Optima Cartridge

MHD · 1st December 2006, 20:09

Quote: (Originally Posted by Genesis)

Again - what evidence do you have that at any time before the patent expires (and competition is introduced) pricing will come down?

Why not just pocket the extra profits?

I don't have evidence, I have commerical experience. You are right, the costing is impedenant to it's future growth, and the lack of direct competition doesn't help, but the more people (ie manufacturer's) who have capital tied up in use of the product, the more pressure they will bring onto the supplier to get the cost struture better. If people see no value they will make granular adapters, so getting the production process right and getting the cost closer to granular sorb is to their benefit, not detriment.

Matt

Genesis · 1st December 2006, 20:15

Quote: (Originally Posted by MHD)

I don't have evidence, I have commerical experience. You are right, the costing is impedenant to it's future growth, and the lack of direct competition doesn't help, but the more people (ie manufacturer's) who have capital tied up in use of the product, the more pressure they will bring onto the supplier to get the cost struture better. If people see no value they will make granular adapters, so getting the production process right and getting the cost closer to granular sorb is to their benefit, not detriment.

Matt

To use granular in the O2ptima you would significantly cut your duration. The DeepLife unit is using a custom Micropore catridge (NOT the same one currently being sold!), so there'll be no economy there.

If you design for minimum volume using the Micropore cart on a "direct insert" model you will give up significant duration if you make an adapter simply due to the volume lost to the cartridge.

This is a design decision that once taken handcuffs you unless you make an entriely different scrubber bucket and, in all probability, the head since they have to mate. This is not a trivial decision to "undo" once made, nor to work around, and MIcropore knows this.

**Gill Envy** · 1st December 2006, 23:00

so, given the volume of the current EAC, does anyone have a guess on what the duration of that equivalent amount of granular sorb would be. limited duration would not necesarily hold me back. an hour to an hour and a half would at least give people an option to use sorb when that is all that is available. For the type of dives i due, using a smaller canister would mean i could just chuck the unused sorb after each dive without as much waste.

AD_ward9 · 1st December 2006, 23:04

Quote: (Originally Posted by Genesis)

The DeepLife unit is using a custom Micropore catridge (NOT the same one currently being sold!), so there'll be no economy there.

The conclusion is not quite right. The EAC we are using is the future standard EAC, not some custom version only in DL units.

We work with suppliers closely to ensure we understand their products thoroughly and improve those products where it is useful, so when you look at our pre-production units what you sometimes see is a slightly futuristic component - not custom, but not the current product either. This is true of scrubbers, O2 sensors and other parts. In each case, the design decision is made after the manufacturer confirms that the improvement will be standard and available to all users. The improvements tend to be small (we avoid new components in safety critical systems), but significant enough to warrant the change.

This is how modern manufacturing works at its best - a close partnership with design and sales, responsive and always seeking to improve. Micropore and AII are two such companies (we have no axe to grind: we hold no shares in them, nor they in us). As designers, we prefer to work with companies with a passion for having the best product at the right price: it gives the user better products, often at the same or lower price, and ultimately, companies that embrace these partnerships win out commercially.

Alex

Genesis · 2nd December 2006, 00:09

Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9)

The conclusion is not quite right. The EAC we are using is the future standard EAC, not some custom version only in DL units.

We work with suppliers closely to ensure we understand their products thoroughly and improve those products where it is useful, so when you look at our pre-production units what you sometimes see is a slightly futuristic component - not custom, but not the current product either. This is true of scrubbers, O2 sensors and other parts. In each case, the design decision is made after the manufacturer confirms that the improvement will be standard and available to all users. The improvements tend to be small (we avoid new components in safety critical systems), but significant enough to warrant the change.

Yeah Alex, but in this case having the seal rings on the cartridge will mean it won't work in the older cannisters as the "cones" won't seat properly. You need a "lip seal" area for that sort of design. It also means a (small) cost increase in the manufacturing cost for the cartridges, as those seal rings are now disposable. Yes, I know its not a LOT of money (what are a couple of seals - a couple bucks?) but it all adds up.

