Optima Cartridge

***ScubaDadMiami*** · 1st December 2006, 02:57

Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9)

It is purely the data has not been put into the public domain.

What I don't get is why it is not put out there for the public to see. Yes, I realize that there will then be those who will be able to claim that the testing was not apples to apples or some such other put down. However, right now, we are relying on word of mouth plus some other "leaked" documentation that manages to get out.

I understand the importance of proprietary business investments. However, it would be the best marketing in the world to publish science based proof.

Hey, I am a believer in the EAC. I have used it on hard working dives to about 200 feet so far, and it performed without a hitch. I have full confidence in it now that I have gone through my personal trials with it. However, it certainly would have been better to have some more information before undergoing my rigorous personal testing.

**Steve** · 1st December 2006, 03:22

I'd love to see it as well. All of the test data I have seen thus far indicates that the cartridges are OK for recreational diving and that is all. Short duration and 0-50m diving.

I am a huge cynic when it comes to the Micropore cartridges and have seen nothing to make me change my mind that they are very early technology that needs a LOT of development to catch up with granular sorb. In every test i have seen they have performed at a level that I deem unsatisfactory.

I still see no advantage in using them in a well designed rebreather as they are expensive, if available and costic coctails have virtually being eliminated by sensible rebreather design (Baffles in T Pieces in OTS lungs)

paulraymaekers · 1st December 2006, 10:34

Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9)

... there is 0.1% to 0.2% CO2 on the outlet after careful packing when the cartridge is horizontal, so we have to test it vertically. This problem is not just on the Inspo cartridge but on most axial designs. On EACs this tunneling problem just does not happen.

Alex

this reason and the 'equal distribution of the gasflow over the inlet of the scrubber' are the reasons for our dual scrubber design:
1 during diving both scrubbers are vertical, and the gasflow is vertical: possibility of tunneling of 2 vertical scrubbers is... very unlikely
2 between the 2 scrubbers (placed in serie) there is a mixingchamber: suppose you have un uneven distribution of flow at the first scrubber, and so only using a part of the scrubber, and after some time you would have a zone in te scrubber that let's trough gas with 0.1 or higher CO2, this gas is mixed with the better scrubbed gas and forced into the second scrubber..

and yet we put the margins of the scrubber low enough :-)
we know that people are pushing the scrubbers to more then 3 hours for 1.4 kg, (using the correct partial changing procedure), and until now it always works... but I surely do not recommend to use a casette more then 2 hours!

paul

AD_ward9 · 1st December 2006, 11:00

Quote: (Originally Posted by paulraymaekers)

this reason and the 'equal distribution of the gasflow over the inlet of the scrubber' are the reasons for our dual scrubber design:

I agree your orientation of scrubber is much better than other axial designs, the tradeoff being it uses more space.

On the series configuration though I have yet to be convinced. We spent a lot of time using scrubbers in series - see the pictures I posted last year of the Open Revolution first prototypes (and second). We did a lot of testing, and eventually we concluded it was a bad idea so redesigned it to use parallel scrubbers (the twin unit pictures posted last month of the commercial unit at DEMA uses parallel scrubbers). This was a shame because the twin serial unit was really small (A4 size, 100mm/4" thick). The tests we did showed one big scrubber better than two serial scrubbers in every respect. For a configuration for very long dives, we usetwo parallel scrubbers with careful attention to gas flow (and active scrubber heaters!). I would be interested to see your figures for breathing resistance and CO2 breakthrough.

Alex

paulraymaekers · 1st December 2006, 11:48

Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9)

I would be interested to see your figures for breathing resistance and CO2 breakthrough.

Alex

I can come over and we test the unit in your breathingmachine :-)
regards
paul

AD_ward9 · 1st December 2006, 12:00

Quote: (Originally Posted by paulraymaekers)

I can come over and we test the unit in your breathingmachine :-)
regards
paul

You're welcome. Don't forget a coat!

Does this mean, it has not been tested yet?

Alex

Crazyduck · 1st December 2006, 13:31

Paul,
Stop talking dirty with the kitty litter- you are getting me excited..

Hope that you have been well sir....
Best Regards, Andrew

Quote: (Originally Posted by paulraymaekers)

this reason and the 'equal distribution of the gasflow over the inlet of the scrubber' are the reasons for our dual scrubber design:

and yet we put the margins of the scrubber low enough :-)

paul

paulraymaekers · 1st December 2006, 15:45

Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9)

You're welcome. Don't forget a coat!

Does this mean, it has not been tested yet?

Alex

if you mean on deep dives, cold water, working, long dives... oh yes, :-)

if you mean on a breathing machine, no :-)

regards
paul

MHD · 1st December 2006, 18:19

Quote: (Originally Posted by Genesis)

I also decided against designing the K1 to take the Micropore carts (I have 4 of 'em here - I bought a case for design and testing purposes) primarily because after a close examination of the evidence I saw no reason to believe they would ever materially drop in price.

