using LiMn batteries

Faceless · 23rd April 2007, 14:00

I wonder, whether O.R. team has considered using lithium manganese dioxide batteries within current design. One of important features these batteries have is ability to withstand "capacity leak" even in cold water, which greatly impact widely available Li-Ion battery packs.
For instance here is some technical info on battery pack from Duracell, claiming pretty good shell life as well:
http://www.duracell.com/oem/Pdf/others/LithBull.pdf

AD_ward9 · 23rd April 2007, 19:00

Quote: (Originally Posted by Faceless)

I wonder, whether O.R. team has considered using lithium manganese dioxide batteries within current design. One of important features these batteries have is ability to withstand "capacity leak" even in cold water, which greatly impact widely available Li-Ion battery packs.
For instance here is some technical info on battery pack from Duracell, claiming pretty good shell life as well:
http://www.duracell.com/oem/Pdf/others/LithBull.pdf

We would not use user replaceable batteries (primary cells) in a life critical application. Battery contacts and uniformity of supply pose serious hurdles to getting them through any safety review.

We are using the Valence rechargeable batteries just now. See Valence - Battery Safety

Alex

Faceless · 23rd April 2007, 20:33

Agree, but i meant using rechargeable batteries.
Sorry for a wrong example, here is a more relevant one:

SAT AG - Battery-Packs | Point of Power
http://www.electrochem.org/meetings/...s/210/0356.pdf

"Mb sub" is using them within of a new line of their products:
Here is a quote from their site:
Advantages of Lithium-Manganese-accumulators

high efficiency, also in cold water
no more memory effect
no self discharging
good shelf life
don´t need security electronic
long life cycle
high capacity
may be charged in shut enclosures

http://www.mb-sub.com/88/?L=2

AD_ward9 · 24th April 2007, 05:08

Quote: (Originally Posted by Faceless)

Agree, but i meant using rechargeable batteries.
Sorry for a wrong example, here is a more relevant one:

SAT AG - Battery-Packs | Point of Power
http://www.electrochem.org/meetings/...s/210/0356.pdf

"Mb sub" is using them within of a new line of their products:
Here is a quote from their site:
Advantages of Lithium-Manganese-accumulators

high efficiency, also in cold water
no more memory effect
no self discharging
good shelf life
don´t need security electronic
long life cycle
high capacity
may be charged in shut enclosures

http://www.mb-sub.com/88/?L=2

Sorry, the Duracell link was a datasheet on primary cells. I read over the research paper. It would be necessary to test them in helium under pressure. Are you aware of a commercial source for these?

Alex

Faceless · 24th April 2007, 10:31

Unfortunately at this time no, but I try to research for this info a little bit.
I suspect that LiMn secondary batteries promoted by MB SUB could possibly be either LiMn tuthanium or LiMn aluminium based ones.
Like this one ( wrong form factor though)
Panasonic Manganese Titanium Rechargeable Lithium Batteries

Also here is an outdated scientific research on lithium aluminum manganese rechargeable batteries:
http://web.mit.edu/dsadoway/www/88.pdf

Faceless · 25th April 2007, 10:19

FYI:
Got interesting info about those LIMn batteries:

It's Sony 18650V and VT types, also Philips produces similar batteries.
A quote from the Sony press release dated by 2004:
Sony Global - Press Release - Announcement of New Lithium Ion Batteries, Realizing Industry's Highest Level of Energy Density - High-power output cylindrical lithium ion battery fit for high-power supply also announced -

Quote:

High power Cylindrical Lithium Ion battery (V Cell, VT Cell Series)
By using Nickel/Manganese mixture in the positive electrode, stability in high temperature conditions have been achieved, also achieving safe usage with high level of current, this being the characteristics of V/VT series. By the combination with high-voltage, which is the characteristics of lithium ion batteries, usage in the high-power output application field (such as power tools, cleaners, motor assisted bicycles) will be ideal, where conventionally Nickel-Cadmium, Nickel-Hydrogen batteries were used. In the 18650V cell, maximum output of 10A, and in the 6650VT cell, maximum output of 50A have been achieved.

Also here is an interesting graph shoving behaviour of the 18650V under various loads (german language):
** Elektromodellflug - LiIon-Mangan 1100 im Test

AD_ward9 · 27th April 2007, 07:32

Quote: (Originally Posted by Faceless)

FYI:
Got interesting info about those LIMn batteries:

It's Sony 18650V and VT types, also Philips produces similar batteries.
A quote from the Sony press release dated by 2004:
Sony Global - Press Release - Announcement of New Lithium Ion Batteries, Realizing Industry's Highest Level of Energy Density - High-power output cylindrical lithium ion battery fit for high-power supply also announced -

Also here is an interesting graph shoving behaviour of the 18650V under various loads (german language):
** Elektromodellflug - LiIon-Mangan 1100 im Test

Thanks. We will order up today a batch of 18650Vs and put them into the pressure pot.