I agree what you've described IS an improvement, BUT what about the existing units (O2ptimas!) out there NOW? What do we do with those, and who eats the retrofit (again, single-source) costs involved? If you're not using Micropore's "cone" system (the one they package iwth their retrofit cannisters for the Azi and Dolphin) then what - do you have to potentially buy a whole new CAN? If the new design becomes "the standard" and old is discontinued, you either take care of that or your unit is a paperweight, no?

AD_ward9 · 2nd December 2006, 07:51

Quote: (Originally Posted by Genesis)

Yeah Alex, but in this case having the seal rings on the cartridge will mean it won't work in the older cannisters as the "cones" won't seat properly. You need a "lip seal" area for that sort of design. It also means a (small) cost increase in the manufacturing cost for the cartridges, as those seal rings are now disposable. Yes, I know its not a LOT of money (what are a couple of seals - a couple bucks?) but it all adds up.

I agree what you've described IS an improvement, BUT what about the existing units (O2ptimas!) out there NOW? What do we do with those, and who eats the retrofit (again, single-source) costs involved? If you're not using Micropore's "cone" system (the one they package iwth their retrofit cannisters for the Azi and Dolphin) then what - do you have to potentially buy a whole new CAN? If the new design becomes "the standard" and old is discontinued, you either take care of that or your unit is a paperweight, no?

Micropore need to be the people answering some of your questions, which are valid, but the answers as I know them are:

1. The seal is optional. It can be easily removed, which is what you do if fitting it to the Optima cartridge.
2. The improved version is coming out at the same time as cost reductions, so it unlikely to be more expensive.
3. The new version can be fitted to units with Micropore's cone system such as the Optima, as the cap will have a hole in it the same size as the old centre bore.
4. Both Diverite and Micropore I am sure are aware of the importance of supporting existing customers (the most important people in any business).

Cheers,

Alex

Genesis · 2nd December 2006, 12:46

Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9)

Micropore need to be the people answering some of your questions, which are valid, but the answers as I know them are:

1. The seal is optional. It can be easily removed, which is what you do if fitting it to the Optima cartridge.

Which of coruse makes the new design "not new" for those users.

Quote:

2. The improved version is coming out at the same time as cost reductions, so it unlikely to be more expensive.

But there is little reason to believe it will be (materially) less expensive either.

Quote:

3. The new version can be fitted to units with Micropore's cone system such as the Optima, as the cap will have a hole in it the same size as the old centre bore.
4. Both Diverite and Micropore I am sure are aware of the importance of supporting existing customers (the most important people in any business).

Cheers,

Alex

Well sure, to the extent they are now.

Please don't get me wrong - I think changes to the cartridge are actually necessary - beyond the cost factor one of the reasons I did NOT design for it with the K1 was the total lack of support of the cartridge's structure when supported on the outer edge only. Micropore warns about checking for crush damage to the corners (with good reason) but such damage is quite possible in a bouncing boat with the present design, and with a sealed head there'd be no (good) way to detect it. That sort of damage would lead to either partial blockage on a (likely small) percentage of the cartridge and/or a potential for bypass. In addition I don't like reliance on pressure-seals (e.g. axially) on a "soft" medium which can crush, which is how the present cartridge works with the "cones", as it makes any sort of precision on the actual seal impossible. Finally, the "rolled roll" design leaves a "step" on the outer bore which makes using any sort of seal ring around the outside perimeter impossible as well (it won't seal due to the gap)

Anyway, these things, if taken care of with a "fixed" end-cap for each end of the cartridge will be a real improvement and will address these issues.

But that still leaves the cost issue, and the counter-argument to "it'll come down as volume grows" is that Micropore, as a single-source supplier with a patent to protect them from competitors, can also righly claim that since people are buying at the present price, there's no reason for them to lower it!

Given that the "price will come down" claim was made two years ago with a timeframe of 1-2 years, and yet here we are two years later and there has been no reduction in price whatsoever, I'm not buying it.

***caveseeker7*** · 2nd December 2006, 12:52

Quote: (Originally Posted by Genesis)

Which of coruse makes the new design "not new" for those users.

Dude, unless you're buying used cartridges they're all new.

