries.

It doesn't matter to me anymore and its very liberating. Expiring cert cards, software, units etc are a form of control. How many of us solo dive? See how that is frowned on!

The 'nanny' state filters into our every day lives. Diving is supposed to be an escape.

If your not working commercially or as a business none of these agencies have or should have control over you.

It reminds me of a story Gary Gentile told me once about how he helped set up an agency in the U.S. They were running backwards and forwards to him for advice an consultation. He was one of the pioneering Trimix divers diving gas in the 70s before agencies existed.

Then one day he went to get a gas fill and the very same guy asked for his cert card and refused to give him a fill. Imagine the response!

None of this stuff affects newbies. Most beginners walk the agency path and wouldn't even consider anything otherwise. People in the know will always find a way, fact!

AD_ward9 · 29th November 2006, 20:00

Quote: (Originally Posted by Sponge-Bob)

Expiring cert cards, software, units etc are a form of control. How many of us solo dive? See how that is frowned on!

I agree with you 100% on expiring anything. Once you buy something and have a certain functionality, you should always have it.
Nothing is being done whatsoever to detract from that. It is just a matter that you have to buy it in the first place.

Alex

mstroeck · 29th November 2006, 20:48

Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9)

On the Rebreather, you get to see the fish much better, it is quieter, and get much longer dives. Running out of gas is a big concern for most OW divers on O.C. Designed properly, they should be safer than O.C. (we know, not now).

That's more or less the only thing where I personally completely disagree with you. Get them some doubles, or show them how to sling a stage, but I think an eCCR is a bit overkill for standard OW dives.

Sponge-Bob · 29th November 2006, 22:25

Quote: (Originally Posted by mstroeck)

That's more or less the only thing where I personally completely disagree with you. Get them some doubles, or show them how to sling a stage, but I think an eCCR is a bit overkill for standard OW dives.

I totally agree with you on this. Its about picking the right set up for the job in hand. I have 4 weight belts set up and configurations from a single tank, twin 7's through to twin 20's, SCR and CCR. Side slings from twin 7's through to 15's with multiples under each arm.

You need to know your craft.

All too often on our charter vessels I watched in dismay as divers dropped over the side like Christmas Tree's for simple recreational dives. OK, perhaps they are getting the practice in, but for most they only could work the one configuration.

I don't think a CCR rebreather will ever replace Open Circuit for simple recreational dives. I'm lucky, I can pick and choose my kit and for a 6-10m 'bimble' I grab a single cylinder and a BCD every time. Its all about being equipped, not over equipped. Why over complicate a simple procedure. Horses for courses and all that!

Mark Chase · 30th November 2006, 07:56

Quote: (Originally Posted by Sponge-Bob)

I totally agree with you on this. Its about picking the right set up for the job in hand. I have 4 weight belts set up and configurations from a single tank, twin 7's through to twin 20's, SCR and CCR. Side slings from twin 7's through to 15's with multiples under each arm.

You need to know your craft.

All too often on our charter vessels I watched in dismay as divers dropped over the side like Christmas Tree's for simple recreational dives. OK, perhaps they are getting the practice in, but for most they only could work the one configuration.

I don't think a CCR rebreather will ever replace Open Circuit for simple recreational dives. I'm lucky, I can pick and choose my kit and for a 6-10m 'bimble' I grab a single cylinder and a BCD every time. Its all about being equipped, not over equipped. Why over complicate a simple procedure. Horses for courses and all that!

Very true, I have twin 7s down to 25ish and for every thing else in the UK I dive CCR. Mainly because I am fond of trimix past 30m and its much cheeper to do that CCR.

ATB

Mark Chase

silent running · 30th November 2006, 08:41

Quote: (Originally Posted by mstroeck)

That's more or less the only thing where I personally completely disagree with you. Get them some doubles, or show them how to sling a stage, but I think an eCCR is a bit overkill for standard OW dives.

Hello mstroek, what's to disagree with? Either one has better wildlife interactions on CCR, or they don't. Either longer dive times give you maximum dive planning flexability, or it doesn't.

