Optima Cartridge

Harvey Sisco · 29th November 2006, 02:21

I had heard that the optima was going to have a 6 hr. cartridge soon. Is there any truth to this?

***ScubaDadMiami*** · 29th November 2006, 02:57

My understanding is that this is still in development. (I also do not know the rated duration but only that it is to be more than the current EAC.) However, it is on the way.

I believe that the ETA will still be a while because the representative from Micropore told me not to worry about buying too many of the current EAC's (like if I were to buy a bunch only to find out that the new ones come out the day after).

How long does that mean? I don't know, but I am telling you what I have heard.

**Gill Envy** · 29th November 2006, 03:12

any word on a granular adapter for sorb?

***ScubaDadMiami*** · 29th November 2006, 03:19

Quote: (Originally Posted by Gill Envy)

any word on a granular adapter for sorb?

I never asked (since I am EAC all the way

). I guess something like that might be useful for remote locations though.

If I ever make such a trip, I will try shipping EACs to the shop through which I will be diving (if not already carried), and I'll do this well in advance (in case of loss or damage). I am also "Optim"istic that they will become more widely available across the globe. One can hope.

Genesis · 29th November 2006, 04:43

A granular adapter is likely to result in a significantly shorter duration unless the housing were to be changed, which is lilely to interfere with the case, etc.

My biggest issue with the O2ptima is the cost of the cartridges. Its just flat-out excessive. 4 "fills" for $120ish is the going rate, and that's about double the cost of granular in most cannister designs.

**JPJones** · 29th November 2006, 15:44

Quote: (Originally Posted by Gill Envy)

any word on a granular adapter for sorb?

If it comes out it will be from someone other than Dive Rite unless Lamar has changed his mind. Time and money are better spent on new technology not old. The price difference will disappear in a couple of years anyway as volume goes up and planned production improvements happen. Micropore is a very progressive company and I don't see anything but great things out of them and Dive Rite.

Genesis · 29th November 2006, 18:52

Quote: (Originally Posted by JPJones)

If it comes out it will be from someone other than Dive Rite unless Lamar has changed his mind. Time and money are better spent on new technology not old. The price difference will disappear in a couple of years anyway as volume goes up and planned production improvements happen. Micropore is a very progressive company and I don't see anything but great things out of them and Dive Rite.

This claim has been made since the start of the O2ptima. Indeed, when the O2ptima was announced one of the major criticisms raised was the cartridge price and availability, especially in overseas situations. It was said at the time, over two years ago that both problems would see significant resolution prior to the O2ptimas general release.

Pricing has not changed a nickel since that original announcement.

You and others have been challenged to back it up, and so far there's only been the same bald assertion, and the passage of time without any reduction whatsoever in price.

The facts are that:

Diving is a VERY SMALL part of Micropore's market. Most of it is medical (anesthesia machines, etc.) As a minuscule niche market compared to the whole there is not only no reason to drop pricing but there is a powerful disincentive in that a drop in diving cartridges could bring severe price pressure to bear on their majority market share, especially when insurance companies and the government are footing huge percentages of the bill.
Pricing today is still $129.00/4 cartridges. It was $129.00 a year ago too. The claim was that "significant" price reductions would happen within a year or two when the O2ptima was introduced. A year later, its still "a year or two". Why would anyone believe that now? Do you - or anyone else - have an actual written commitment on future pricing? I don't think so! History says that prices will NOT come down, given (1) and (2).
"Innovation" is not relevant to pricing when you have a monopoly on a particular product - and Micropore does. Sofnolime is expensive, Sodasorb is much cheaper. How'd you like it if you could only buy one brand of granular? Bet the price would be higher? I'm sure it would be!
Some of the "new units" (e.g. the OR device) apparently are having yet another special one-off made for them by Microport (the OR unit will have integral seal rings and apparently some other minor changes.) As such the cartridges will not be interchangeable. There goes the "volume" argument for costs coming down!

I will believe that the Micropore cartridge price will become more reasonable (along with the O2ptima's operating cost per hour) when I actually see the price reductions. Until then I consider any statement made to be mere puffery and unworthy of consideration.

***ScubaDadMiami*** · 29th November 2006, 18:53

Quote: (Originally Posted by JPJones)

Micropore is a very progressive company and I don't see anything but great things out of them and Dive Rite.