We are always looking for better batteries. I will let you know how the tests go.

Alex

teomannaskali · 28th October 2007, 13:11

Any news on batteries? I am looking for a nice compact batterie 3.0 v,

For a ppo2 display a la kiss. I will use it with lascar displays. So peferrably it fits in to a tube the same size as the lascar display. i.e. ID of 25mm

I plan on installing the batteries and then having the display on all the time. So I don not have to bother with opening and closing the thing. If I use 2 2700mAh GP brand AA cells then i only need to open the housing every 10 months (theoretical). So open the batterie compartment after 6 moths to charge the batteries, then the second time will be once it is time to change the cells (you dont have to open the batterie compartment for that but ..).

Teoman

teomannaskali · 6th November 2007, 20:03

People reading this may find this interesting:
info about batteries
The high-power lithium-ion

AD_ward9 · 1st January 2008, 20:25

Update.

http://www.valence.com/assets/pdf/ex...nal_report.pdf shows the relative safety of the different battery types. We have put the Valence cells into the DL designed products using larger batteries. Drawbacks are larger size (almost double), for a given output, and unusual charging circuitry.

Looks like Lithium Phosphate (e.g. the Valence Saphion), are still the most appropriate for rebreather use or suit heating.

Li-Mn can explode, from a test we did with high PPO2: the case ruptures and the chemicals insides burn. The Li-Co cells are even more exciting: little bombs in a high O2 environment.

The lithium ion cell risks are real enough for airlines to limit the size of cell you can take on. A large cell in a torch battery could blow a hole through the airframe.

The only safe cells right now seem to the Valence cells.

Alex

23rd April 2007, 14:00	#1 (permalink)
Faceless New Member Current Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Join Date: May 2006 Location: France, Montpellier Posts: 88	using LiMn batteries I wonder, whether O.R. team has considered using lithium manganese dioxide batteries within current design. One of important features these batteries have is ability to withstand "capacity leak" even in cold water, which greatly impact widely available Li-Ion battery packs. For instance here is some technical info on battery pack from Duracell, claiming pretty good shell life as well: http://www.duracell.com/oem/Pdf/others/LithBull.pdf __________________ Peoples risk perception is almost always focused on the most dramatic rather than the most probable. (c) Gordon Smith
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23rd April 2007, 19:00	#2 (permalink)
AD_ward9 So much more to learn Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Scotland Posts: 1,602	Re: using LiMn batteries Quote: (Originally Posted by Faceless) I wonder, whether O.R. team has considered using lithium manganese dioxide batteries within current design. One of important features these batteries have is ability to withstand "capacity leak" even in cold water, which greatly impact widely available Li-Ion battery packs. For instance here is some technical info on battery pack from Duracell, claiming pretty good shell life as well: http://www.duracell.com/oem/Pdf/others/LithBull.pdf We would not use user replaceable batteries (primary cells) in a life critical application. Battery contacts and uniformity of supply pose serious hurdles to getting them through any safety review. We are using the Valence rechargeable batteries just now. See Valence - Battery Safety Alex
(Offline)

23rd April 2007, 20:33	#3 (permalink)
Faceless New Member Current Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Join Date: May 2006 Location: France, Montpellier Posts: 88	Re: using LiMn batteries Agree, but i meant using rechargeable batteries. Sorry for a wrong example, here is a more relevant one: SAT AG - Battery-Packs \| Point of Power http://www.electrochem.org/meetings/...s/210/0356.pdf "Mb sub" is using them within of a new line of their products: Here is a quote from their site: Advantages of Lithium-Manganese-accumulators high efficiency, also in cold water no more memory effect no self discharging good shelf life don´t need security electronic long life cycle high capacity may be charged in shut enclosures http://www.mb-sub.com/88/?L=2 __________________ Peoples risk perception is almost always focused on the most dramatic rather than the most probable. (c) Gordon Smith
(Offline)

24th April 2007, 05:08	#4 (permalink)
AD_ward9 So much more to learn Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Scotland Posts: 1,602	Re: using LiMn batteries Quote: (Originally Posted by Faceless) Agree, but i meant using rechargeable batteries. Sorry for a wrong example, here is a more relevant one: SAT AG - Battery-Packs \| Point of Power http://www.electrochem.org/meetings/...s/210/0356.pdf "Mb sub" is using them within of a new line of their products: Here is a quote from their site: Advantages of Lithium-Manganese-accumulators high efficiency, also in cold water no more memory effect no self discharging good shelf life don´t need security electronic long life cycle high capacity may be charged in shut enclosures http://www.mb-sub.com/88/?L=2 Sorry, the Duracell link was a datasheet on primary cells. I read over the research paper. It would be necessary to test them in helium under pressure. Are you aware of a commercial source for these? Alex
(Offline)