I started diving SCR in 98' and got my CCR in 01 mainly for these reasons and for the deco advantage, as my training has advanced. My CCR is easy to set up and dive and has proven it's worth over and over again as a "tool" for getting the most out of my wildlife encounters and dive planning flexability. I can do 2x120 minute dives or 3x100 minute dives or stay down longer if the action is good. On a typical rec dive day, I only suit up 2-3 times and still get in more time underwater than OCs do in 5 dives and have more time to do other things topside. And I'm certainly not the only person who finds these things attractive enough to move over to CCR... -Andy

sven · 30th November 2006, 13:06

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase)

I trained on a Classic, I dived a vision, no big deel, I dived a Hammer Head no big deel same for the Shearwater unit
...

Mark,

That is all well, as long as the differences between the units are marginal. But when you look at Classic vs. PRISM for instance - reversed gasflow, reversed placement of injector buttons, etc ...

Scenario:
You've been diving the PRISM for XXs of hours, now you get a Classic. Your next dive requires 8/70 dil. While on the surface, the unit fails (eg. solenoid or battery) and you have to fly it manually. There is a strong current & big waves. You need to get back onto the boat. You work hard. Suddenly you remember that you are flying the unit manually and inject oxygen. Or that's what you think - in fact, because of your PRISM experience you pushed the wrong button and injected 8/70. Shortly after, the lights go out. Another Rebreather fatality.

That for me is one reason why a cross over course should be mandatory. It is the first step in relearning the "muscle memory" which is needed in a situation like this. Reading a manual is simply not enough. You have to start "from scratch", otherwise it is an accident waiting to happen. Starting "from scratch" - I mean shallow dives with an air diluent, and gradually work our way up (or down?) towards Trimix diluent and deeper dives. Sometimes, experience can be the cause of an incident.

Sure, when you switch from the Classic to the Vision the change is less dramatic. Still ...

Now everybody flame me :-) but I believe that we all overestimate our skills and ability to handle problems. I support the idea of mandatory training and mandatory cross training. No shortcuts.

**PhilSiswick** · 30th November 2006, 13:14

Quote: (Originally Posted by sven)

Mark,

That is all well, as long as the differences between the units are marginal. But when you look at Classic vs. PRISM for instance - reversed gasflow, reversed placement of injector buttons, etc ...

Scenario:
You've been diving the PRISM for XXs of hours, now you get a Classic. Your next dive requires 8/70 dil. While on the surface, the unit fails (eg. solenoid or battery) and you have to fly it manually. There is a strong current & big waves. You need to get back onto the boat. You work hard. Suddenly you remember that you are flying the unit manually and inject oxygen. Or that's what you think - in fact, because of your PRISM experience you pushed the wrong button and injected 8/70. Shortly after, the lights go out. Another Rebreather fatality.

That for me is one reason why a cross over course should be mandatory. It is the first step in relearning the "muscle memory" which is needed in a situation like this. Reading a manual is simply not enough. You have to start "from scratch", otherwise it is an accident waiting to happen. Starting "from scratch" - I mean shallow dives with an air diluent, and gradually work our way up (or down?) towards Trimix diluent and deeper dives. Sometimes, experience can be the cause of an incident.

Sure, when you switch from the Classic to the Vision the change is less dramatic. Still ...

Now everybody flame me :-) but I believe that we all overestimate our skills and ability to handle problems. I support the idea of mandatory training and mandatory cross training. No shortcuts.

Sven,

Completely agree with you and if/when I change my Vision for something else, I'd want to do a crossover. However, does anyone do a crossover? I don't remember seeing on in the IANTD course list - I certainly got the impresssion that I would need to do Mod 1 again.

Given that courses are expensive, unless there is a sensible crossover option, people aren't going to bother getting any training when they buy a new unit. Simple economics.

Cheers,

Genesis · 30th November 2006, 13:32

Quote: (Originally Posted by sven)

Now everybody flame me :-) but I believe that we all overestimate our skills and ability to handle problems. I support the idea of mandatory training and mandatory cross training. No shortcuts.

I am anti-mandatory anything that only directly affects you.

I believe that personal responsibility and personal autonomy is more important than the right to commercially exploit people.