I'll say! I was like a kid in a candy factory bouncing back and forth between their booths at DEMA. Looks like lots of great stuff on the horizon.

It is a great time to be a CCR diver.

***ScubaDadMiami*** · 29th November 2006, 19:11

Quote: (Originally Posted by Genesis)

This claim has been made since the start of the O2ptima. Indeed, when the O2ptima was announced one of the major criticisms raised was the cartridge price and availability, especially in overseas situations. It was said at the time, over two years ago that both problems would see significant resolution prior to the O2ptimas general release.

The EACs are becoming more available. True, not in remote locations but in many more locations than a year ago.

We'd all like to see it down now as opposed to later, myself included. However, the information they gave me when I was checking into this a year ago, about it being a year or two before a price drop, is still not out of date. That was a year ago, and that still leaves another year before it will become inaccurate.

I have no affiliation with anyone important or the like. That's just my best guess after talking to them at trade shows and the like.

I'd like it to be even less expensive right now. However, I am still too busy being happy about how much less I am paying for my Helium bill right now to worry that much about it.

**JPJones** · 29th November 2006, 20:08

Quote: (Originally Posted by Genesis)

This claim has been made since the start of the O2ptima. Indeed, when the O2ptima was announced one of the major criticisms raised was the cartridge price and availability, especially in overseas situations. It was said at the time, over two years ago that both problems would see significant resolution prior to the O2ptimas general release.

Pricing has not changed a nickel since that original announcement.

You and others have been challenged to back it up, and so far there's only been the same bald assertion, and the passage of time without any reduction whatsoever in price.

The facts are that:

Diving is a VERY SMALL part of Micropore's market. Most of it is medical (anesthesia machines, etc.) As a minuscule niche market compared to the whole there is not only no reason to drop pricing but there is a powerful disincentive in that a drop in diving cartridges could bring severe price pressure to bear on their majority market share, especially when insurance companies and the government are footing huge percentages of the bill.
Pricing today is still $129.00/4 cartridges. It was $129.00 a year ago too. The claim was that "significant" price reductions would happen within a year or two when the O2ptima was introduced. A year later, its still "a year or two". Why would anyone believe that now? Do you - or anyone else - have an actual written commitment on future pricing? I don't think so! History says that prices will NOT come down, given (1) and (2).
"Innovation" is not relevant to pricing when you have a monopoly on a particular product - and Micropore does. Sofnolime is expensive, Sodasorb is much cheaper. How'd you like it if you could only buy one brand of granular? Bet the price would be higher? I'm sure it would be!
Some of the "new units" (e.g. the OR device) apparently are having yet another special one-off made for them by Microport (the OR unit will have integral seal rings and apparently some other minor changes.) As such the cartridges will not be interchangeable. There goes the "volume" argument for costs coming down!

I will believe that the Micropore cartridge price will become more reasonable (along with the O2ptima's operating cost per hour) when I actually see the price reductions. Until then I consider any statement made to be mere puffery and unworthy of consideration.

I don't see the price as a problem now and since they don't sell the Optima without certification you would not buy it anyway. The Titan will start being delivered to other than Instructors after the first of the year and it uses the same cartridge.

29th November 2006, 02:21	#1 (permalink)
Harvey Sisco New Member Current Rebreather/s: Optima Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Farmersville TX. Posts: 20	Optima Cartridge I had heard that the optima was going to have a 6 hr. cartridge soon. Is there any truth to this?
(Offline)

29th November 2006, 02:57	#2 (permalink)
*ScubaDadMiami* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Optima Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Florida, USA Posts: 2,137	Re: Optima Cartridge My understanding is that this is still in development. (I also do not know the rated duration but only that it is to be more than the current EAC.) However, it is on the way. I believe that the ETA will still be a while because the representative from Micropore told me not to worry about buying too many of the current EAC's (like if I were to buy a bunch only to find out that the new ones come out the day after). How long does that mean? I don't know, but I am telling you what I have heard. __________________ Howard Packer IANTD CCR Instructor Miami Beach, Florida CCRDiveTraining.com
(Online)

29th November 2006, 03:12	#3 (permalink)
Gill Envy Shearwater Copis Divers Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Evolution Other CCR Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: seattle Posts: 1,319	Re: Optima Cartridge any word on a granular adapter for sorb? __________________ Gill Envy ...Because I wasn't born with gills! ><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>
(Offline)