**JPJones** · 5th December 2006, 01:34

Quote: (Originally Posted by Genesis)

And like I said (but which you are refusing to read) I was originally willing to pay for one class, but I was not willing to be forced to use a less-safe gas post-cert (by force, since the computer would be locked out for any helium content whatsoever) nor to come back for a second (and third!) class to get the Trimix PIN.

Today I am not willing to take any of the classes.

Nor will I be at any point in the future since I have now begun the process of being the "crash test dummy" without the class, and, assuming I survive, I will have proven to my satisfaction that the class was not necessary.

I will also have met the accepted standard in the industry for issuing myself a card, since "by the book" the manufacturer of a unit sets the standards for competence. I am therefore authorized, as the manufacturer, to declare any person who has dove the unit under my supervision as competent to whatever limits I as the manufacturer deem warranted.

Indeed, John, that is the very standard by which Lamar (and the other "Crash test" dummies on the O2ptima) gained their card on that unit (that might even include you, no?) If they are able to present that card and have it accepted, then so am I - by those very same rules.

Why would I pay for something I have already demonstrated (to my own satisfaction, and its my tail down there, not anyone else's) that I am competent to do - by the very rules that the diving industry declares "valid"?

DiveRite's game-playing cost them my unit sale and it also cost the agencies and instructors out there the opportunity to sell me the one class I was originally willing to purchase. By attempting to force me to buy $4,500 worth of classes (that is, three times the $1,500 I will willing to spend) they instead have sold me nothing.

No we were not dum enough to train our selves. Tom Mount and I spent a lot of time together before it came out and I borrowed one of his Rebreathers (an Inspiration with HammerHead electronics) to get time on before we started the testing and I did way more than one class. Rudi did Lamar and LeeAnn's basic. I have trained most of the Dive Rite Staff since being retired offered me the time to make the dives and the trips to Toms to take all the classes to get all credentials to do it.

So all of us have cards that were earned the same way everyone else has had to.

Genesis · 5th December 2006, 01:53

Quote: (Originally Posted by JPJones)

No we were not dum enough to train our selves. Tom Mount and I spent a lot of time together before it came out and I borrowed one of his Rebreathers (an Inspiration with HammerHead electronics) to get time on before we started the testing and I did way more than one class.

So then Tom trained himself.

Who did it is not the point. Someone had to.

Quote:

So all of us have cards that were earned the same way everyone else has had to.

Nice try.

It is simply not possible for everyone to "earn them the same way everyone else has to" with any new rebreather.

At least one card must be "minted" out of whole cloth for any specific unit, given the current "state of the industry" in which agencies insist that all CCR cards be unit-specific.

It is not possible for it to be otherwise, because the first person to dive a given unit cannot receive training on it, as there is no person with experience on it to provide same!

Therefore it is perfectly legitimate for the designer of a homebuild, by industry standards, to print their own card, since the first card for any unit must be printed with exactly the same pre-existing unit-specific qualifications.