24th April 2007, 10:31	#5 (permalink)
Faceless New Member Current Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Join Date: May 2006 Location: France, Montpellier Posts: 88	Re: using LiMn batteries Unfortunately at this time no, but I try to research for this info a little bit. I suspect that LiMn secondary batteries promoted by MB SUB could possibly be either LiMn tuthanium or LiMn aluminium based ones. Like this one ( wrong form factor though) Panasonic Manganese Titanium Rechargeable Lithium Batteries Also here is an outdated scientific research on lithium aluminum manganese rechargeable batteries: http://web.mit.edu/dsadoway/www/88.pdf __________________ Peoples risk perception is almost always focused on the most dramatic rather than the most probable. (c) Gordon Smith Last edited by Faceless : 24th April 2007 at 10:46.
(Offline)

25th April 2007, 10:19	#6 (permalink)
Faceless New Member Current Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Join Date: May 2006 Location: France, Montpellier Posts: 88	Re: using LiMn batteries FYI: Got interesting info about those LIMn batteries: It's Sony 18650V and VT types, also Philips produces similar batteries. A quote from the Sony press release dated by 2004: Sony Global - Press Release - Announcement of New Lithium Ion Batteries, Realizing Industry's Highest Level of Energy Density - High-power output cylindrical lithium ion battery fit for high-power supply also announced - Quote: High power Cylindrical Lithium Ion battery (V Cell, VT Cell Series) By using Nickel/Manganese mixture in the positive electrode, stability in high temperature conditions have been achieved, also achieving safe usage with high level of current, this being the characteristics of V/VT series. By the combination with high-voltage, which is the characteristics of lithium ion batteries, usage in the high-power output application field (such as power tools, cleaners, motor assisted bicycles) will be ideal, where conventionally Nickel-Cadmium, Nickel-Hydrogen batteries were used. In the 18650V cell, maximum output of 10A, and in the 6650VT cell, maximum output of 50A have been achieved. Also here is an interesting graph shoving behaviour of the 18650V under various loads (german language): ** Elektromodellflug - LiIon-Mangan 1100 im Test __________________ Peoples risk perception is almost always focused on the most dramatic rather than the most probable. (c) Gordon Smith Last edited by Faceless : 25th April 2007 at 10:33.
(Offline)

27th April 2007, 07:32	#7 (permalink)
AD_ward9 So much more to learn Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Scotland Posts: 1,602	Re: using LiMn batteries Quote: (Originally Posted by Faceless) FYI: Got interesting info about those LIMn batteries: It's Sony 18650V and VT types, also Philips produces similar batteries. A quote from the Sony press release dated by 2004: Sony Global - Press Release - Announcement of New Lithium Ion Batteries, Realizing Industry's Highest Level of Energy Density - High-power output cylindrical lithium ion battery fit for high-power supply also announced - Also here is an interesting graph shoving behaviour of the 18650V under various loads (german language): ** Elektromodellflug - LiIon-Mangan 1100 im Test Thanks. We will order up today a batch of 18650Vs and put them into the pressure pot. We are always looking for better batteries. I will let you know how the tests go. Alex
(Offline)

28th October 2007, 13:11	#8 (permalink)
teomannaskali Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Home Build Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Istanbul TR Posts: 337	Re: using LiMn batteries Any news on batteries? I am looking for a nice compact batterie 3.0 v, For a ppo2 display a la kiss. I will use it with lascar displays. So peferrably it fits in to a tube the same size as the lascar display. i.e. ID of 25mm I plan on installing the batteries and then having the display on all the time. So I don not have to bother with opening and closing the thing. If I use 2 2700mAh GP brand AA cells then i only need to open the housing every 10 months (theoretical). So open the batterie compartment after 6 moths to charge the batteries, then the second time will be once it is time to change the cells (you dont have to open the batterie compartment for that but ..). Teoman
(Offline)

6th November 2007, 20:03	#9 (permalink)
teomannaskali Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Home Build Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Istanbul TR Posts: 337	Re: using LiMn batteries People reading this may find this interesting: info about batteries The high-power lithium-ion
(Offline)

1st January 2008, 20:25	#10 (permalink)
AD_ward9 So much more to learn Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Scotland Posts: 1,602	Re: using LiMn batteries Update. http://www.valence.com/assets/pdf/ex...nal_report.pdf shows the relative safety of the different battery types. We have put the Valence cells into the DL designed products using larger batteries. Drawbacks are larger size (almost double), for a given output, and unusual charging circuitry. Looks like Lithium Phosphate (e.g. the Valence Saphion), are still the most appropriate for rebreather use or suit heating. Li-Mn can explode, from a test we did with high PPO2: the case ruptures and the chemicals insides burn. The Li-Co cells are even more exciting: little bombs in a high O2 environment. The lithium ion cell risks are real enough for airlines to limit the size of cell you can take on. A large cell in a torch battery could blow a hole through the airframe. The only safe cells right now seem to the Valence cells. Alex Last edited by AD_ward9 : 1st January 2008 at 20:34.
(Offline)

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