I also believe that we all have a right to determine our own personal level of risk.

Diving is a quite-unique undertaking in that the risk you assume when you go in the water is entirely personal. It is thus most akin to solo mountain climbing. Should we attempt to prevent people from summiting Everest? If you believe in mandatory dive certification, then your answer must be absolutely yes, because the death rate as a percentage of those who attempt it dwarfs anything that divers could pull off - even completely untrained cave-divers.

Now try to run that line past some climbers and see if you make it out the front door of the bar in one piece.

Before you start the "but someone will have to come after your dead azz" line, remember - that risk is entirely voluntary and personal as well! Nobody forces you to attempt a recovery.

To the extent that an industry structures the activity for the express purpose of spreading the consequences of your actions around to other participants they are demonstrably anti-freedom and anti-personal responsibility - and thus unworthy of your support, whether financial or otherwise.

29th November 2006, 19:44	#91 (permalink)
Russ New Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 88	Re: Open source, I see problems. Questions. "competitive barrier to entry and it also acts as a barrier to the free market." I would argue the competition is a side affect of needing training and that the majority of individuals are safer because of training. I liken getting training to needing a license to drive. There are those that could drive safely and the training is a waste, but if training saves even 1 life or weeds out individuals who should not be diving or driving in this case I see the training as worthwhile. "If I know how to pack a scrubber generically, should not any unit being sold have sufficient documentation on the nuances of how to pack ITS scrubber properly so that I can do so right up front?" To be fair one would hope so, but you would be surprised. "What if you have to* go there or someone (perhaps your buddy?) is going to die. Who makes the choice? You or the machine? That's the essence of this."* I don't argue this but I do point out that from what I understand Alex says there is a manual override for such a scenario, to me more frequently this feature would be helping not hurting. To use a car again it's like the goverment limited chip in cars while there might be a situation where you could need to go above 115 (my cars limitation) but more often it will limit one way of being reckless. How does revenue in a sport not help it, the only reason products are made is because $ can also be made. There would be mass production and the sport as a whole appeals to more people because there are dive shops, operators and manufacturers. How does the sport benefit if everyone is simply making their own gear? Innovation is great but is going to want to make 1000 units if they cannot make it worth their time? Another example for how training helps the sport is by trying to make the sport available to everyone. "As for "making everyone safer", I will buy that as soon as you can show me the pile of dead bodies on homebuilt rebreathers." I would argue those building the units know the limitations and don't push the units past this point. I think its safe to say People are not as carefull with production units causing individuals to be reckless. Currently I have a hard enough time telling people I dive an Inspiration when all I hear is how I dive the "yellow box of death" while most of the deaths where user error all deaths hurt the image and I argue classes attempt to help. I would also say having national organizations carry classes in rebreathers promotes the sport on a world wide stage. "It wasn't that long ago that you could buy OC dive gear out of the Sears Catalog by mail order - no card required. Today, you can do so from Leisurepro, including a compressor, again, no card (other than Visa/MC) required." I'm not sure what your point is with almost any sport one can side step the laws, in 4 wheeling there are very few who require classes ... but manufacturers are pushing for classes not for the profit (they don't see any) but because it would make their sport safer. Scuba went through a similiar transition and I for one think the sport is better because of it. Do I think there are people out there who can and do dive rebreathers without formal classes, yes I do. Should they be able to do so, maybe but for the few that have little benefit from classes more would be hurt from a lack of required classes. If someone decides to build their own unit and dive it as there are no classes good for them, they are the experts on those units, if you were to make a unit and sell it to others wouldn't you like to take them into the pool and make sure they are competent to dive it? Would you be scared if random individuals bought your unit and there is no way for you to make sure they don't hurt themselves either for moral reasons or the fact that it would hurt the image of your product? I do respect the right for someone to choose to not be certified in a production unit and avoid taking classes and they have that right, just don't buy it! If you are very competent find