1st December 2006, 20:09	#41 (permalink)
MHD Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Brisbane, QLD, Australia Posts: 240	Re: Optima Cartridge Quote: (Originally Posted by Genesis) Again - what evidence do you have that at any time before the patent expires (and competition is introduced) pricing will come down? Why not just pocket the extra profits? I don't have evidence, I have commerical experience. You are right, the costing is impedenant to it's future growth, and the lack of direct competition doesn't help, but the more people (ie manufacturer's) who have capital tied up in use of the product, the more pressure they will bring onto the supplier to get the cost struture better. If people see no value they will make granular adapters, so getting the production process right and getting the cost closer to granular sorb is to their benefit, not detriment. Matt
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1st December 2006, 20:15	#42 (permalink)
Genesis Bubbless Box of Death Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Home Build Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Sunny Florida Posts: 1,394	Re: Optima Cartridge Quote: (Originally Posted by MHD) I don't have evidence, I have commerical experience. You are right, the costing is impedenant to it's future growth, and the lack of direct competition doesn't help, but the more people (ie manufacturer's) who have capital tied up in use of the product, the more pressure they will bring onto the supplier to get the cost struture better. If people see no value they will make granular adapters, so getting the production process right and getting the cost closer to granular sorb is to their benefit, not detriment. Matt To use granular in the O2ptima you would significantly cut your duration. The DeepLife unit is using a custom Micropore catridge (NOT the same one currently being sold!), so there'll be no economy there. If you design for minimum volume using the Micropore cart on a "direct insert" model you will give up significant duration if you make an adapter simply due to the volume lost to the cartridge. This is a design decision that once taken handcuffs you unless you make an entriely different scrubber bucket and, in all probability, the head since they have to mate. This is not a trivial decision to "undo" once made, nor to work around, and MIcropore knows this. __________________ "A venturesome minority will always be eager to get off on their own, and no obstacles should be placed in their path; let them take risks for Godsake, let them get lost, sunburnt, stranded, drowned, eaten by bears, buried alive under avalanches - that is the right and privilege of any free American." http://www.denninger.net http://www.diversunion.org/liability.htm - Fix the Diving Cert racket
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1st December 2006, 23:00	#43 (permalink)
Gill Envy Shearwater Copis Diver Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Evolution Other CCR Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: seattle Posts: 1,302	Re: Optima Cartridge so, given the volume of the current EAC, does anyone have a guess on what the duration of that equivalent amount of granular sorb would be. limited duration would not necesarily hold me back. an hour to an hour and a half would at least give people an option to use sorb when that is all that is available. For the type of dives i due, using a smaller canister would mean i could just chuck the unused sorb after each dive without as much waste. __________________ Gill Envy ...Because I wasn't born with gills! ><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>
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1st December 2006, 23:04	#44 (permalink)
AD_ward9 So much more to learn Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Scotland Posts: 1,732	Re: Optima Cartridge Quote: (Originally Posted by Genesis) The DeepLife unit is using a custom Micropore catridge (NOT the same one currently being sold!), so there'll be no economy there. The conclusion is not quite right. The EAC we are using is the future standard EAC, not some custom version only in DL units. We work with suppliers closely to ensure we understand their products thoroughly and improve those products where it is useful, so when you look at our pre-production units what you sometimes see is a slightly futuristic component - not custom, but not the current product either. This is true of scrubbers, O2 sensors and other parts. In each case, the design decision is made after the manufacturer confirms that the improvement will be standard and available to all users. The improvements tend to be small (we avoid new components in safety critical systems), but significant enough to warrant the change. This is how modern manufacturing works at its best - a close partnership with design and sales, responsive and always seeking to improve. Micropore and AII are two such companies (we have no axe to grind: we hold no shares in them, nor they in us). As designers, we prefer to work with companies with a passion for having the best product at the right price: it gives the user better products, often at the same or lower price, and ultimately, companies that embrace these partnerships win out commercially. Alex Last edited by AD_ward9 : 1st December 2006 at 23:41.
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2nd December 2006, 00:09	#45 (permalink)