29th November 2006, 03:19	#4 (permalink)
*ScubaDadMiami* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Optima Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Florida, USA Posts: 2,137	Re: Optima Cartridge Quote: (Originally Posted by Gill Envy) any word on a granular adapter for sorb? I never asked (since I am EAC all the way ). I guess something like that might be useful for remote locations though. If I ever make such a trip, I will try shipping EACs to the shop through which I will be diving (if not already carried), and I'll do this well in advance (in case of loss or damage). I am also "Optim"istic that they will become more widely available across the globe. One can hope. __________________ Howard Packer IANTD CCR Instructor Miami Beach, Florida CCRDiveTraining.com
(Online)

29th November 2006, 04:43	#5 (permalink)
Genesis Bubbless Box of Death Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Home Build Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Sunny Florida Posts: 1,397	Re: Optima Cartridge A granular adapter is likely to result in a significantly shorter duration unless the housing were to be changed, which is lilely to interfere with the case, etc. My biggest issue with the O2ptima is the cost of the cartridges. Its just flat-out excessive. 4 "fills" for $120ish is the going rate, and that's about double the cost of granular in most cannister designs. __________________ "A venturesome minority will always be eager to get off on their own, and no obstacles should be placed in their path; let them take risks for Godsake, let them get lost, sunburnt, stranded, drowned, eaten by bears, buried alive under avalanches - that is the right and privilege of any free American." http://www.denninger.net http://www.diversunion.org/liability.htm - Fix the Diving Cert racket
(Online)

29th November 2006, 15:44	#6 (permalink)
JPJones O2ptima Test Dummy Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Megalodon Sport Kiss Classic Kiss Optima Titan Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Florida Posts: 367	Re: Optima Cartridge Quote: (Originally Posted by Gill Envy) any word on a granular adapter for sorb? If it comes out it will be from someone other than Dive Rite unless Lamar has changed his mind. Time and money are better spent on new technology not old. The price difference will disappear in a couple of years anyway as volume goes up and planned production improvements happen. Micropore is a very progressive company and I don't see anything but great things out of them and Dive Rite. __________________ NSS/CDS Training Chairman www.jpjscuba.com
(Offline)

29th November 2006, 18:52	#7 (permalink)
Genesis Bubbless Box of Death Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Home Build Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Sunny Florida Posts: 1,397	Re: Optima Cartridge Quote: (Originally Posted by JPJones) If it comes out it will be from someone other than Dive Rite unless Lamar has changed his mind. Time and money are better spent on new technology not old. The price difference will disappear in a couple of years anyway as volume goes up and planned production improvements happen. Micropore is a very progressive company and I don't see anything but great things out of them and Dive Rite. This claim has been made since the start of the O2ptima. Indeed, when the O2ptima was announced one of the major criticisms raised was the cartridge price and availability, especially in overseas situations. It was said at the time, over two years ago that both problems would see significant resolution prior to the O2ptimas general release. Pricing has not changed a nickel since that original announcement. You and others have been challenged to back it up, and so far there's only been the same bald assertion, and the passage of time without any reduction whatsoever in price. The facts are that: Diving is a VERY SMALL part of Micropore's market. Most of it is medical (anesthesia machines, etc.) As a minuscule niche market compared to the whole there is not only no reason to drop pricing but there is a powerful disincentive in that a drop in diving cartridges could bring severe price pressure to bear on their majority market share, especially when insurance companies and the government are footing huge percentages of the bill. Pricing today is still $129.00/4 cartridges. It was $129.00 a year ago too. The claim was that "significant" price reductions would happen within a year or two when the O2ptima was introduced. A year later, its still "a year or two". Why would anyone believe that now? Do you - or anyone else - have an actual written commitment on future pricing? I don't think so! History says that prices will NOT come down, given (1) and (2). "Innovation" is not relevant to pricing when you have a monopoly on a particular product - and Micropore does. Sofnolime is expensive, Sodasorb is much cheaper. How'd you like it if you could only buy one brand of granular? Bet the price would be higher? I'm sure it would be! Some of the "new units" (e.g. the OR device) apparently are having yet another special one-off made for them by Microport (the OR unit will have integral seal rings and apparently some other minor changes.) As such the cartridges will not be interchangeable. There goes the "volume" argument for costs coming down! I will believe that the Micropore cartridge price will become more reasonable (along with the O2ptima's operating cost per hour) when I actually see the price reductions. Until then I consider any statement made to be mere puffery and unworthy of consideration. __________________ "A venturesome minority will always be eager to get off on their own, and no obstacles should be placed in their path; let them take risks for Godsake, let them get lost, sunburnt, stranded, drowned, eaten by bears, buried alive under avalanches - that is the right and privilege of any free American." http://www.denninger.net http://www.diversunion.org/liability.htm - Fix the Diving Cert racket
(Online)