Genesis, get off it

The cartridge has recently been adapted to the new biopak rescue rebreather for mines (very modified form http://www.biopak240r.com), you have one more rec unit using it (titan) and most likey the new USN unit will use it and the open revolution unit. Once you get that you will start to get increased volume and have hope for a reduced price. Same with optima sales, it's slowly but surely increasing the market volume. Get a 500 to 1000 optima out there and that alone should make a difference to total volume sold.

Genesis · 1st December 2006, 19:36

Quote: (Originally Posted by MHD)

Genesis, get off it

The cartridge has recently been adapted to the new biopak rescue rebreather for mines (very modified form http://www.biopak240r.com), you have one more rec unit using it (titan) and most likey the new USN unit will use it and the open revolution unit. Once you get that you will start to get increased volume and have hope for a reduced price. Same with optima sales, it's slowly but surely increasing the market volume. Get a 500 to 1000 optima out there and that alone should make a difference to total volume sold.

Again - what evidence do you have that at any time before the patent expires (and competition is introduced) pricing will come down?

Why not just pocket the extra profits?

We were originally told at the time the O2ptima was announced (more than two years ago) that the price of the cartridges would decrease over the following two years.

In fact there has been zero price decrease over those two years.

Why do people keep believing in the Easter Bunny when year after year he fails to appear as promised?

1st December 2006, 02:57	#31 (permalink)
*ScubaDadMiami* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Optima Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Florida, USA Posts: 2,028	Re: Optima Cartridge Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9) It is purely the data has not been put into the public domain. What I don't get is why it is not put out there for the public to see. Yes, I realize that there will then be those who will be able to claim that the testing was not apples to apples or some such other put down. However, right now, we are relying on word of mouth plus some other "leaked" documentation that manages to get out. I understand the importance of proprietary business investments. However, it would be the best marketing in the world to publish science based proof. Hey, I am a believer in the EAC. I have used it on hard working dives to about 200 feet so far, and it performed without a hitch. I have full confidence in it now that I have gone through my personal trials with it. However, it certainly would have been better to have some more information before undergoing my rigorous personal testing. __________________ Howard Packer IANTD CCR Instructor Miami Beach, Florida CCRDiveTraining.com
(Offline)

1st December 2006, 03:22	#32 (permalink)
Steve Ladies bring a plate Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Classic Kiss MK 15.X Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Perth - Australia Posts: 1,092	Re: Optima Cartridge I'd love to see it as well. All of the test data I have seen thus far indicates that the cartridges are OK for recreational diving and that is all. Short duration and 0-50m diving. I am a huge cynic when it comes to the Micropore cartridges and have seen nothing to make me change my mind that they are very early technology that needs a LOT of development to catch up with granular sorb. In every test i have seen they have performed at a level that I deem unsatisfactory. I still see no advantage in using them in a well designed rebreather as they are expensive, if available and costic coctails have virtually being eliminated by sensible rebreather design (Baffles in T Pieces in OTS lungs) __________________ WARNING: I contain occasional coarse language, extreme sexual references, nudity, and adult themes, which may offend some people - Usually churchy types.
(Online)