Genesis Bubbless Box of Death Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Home Build Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Sunny Florida Posts: 1,394	Re: Optima Cartridge Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9) The conclusion is not quite right. The EAC we are using is the future standard EAC, not some custom version only in DL units. We work with suppliers closely to ensure we understand their products thoroughly and improve those products where it is useful, so when you look at our pre-production units what you sometimes see is a slightly futuristic component - not custom, but not the current product either. This is true of scrubbers, O2 sensors and other parts. In each case, the design decision is made after the manufacturer confirms that the improvement will be standard and available to all users. The improvements tend to be small (we avoid new components in safety critical systems), but significant enough to warrant the change. Yeah Alex, but in this case having the seal rings on the cartridge will mean it won't work in the older cannisters as the "cones" won't seat properly. You need a "lip seal" area for that sort of design. It also means a (small) cost increase in the manufacturing cost for the cartridges, as those seal rings are now disposable. Yes, I know its not a LOT of money (what are a couple of seals - a couple bucks?) but it all adds up. I agree what you've described IS an improvement, BUT what about the existing units (O2ptimas!) out there NOW? What do we do with those, and who eats the retrofit (again, single-source) costs involved? If you're not using Micropore's "cone" system (the one they package iwth their retrofit cannisters for the Azi and Dolphin) then what - do you have to potentially buy a whole new CAN? If the new design becomes "the standard" and old is discontinued, you either take care of that or your unit is a paperweight, no? __________________ "A venturesome minority will always be eager to get off on their own, and no obstacles should be placed in their path; let them take risks for Godsake, let them get lost, sunburnt, stranded, drowned, eaten by bears, buried alive under avalanches - that is the right and privilege of any free American." http://www.denninger.net http://www.diversunion.org/liability.htm - Fix the Diving Cert racket
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2nd December 2006, 07:51	#46 (permalink)
AD_ward9 So much more to learn Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Scotland Posts: 1,732	Re: Optima Cartridge Quote: (Originally Posted by Genesis) Yeah Alex, but in this case having the seal rings on the cartridge will mean it won't work in the older cannisters as the "cones" won't seat properly. You need a "lip seal" area for that sort of design. It also means a (small) cost increase in the manufacturing cost for the cartridges, as those seal rings are now disposable. Yes, I know its not a LOT of money (what are a couple of seals - a couple bucks?) but it all adds up. I agree what you've described IS an improvement, BUT what about the existing units (O2ptimas!) out there NOW? What do we do with those, and who eats the retrofit (again, single-source) costs involved? If you're not using Micropore's "cone" system (the one they package iwth their retrofit cannisters for the Azi and Dolphin) then what - do you have to potentially buy a whole new CAN? If the new design becomes "the standard" and old is discontinued, you either take care of that or your unit is a paperweight, no? Micropore need to be the people answering some of your questions, which are valid, but the answers as I know them are: 1. The seal is optional. It can be easily removed, which is what you do if fitting it to the Optima cartridge. 2. The improved version is coming out at the same time as cost reductions, so it unlikely to be more expensive. 3. The new version can be fitted to units with Micropore's cone system such as the Optima, as the cap will have a hole in it the same size as the old centre bore. 4. Both Diverite and Micropore I am sure are aware of the importance of supporting existing customers (the most important people in any business). Cheers, Alex
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2nd December 2006, 12:46	#47 (permalink)
Genesis Bubbless Box of Death Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Home Build Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Sunny Florida Posts: 1,394	Re: Optima Cartridge Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9) Micropore need to be the people answering some of your questions, which are valid, but the answers as I know them are: 1. The seal is optional. It can be easily removed, which is what you do if fitting it to the Optima cartridge. Which of coruse makes the new design "not new" for those users. Quote: 2. The improved version is coming out at the same time as cost reductions, so it unlikely to be more expensive. But there is little reason to believe it will be (materially) less expensive either. Quote: 3. The new version can be fitted to units with Micropore's cone system such as the Optima, as the cap will have a hole in it the same size as the old centre bore. 4. Both Diverite and Micropore I am sure are aware of the importance of supporting existing customers (the most important people in any business). Cheers, Alex Well sure, to the extent they are now. Please don't get me wrong - I think changes to the cartridge are actually necessary - beyond the cost factor one of the reasons I did NOT design for it with the K1 was the total lack of support of the cartridge's structure when supported on the outer edge only. Micropore warns about checking for crush damage to the corners (with good reason) but such damage is quite possible in a bouncing boat with the present design, and with a sealed head there'd be no (good) way to detect it. That sort of damage would lead to either partial blockage on a (likely small) percentage of the cartridge and/or a potential for bypass. In addition I don't like reliance on pressure-seals (e.g. axially) on a "soft" medium which can crush, which is how the present cartridge works with the "cones", as it makes any sort of precision on the actual seal impossible. Finally, the "rolled roll" design leaves a "step" on the outer bore which makes using any sort of seal ring around the outside perimeter impossible as well (it won't seal due to the gap) Anyway, these things, if taken care of with a "fixed" end-cap for each end of the cartridge will be a real improvement and will address these issues. But that still leaves the cost issue, and the counter-argument to "it'll come down as volume grows" is that Micropore, as a single-source supplier with a patent to protect them from competitors, can also righly claim that since people are buying at the present price, there's no reason for them to lower it! Given that the "price will come down" claim was made two years ago with a timeframe of 1-2 years, and yet here we are two years later and there has been no reduction in price whatsoever, I'm not buying it. __________________ "A venturesome minority will always be eager to get off on their own, and no obstacles should be placed in their path; let them take risks for Godsake, let them get lost, sunburnt, stranded, drowned, eaten by bears, buried alive under avalanches - that is the right and privilege of any free American." http://www.denninger.net http://www.diversunion.org/liability.htm - Fix the Diving Cert racket