an instructor who feels the same way you do and let them sign off on you. I just feel as the sport becomes more mainstream (diving in general and rebreathers) more individuals will be joining us divers and as the #'s increase the competency and expertise decreases. The only way to offset this gap is to offer training and the only way to make sure everyone who needs the training receives it, is to require training. we are all entitled to think and feel the way we do, I hope you find ways around feeding the machine in diving. I would love to see your homebuilt as all rebreathers start out as homebuilts but I would find it hard to believe if you decided to mass produce the unit you would keep the same anti training beliefs Russ p.s. how did we get so far off topic... really looking forward to seeing the OR on the market and like Genesis I hope the unit is affordable Last edited by Russ : 29th November 2006 at 19:47.
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29th November 2006, 19:56	#92 (permalink)
Sponge-Bob New Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Dolphin Ray Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Dolphin Ray Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Scotland Posts: 29	Re: Open source, I see problems. Questions. You can always tell a pioneer by the arrows in his back! To be honest I'm sick to my back teeth with agencies! For ten years I was 'putting another $ in' and had small minded little Hitlers from Tec agencies telling me how I should or should not run my business threats of expulsion for being out spoken and pushing boundaries. It doesn't matter to me anymore and its very liberating. Expiring cert cards, software, units etc are a form of control. How many of us solo dive? See how that is frowned on! The 'nanny' state filters into our every day lives. Diving is supposed to be an escape. If your not working commercially or as a business none of these agencies have or should have control over you. It reminds me of a story Gary Gentile told me once about how he helped set up an agency in the U.S. They were running backwards and forwards to him for advice an consultation. He was one of the pioneering Trimix divers diving gas in the 70s before agencies existed. Then one day he went to get a gas fill and the very same guy asked for his cert card and refused to give him a fill. Imagine the response! None of this stuff affects newbies. Most beginners walk the agency path and wouldn't even consider anything otherwise. People in the know will always find a way, fact! __________________ If you want a Guarantee.....Buy a toaster! Last edited by Sponge-Bob : 29th November 2006 at 22:08.
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29th November 2006, 20:00	#93 (permalink)
AD_ward9 So much more to learn Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Scotland Posts: 1,856	Re: Open source, I see problems. Questions. Quote: (Originally Posted by Sponge-Bob) Expiring cert cards, software, units etc are a form of control. How many of us solo dive? See how that is frowned on! I agree with you 100% on expiring anything. Once you buy something and have a certain functionality, you should always have it. Nothing is being done whatsoever to detract from that. It is just a matter that you have to buy it in the first place. Alex
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29th November 2006, 20:48	#94 (permalink)
mstroeck New Member Current Rebreather/s: Dolphin Other Rebreather/s: Dolphin Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Vienna, Austria Posts: 32	Re: Open source, I see problems. Questions. Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9) On the Rebreather, you get to see the fish much better, it is quieter, and get much longer dives. Running out of gas is a big concern for most OW divers on O.C. Designed properly, they should be safer than O.C. (we know, not now). That's more or less the only thing where I personally completely disagree with you. Get them some doubles, or show them how to sling a stage, but I think an eCCR is a bit overkill for standard OW dives. __________________ Michael Ströck
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29th November 2006, 22:25	#95 (permalink)
Sponge-Bob New Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Dolphin Ray Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Dolphin Ray Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Scotland Posts: 29	Re: Open source, I see problems. Questions. Quote: (Originally Posted by mstroeck) That's more or less the only thing where I personally completely disagree with you. Get them some doubles, or show them how to sling a stage, but I think an eCCR is a bit overkill for standard OW dives. I totally agree with you on this. Its about picking the right set up for the job in hand. I have 4 weight belts set up and configurations from a single tank, twin 7's through to twin 20's, SCR and CCR. Side slings from twin 7's through to 15's with multiples under each arm. You need to know your craft. All too often on our charter vessels I watched in dismay as divers dropped over the side like Christmas Tree's for simple recreational dives. OK, perhaps they are getting the practice in, but for most they only could work the one configuration. I don't think a CCR rebreather will ever replace Open Circuit for simple recreational dives. I'm lucky, I can pick and choose my kit and for a 6-10m 'bimble' I grab a single cylinder and a BCD every time. Its all about being equipped, not over equipped. Why over complicate a simple procedure. Horses for courses and all that! __________________ If you want a Guarantee.....Buy a toaster!