1st December 2006, 10:34	#33 (permalink)
paulraymaekers rEvo's daddy Current Rebreather/s: rEvo Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: rEvo Other CCR Home Build Join Date: May 2005 Location: belgium Posts: 1,423	Re: Optima Cartridge Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9) ... there is 0.1% to 0.2% CO2 on the outlet after careful packing when the cartridge is horizontal, so we have to test it vertically. This problem is not just on the Inspo cartridge but on most axial designs. On EACs this tunneling problem just does not happen. Alex this reason and the 'equal distribution of the gasflow over the inlet of the scrubber' are the reasons for our dual scrubber design: 1 during diving both scrubbers are vertical, and the gasflow is vertical: possibility of tunneling of 2 vertical scrubbers is... very unlikely 2 between the 2 scrubbers (placed in serie) there is a mixingchamber: suppose you have un uneven distribution of flow at the first scrubber, and so only using a part of the scrubber, and after some time you would have a zone in te scrubber that let's trough gas with 0.1 or higher CO2, this gas is mixed with the better scrubbed gas and forced into the second scrubber.. and yet we put the margins of the scrubber low enough :-) we know that people are pushing the scrubbers to more then 3 hours for 1.4 kg, (using the correct partial changing procedure), and until now it always works... but I surely do not recommend to use a casette more then 2 hours! paul __________________ www.rEvo-rebreathers.com .... the earth is flat, Elvis is alive, and radial scrubbers give longer dwell time than axials...
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1st December 2006, 11:00	#34 (permalink)
AD_ward9 So much more to learn Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Scotland Posts: 1,726	Re: Optima Cartridge Quote: (Originally Posted by paulraymaekers) this reason and the 'equal distribution of the gasflow over the inlet of the scrubber' are the reasons for our dual scrubber design: I agree your orientation of scrubber is much better than other axial designs, the tradeoff being it uses more space. On the series configuration though I have yet to be convinced. We spent a lot of time using scrubbers in series - see the pictures I posted last year of the Open Revolution first prototypes (and second). We did a lot of testing, and eventually we concluded it was a bad idea so redesigned it to use parallel scrubbers (the twin unit pictures posted last month of the commercial unit at DEMA uses parallel scrubbers). This was a shame because the twin serial unit was really small (A4 size, 100mm/4" thick). The tests we did showed one big scrubber better than two serial scrubbers in every respect. For a configuration for very long dives, we usetwo parallel scrubbers with careful attention to gas flow (and active scrubber heaters!). I would be interested to see your figures for breathing resistance and CO2 breakthrough. Alex Last edited by AD_ward9 : 1st December 2006 at 11:07.
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1st December 2006, 11:48	#35 (permalink)
paulraymaekers rEvo's daddy Current Rebreather/s: rEvo Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: rEvo Other CCR Home Build Join Date: May 2005 Location: belgium Posts: 1,423	Re: Optima Cartridge Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9) I would be interested to see your figures for breathing resistance and CO2 breakthrough. Alex I can come over and we test the unit in your breathingmachine :-) regards paul __________________ www.rEvo-rebreathers.com .... the earth is flat, Elvis is alive, and radial scrubbers give longer dwell time than axials...
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1st December 2006, 12:00	#36 (permalink)
AD_ward9 So much more to learn Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Scotland Posts: 1,726	Re: Optima Cartridge Quote: (Originally Posted by paulraymaekers) I can come over and we test the unit in your breathingmachine :-) regards paul You're welcome. Don't forget a coat! Does this mean, it has not been tested yet? Alex
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1st December 2006, 13:31	#37 (permalink)
Crazyduck Underwater Mechanic Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: TEXAS, Dallas/ Ft.Worth Posts: 702	Re: Optima Cartridge Paul, Stop talking dirty with the kitty litter- you are getting me excited.. Hope that you have been well sir.... Best Regards, Andrew Quote: (Originally Posted by paulraymaekers) this reason and the 'equal distribution of the gasflow over the inlet of the scrubber' are the reasons for our dual scrubber design: and yet we put the margins of the scrubber low enough :-) paul __________________ Howdy Senor- What’s Happening! Rob Davie April 2005- Presently in a state of transition from Open Circuit to Closed Circuit. "You will not be punished for your anger; you will be punished by it." - Buddha.
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1st December 2006, 15:45	#38 (permalink)
paulraymaekers rEvo's daddy Current Rebreather/s: rEvo Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: rEvo Other CCR Home Build Join Date: May 2005 Location: belgium Posts: 1,423	Re: Optima Cartridge Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9) You're welcome. Don't forget a coat! Does this mean, it has not been tested yet? Alex if you mean on deep dives, cold water, working, long dives... oh yes, :-) if you mean on a breathing machine, no :-) regards paul __________________ www.rEvo-rebreathers.com .... the earth is flat, Elvis is alive, and radial scrubbers give longer dwell time than axials...
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1st December 2006, 18:19	#39 (permalink)
MHD Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Brisbane, QLD, Australia Posts: 240	Re: Optima Cartridge Quote: (Originally Posted by Genesis) I also decided against designing the K1 to take the Micropore carts (I have 4 of 'em here - I bought a case for design and testing purposes) primarily because after a close examination of the evidence I saw no reason to believe they would ever materially drop in price. Genesis, get off it The cartridge has recently been adapted to the new biopak rescue rebreather for mines (very modified form http://www.biopak240r.com), you have one more rec unit using it (titan) and most likey the new USN unit will use it and the open revolution unit. Once you get that you will start to get increased volume and have hope for a reduced price. Same with optima sales, it's slowly but surely increasing the market volume. Get a 500 to 1000 optima out there and that alone should make a difference to total volume sold.
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1st December 2006, 19:36	#40 (permalink)
Genesis Bubbless Box of Death Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Home Build Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Sunny Florida Posts: 1,394	Re: Optima Cartridge Quote: (Originally Posted by MHD) Genesis, get off it The cartridge has recently been adapted to the new biopak rescue rebreather for mines (very modified form http://www.biopak240r.com), you have one more rec unit using it (titan) and most likey the new USN unit will use it and the open revolution unit. Once you get that you will start to get increased volume and have hope for a reduced price. Same with optima sales, it's slowly but surely increasing the market volume. Get a 500 to 1000 optima out there and that alone should make a difference to total volume sold. Again - what evidence do you have that at any time before the patent expires (and competition is introduced) pricing will come down? Why not just pocket the extra profits? We were originally told at the time the O2ptima was announced (more than two years ago) that the price of the cartridges would decrease over the following two years. In fact there has been zero price decrease over those two years. Why do people keep believing in the Easter Bunny when year after year he fails to appear as promised? __________________ "A venturesome minority will always be eager to get off on their own, and no obstacles should be placed in their path; let them take risks for Godsake, let them get lost, sunburnt, stranded, drowned, eaten by bears, buried alive under avalanches - that is the right and privilege of any free American." http://www.denninger.net http://www.diversunion.org/liability.htm - Fix the Diving Cert racket
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