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2nd December 2006, 12:52	#48 (permalink)
*caveseeker7* Who loves ya, baby Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Too far from Neverland Posts: 5,435	Re: Optima Cartridge Quote: (Originally Posted by Genesis) Which of coruse makes the new design "not new" for those users. Dude, unless you're buying used cartridges they're all new. __________________ Cheers Stefan "Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.'!"
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5th December 2006, 01:34	#49 (permalink)
JPJones O2ptima Test Dummy Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Megalodon Sport Kiss Classic Kiss Optima Titan Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Florida Posts: 367	Re: Optima Cartridge Quote: (Originally Posted by Genesis) And like I said (but which you are refusing to read) I was originally willing to pay for one class, but I was not willing to be forced to use a less-safe gas post-cert (by force, since the computer would be locked out for any helium content whatsoever) nor to come back for a second (and third!) class to get the Trimix PIN. Today I am not willing to take any of the classes. Nor will I be at any point in the future since I have now begun the process of being the "crash test dummy" without the class, and, assuming I survive, I will have proven to my satisfaction that the class was not necessary. I will also have met the accepted standard in the industry for issuing myself a card, since "by the book" the manufacturer of a unit sets the standards for competence. I am therefore authorized, as the manufacturer, to declare any person who has dove the unit under my supervision as competent to whatever limits I as the manufacturer deem warranted. Indeed, John, that is the very standard by which Lamar (and the other "Crash test" dummies on the O2ptima) gained their card on that unit (that might even include you, no?) If they are able to present that card and have it accepted, then so am I - by those very same rules. Why would I pay for something I have already demonstrated (to my own satisfaction, and its my tail down there, not anyone else's) that I am competent to do - by the very rules that the diving industry declares "valid"? DiveRite's game-playing cost them my unit sale and it also cost the agencies and instructors out there the opportunity to sell me the one class I was originally willing to purchase. By attempting to force me to buy $4,500 worth of classes (that is, three times the $1,500 I will willing to spend) they instead have sold me nothing. No we were not dum enough to train our selves. Tom Mount and I spent a lot of time together before it came out and I borrowed one of his Rebreathers (an Inspiration with HammerHead electronics) to get time on before we started the testing and I did way more than one class. Rudi did Lamar and LeeAnn's basic. I have trained most of the Dive Rite Staff since being retired offered me the time to make the dives and the trips to Toms to take all the classes to get all credentials to do it. So all of us have cards that were earned the same way everyone else has had to. __________________ NSS/CDS Training Chairman www.jpjscuba.com
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5th December 2006, 01:53	#50 (permalink)
Genesis Bubbless Box of Death Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Home Build Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Sunny Florida Posts: 1,394	Re: Optima Cartridge Quote: (Originally Posted by JPJones) No we were not dum enough to train our selves. Tom Mount and I spent a lot of time together before it came out and I borrowed one of his Rebreathers (an Inspiration with HammerHead electronics) to get time on before we started the testing and I did way more than one class. So then Tom trained himself. Who did it is not the point. Someone had to. Quote: So all of us have cards that were earned the same way everyone else has had to. Nice try. It is simply not possible for everyone to "earn them the same way everyone else has to" with any new rebreather. At least one card must be "minted" out of whole cloth for any specific unit, given the current "state of the industry" in which agencies insist that all CCR cards be unit-specific. It is not possible for it to be otherwise, because the first person to dive a given unit cannot receive training on it, as there is no person with experience on it to provide same! Therefore it is perfectly legitimate for the designer of a homebuild, by industry standards, to print their own card, since the first card for any unit must be printed with exactly the same pre-existing unit-specific qualifications. __________________ "A venturesome minority will always be eager to get off on their own, and no obstacles should be placed in their path; let them take risks for Godsake, let them get lost, sunburnt, stranded, drowned, eaten by bears, buried alive under avalanches - that is the right and privilege of any free American." http://www.denninger.net http://www.diversunion.org/liability.htm - Fix the Diving Cert racket
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