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30th November 2006, 07:56	#96 (permalink)
Mark Chase I go down for ages Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kent Posts: 2,694	Re: Open source, I see problems. Questions. Quote: (Originally Posted by Sponge-Bob) I totally agree with you on this. Its about picking the right set up for the job in hand. I have 4 weight belts set up and configurations from a single tank, twin 7's through to twin 20's, SCR and CCR. Side slings from twin 7's through to 15's with multiples under each arm. You need to know your craft. All too often on our charter vessels I watched in dismay as divers dropped over the side like Christmas Tree's for simple recreational dives. OK, perhaps they are getting the practice in, but for most they only could work the one configuration. I don't think a CCR rebreather will ever replace Open Circuit for simple recreational dives. I'm lucky, I can pick and choose my kit and for a 6-10m 'bimble' I grab a single cylinder and a BCD every time. Its all about being equipped, not over equipped. Why over complicate a simple procedure. Horses for courses and all that! Very true, I have twin 7s down to 25ish and for every thing else in the UK I dive CCR. Mainly because I am fond of trimix past 30m and its much cheeper to do that CCR. ATB Mark Chase __________________ Is it supposed to make that noise ? I took my unit to the dive shop and demanded they bolt on every thing that would fit. Join my elite diving teem and get a Tshirt "Doing It Chasey"Hammerhead Eccr Advanced Diving System
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30th November 2006, 08:41	#97 (permalink)
silent running Mature mouth breather Current Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: U.S.A. Brooklyn, New York Posts: 1,836	Re: Open source, I see problems. Questions. Quote: (Originally Posted by mstroeck) That's more or less the only thing where I personally completely disagree with you. Get them some doubles, or show them how to sling a stage, but I think an eCCR is a bit overkill for standard OW dives. Hello mstroek, what's to disagree with? Either one has better wildlife interactions on CCR, or they don't. Either longer dive times give you maximum dive planning flexability, or it doesn't. I started diving SCR in 98' and got my CCR in 01 mainly for these reasons and for the deco advantage, as my training has advanced. My CCR is easy to set up and dive and has proven it's worth over and over again as a "tool" for getting the most out of my wildlife encounters and dive planning flexability. I can do 2x120 minute dives or 3x100 minute dives or stay down longer if the action is good. On a typical rec dive day, I only suit up 2-3 times and still get in more time underwater than OCs do in 5 dives and have more time to do other things topside. And I'm certainly not the only person who finds these things attractive enough to move over to CCR... -Andy
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30th November 2006, 13:06	#98 (permalink)
sven Blogs Admin / Forum Mod Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Evolution Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Sydney Posts: 574	Re: Open source, I see problems. Questions. Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase) I trained on a Classic, I dived a vision, no big deel, I dived a Hammer Head no big deel same for the Shearwater unit ... Mark, That is all well, as long as the differences between the units are marginal. But when you look at Classic vs. PRISM for instance - reversed gasflow, reversed placement of injector buttons, etc ... Scenario: You've been diving the PRISM for XXs of hours, now you get a Classic. Your next dive requires 8/70 dil. While on the surface, the unit fails (eg. solenoid or battery) and you have to fly it manually. There is a strong current & big waves. You need to get back onto the boat. You work hard. Suddenly you remember that you are flying the unit manually and inject oxygen. Or that's what you think - in fact, because of your PRISM experience you pushed the wrong button and injected 8/70. Shortly after, the lights go out. Another Rebreather fatality. That for me is one reason why a cross over course should be mandatory. It is the first step in relearning the "muscle memory" which is needed in a situation like this. Reading a manual is simply not enough. You have to start "from scratch", otherwise it is an accident waiting to happen. Starting "from scratch" - I mean shallow dives with an air diluent, and gradually work our way up (or down?) towards Trimix diluent and deeper dives. Sometimes, experience can be the cause of an incident. Sure, when you switch from the Classic to the Vision the change is less dramatic. Still ... Now everybody flame me :-) but I believe that we all overestimate our skills and ability to handle problems. I support the idea of mandatory training and mandatory cross training. No shortcuts. __________________ Regards, Sven [SIZE=1]The Sydney Project website: [URL]http://www.sydneyproject.com[/URL] My Blog: [URL]http://sven.rebreatherworld.com[/URL] "Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect." Mark Twain[/SIZE]