29th November 2006, 18:53	#8 (permalink)
*ScubaDadMiami* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Optima Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Florida, USA Posts: 2,137	Re: Optima Cartridge Quote: (Originally Posted by JPJones) Micropore is a very progressive company and I don't see anything but great things out of them and Dive Rite. I'll say! I was like a kid in a candy factory bouncing back and forth between their booths at DEMA. Looks like lots of great stuff on the horizon. It is a great time to be a CCR diver. __________________ Howard Packer IANTD CCR Instructor Miami Beach, Florida CCRDiveTraining.com
(Online)

29th November 2006, 19:11	#9 (permalink)
*ScubaDadMiami* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Optima Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Florida, USA Posts: 2,137	Re: Optima Cartridge Quote: (Originally Posted by Genesis) This claim has been made since the start of the O2ptima. Indeed, when the O2ptima was announced one of the major criticisms raised was the cartridge price and availability, especially in overseas situations. It was said at the time, over two years ago that both problems would see significant resolution prior to the O2ptimas general release. The EACs are becoming more available. True, not in remote locations but in many more locations than a year ago. We'd all like to see it down now as opposed to later, myself included. However, the information they gave me when I was checking into this a year ago, about it being a year or two before a price drop, is still not out of date. That was a year ago, and that still leaves another year before it will become inaccurate. I have no affiliation with anyone important or the like. That's just my best guess after talking to them at trade shows and the like. I'd like it to be even less expensive right now. However, I am still too busy being happy about how much less I am paying for my Helium bill right now to worry that much about it. __________________ Howard Packer IANTD CCR Instructor Miami Beach, Florida CCRDiveTraining.com
(Online)

29th November 2006, 20:08	#10 (permalink)
JPJones O2ptima Test Dummy Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Megalodon Sport Kiss Classic Kiss Optima Titan Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Florida Posts: 367	Re: Optima Cartridge Quote: (Originally Posted by Genesis) This claim has been made since the start of the O2ptima. Indeed, when the O2ptima was announced one of the major criticisms raised was the cartridge price and availability, especially in overseas situations. It was said at the time, over two years ago that both problems would see significant resolution prior to the O2ptimas general release. Pricing has not changed a nickel since that original announcement. You and others have been challenged to back it up, and so far there's only been the same bald assertion, and the passage of time without any reduction whatsoever in price. The facts are that: Diving is a VERY SMALL part of Micropore's market. Most of it is medical (anesthesia machines, etc.) As a minuscule niche market compared to the whole there is not only no reason to drop pricing but there is a powerful disincentive in that a drop in diving cartridges could bring severe price pressure to bear on their majority market share, especially when insurance companies and the government are footing huge percentages of the bill. Pricing today is still $129.00/4 cartridges. It was $129.00 a year ago too. The claim was that "significant" price reductions would happen within a year or two when the O2ptima was introduced. A year later, its still "a year or two". Why would anyone believe that now? Do you - or anyone else - have an actual written commitment on future pricing? I don't think so! History says that prices will NOT come down, given (1) and (2). "Innovation" is not relevant to pricing when you have a monopoly on a particular product - and Micropore does. Sofnolime is expensive, Sodasorb is much cheaper. How'd you like it if you could only buy one brand of granular? Bet the price would be higher? I'm sure it would be! Some of the "new units" (e.g. the OR device) apparently are having yet another special one-off made for them by Microport (the OR unit will have integral seal rings and apparently some other minor changes.) As such the cartridges will not be interchangeable. There goes the "volume" argument for costs coming down! I will believe that the Micropore cartridge price will become more reasonable (along with the O2ptima's operating cost per hour) when I actually see the price reductions. Until then I consider any statement made to be mere puffery and unworthy of consideration. I don't see the price as a problem now and since they don't sell the Optima without certification you would not buy it anyway. The Titan will start being delivered to other than Instructors after the first of the year and it uses the same cartridge. __________________ NSS/CDS Training Chairman www.jpjscuba.com
(Offline)

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