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30th November 2006, 13:14	#99 (permalink)
PhilSiswick Phil Siswick, Tango Current Rebreather/s: Evolution Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Oxford, UK Posts: 991	Re: Open source, I see problems. Questions. Quote: (Originally Posted by sven) Mark, That is all well, as long as the differences between the units are marginal. But when you look at Classic vs. PRISM for instance - reversed gasflow, reversed placement of injector buttons, etc ... Scenario: You've been diving the PRISM for XXs of hours, now you get a Classic. Your next dive requires 8/70 dil. While on the surface, the unit fails (eg. solenoid or battery) and you have to fly it manually. There is a strong current & big waves. You need to get back onto the boat. You work hard. Suddenly you remember that you are flying the unit manually and inject oxygen. Or that's what you think - in fact, because of your PRISM experience you pushed the wrong button and injected 8/70. Shortly after, the lights go out. Another Rebreather fatality. That for me is one reason why a cross over course should be mandatory. It is the first step in relearning the "muscle memory" which is needed in a situation like this. Reading a manual is simply not enough. You have to start "from scratch", otherwise it is an accident waiting to happen. Starting "from scratch" - I mean shallow dives with an air diluent, and gradually work our way up (or down?) towards Trimix diluent and deeper dives. Sometimes, experience can be the cause of an incident. Sure, when you switch from the Classic to the Vision the change is less dramatic. Still ... Now everybody flame me :-) but I believe that we all overestimate our skills and ability to handle problems. I support the idea of mandatory training and mandatory cross training. No shortcuts. Sven, Completely agree with you and if/when I change my Vision for something else, I'd want to do a crossover. However, does anyone do a crossover? I don't remember seeing on in the IANTD course list - I certainly got the impresssion that I would need to do Mod 1 again. Given that courses are expensive, unless there is a sensible crossover option, people aren't going to bother getting any training when they buy a new unit. Simple economics. Cheers, __________________ Phil (WSKD 0001) I have always felt that the dive I am on is not nearly important as the dives I plan to be on the rest of my life. Tom Rose, 2007 The person who gets the farthest is generally the one who is willing to do and dare. The sure thing boat never gets far from shore. Charles A. Lindbergh www.hugsac.org.uk
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30th November 2006, 13:32	#100 (permalink)
Genesis Bubbless Box of Death Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Home Build Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Sunny Florida Posts: 1,396	Re: Open source, I see problems. Questions. Quote: (Originally Posted by sven) Now everybody flame me :-) but I believe that we all overestimate our skills and ability to handle problems. I support the idea of mandatory training and mandatory cross training. No shortcuts. I am anti-mandatory anything that only directly affects you. I believe that personal responsibility and personal autonomy is more important than the right to commercially exploit people. I also believe that we all have a right to determine our own personal level of risk. Diving is a quite-unique undertaking in that the risk you assume when you go in the water is entirely personal. It is thus most akin to solo mountain climbing. Should we attempt to prevent people from summiting Everest? If you believe in mandatory dive certification, then your answer must be absolutely yes, because the death rate as a percentage of those who attempt it dwarfs anything that divers could pull off - even completely untrained cave-divers. Now try to run that line past some climbers and see if you make it out the front door of the bar in one piece. Before you start the "but someone will have to come after your dead azz" line, remember - that risk is entirely voluntary and personal as well! Nobody forces you to attempt a recovery. To the extent that an industry structures the activity for the express purpose of spreading the consequences of your actions around to other participants they are demonstrably anti-freedom and anti-personal responsibility - and thus unworthy of your support, whether financial or otherwise. __________________ "A venturesome minority will always be eager to get off on their own, and no obstacles should be placed in their path; let them take risks for Godsake, let them get lost, sunburnt, stranded, drowned, eaten by bears, buried alive under avalanches - that is the right and privilege of any free American." http://www.denninger.net http://www.diversunion.org/liability.htm - Fix the Diving Cert racket
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