Optima Cartridge

Genesis · 29th November 2006, 20:28

I also decided against designing the K1 to take the Micropore carts (I have 4 of 'em here - I bought a case for design and testing purposes) primarily because after a close examination of the evidence I saw no reason to believe they would ever materially drop in price.

At least not until the patents that Micropore holds on them expire and someone else starts making them! And that assumes big demand - big enough to make it worthwhile for someone else to crank up a plant.

As for not buying an O2ptima, ask Edd - I had an order in for one through him, despite the fact that we all were materially misled (to the tune of nearly 70%!) on its "actual to be delivered" price. It was only when DiveRite decided to play games with the PIN nonsense (which they have since rescinded) that I canceled the order and decided to build.

This industry has a history of being years late and many dollars more expensive than promised. There's not one unit out there that I'm aware of that comes truly "ready to dive in a config you'll want" off-the-shelf. Everyone I talk to says that for your typical "$8,000" rebreather by the time you have your silly plastic card in hand and are actually diving it you'll have spent $10-13,000 - no matter what color it is. That's anywhere from 25 to 70% over "quoted cost."

When the O2ptima was released I (along with many others) had high hopes that DiveRite was truly going to "charge ahead". Instead they did almost precisely what ever other firm that has introduced a rebreather did - prices radically over original quotes, delivery times six months or more behind schedule, attempted nannyisms that surpassed (instead of just meeting) industry norms, etc.

Anyone who believes claims that prices on the cartridges will "come down" over time, given the available evidence, has IMHO had too many hits off the bong.

There are reasons to like the Micropore cartridge but on a dollars-per-unit-of-use basis they're not even in the game.

paulraymaekers · 29th November 2006, 20:44

Quote: (Originally Posted by Genesis)

A granular adapter is likely to result in a significantly shorter duration.....

why would that be???

regards
paul

**Gill Envy** · 29th November 2006, 21:00

I would think that DR would look at all the rangling and realise that a lot of us keep beating this dead horse because we are actually quite attracted to the optima but the exclusivity of the EAC is a deal breaker... how hard could it really be to make an optional sorb adapter for those occasion when the EAC is not available. a sorb adapter and a temp stick and you just might have me making the switch.

Genesis · 29th November 2006, 22:00

Quote: (Originally Posted by paulraymaekers)

why would that be???

regards
paul

The overhead of the adapter's size plus density. I bet you can't get 4.5lbs of loose sorb in the place where the EAC goes - that's the approximate weight of the cartridge.

Nonetheless, there are plenty of times where a 2-3 hour scrubber (e.g. 4lbs of loose pack) is more than enough (e.g. a pair of recreational dives off a charter boat, etc) and there the EAC is just murderously expensive. I can buy two Nitrox fills for $20, yet one EAC is $30, I've still got to buy the gas, AND I have to toss the EAC after the two rec dives. Look at the SportKiss - it has a shorter duration but that saves you money if you don't need the longer/deeper for a given dive!

This is where a loose fill can would make a difference - those "lighter dives" that don't merit a full load of sorb in existing units, yet leave you tossing out a LOT of media. This is one of the reasons that the K1 has a mechanism where you can fill it half-full (and use 4-8 if you want) - for a pair of recreational dives (quite common in most places!) this makes the operating cost downright cheap. The tradeoff on the K1 for doing this is that you need to add 3lbs to the weight belt since you took that out of the cannister!

Its also what I consider to be a BIG design omission on most commercial units. You have to fill them "full" even if there's no intention to use them for a dive or series of dives where that makes sense. This leads to people doing things like removing half-spent cartridges and sealing them in a bag - sooner or later you're going to make a serious mistake doing that and put a nearly-spent cartridge back in and go for a long, deep... and maybe last dip.

While this is hard (or impossible) to address on a radial, its not on an axial can if you think it through.

**Gill Envy** · 29th November 2006, 23:42

Quote: (Originally Posted by Genesis)

This leads to people doing things like removing half-spent cartridges and sealing them in a bag - sooner or later you're going to make a serious mistake doing that and put a nearly-spent cartridge back in and go for a long, deep... and maybe last dip.

a pre breathe on the temp stick takes that one out of the equation for me...didn't someone say the new optima prototype has a temp stick and co2 sensor?

mattmexico · 29th November 2006, 23:51

yo

Not living in the U.S. and having the need for them cartridges brings up the price for each cartridge to $ 45.00 usd here in Mexico.

greetings
Matt

My biggest issue with the O2ptima is the cost of the cartridges. Its just flat-out excessive. 4 "fills" for $120ish is the going rate, and that's about double the cost of granular in most cannister designs.[/quote]

jaap · 30th November 2006, 00:02

Quote: (Originally Posted by Gill Envy)

any word on a granular adapter for sorb?

I made a DIY quick and dirty granular adapter.

I have tried it and it works. No idea of how efficient it is.
Since the only spring like thing in it is the compression of the filter pad careful packing is very important.

What I did was to simply remove the conical inner part in the lid. Cut a filter pad to size. Make a well perforated plexi disc that fits snugly. I did not remove any parts from the other end of the scrubber. But there is of course another perforated disc and pad in that end.

The filter pad is ~2 cm thick, the fill needs to be even and packed so that it compresses the filter pad to about half its thickness when the cannister is closed. This part is somewhat scary since there is always the risk of channeling if the sorb settles since the current pads configuration can only compensate for a very limited settling.

A better spring loading and maybe some baffles would probably improve this sort of thing. Anyway its a _crude_ attempt at a sorb adapter.

Hmm I need to go clean my nails...

**JPJones** · 30th November 2006, 15:26

Quote: (Originally Posted by paulraymaekers)

why would that be???

regards
paul

Canister size, the ctridge gets more time for the same size.

**JPJones** · 30th November 2006, 15:27

Quote: (Originally Posted by Gill Envy)

I would think that DR would look at all the rangling and realise that a lot of us keep beating this dead horse because we are actually quite attracted to the optima but the exclusivity of the EAC is a deal breaker... how hard could it really be to make an optional sorb adapter for those occasion when the EAC is not available. a sorb adapter and a temp stick and you just might have me making the switch.

Just time and money that Lamar thinks can be better spent else where.

**JPJones** · 30th November 2006, 15:37

As for not buying an O2ptima, ask Edd - I had an order in for one through him, despite the fact that we all were materially misled (to the tune of nearly 70%!) on its "actual to be delivered" price. It was only when DiveRite decided to play games with the PIN nonsense (which they have since rescinded) that I canceled the order and decided to build.

Like I said you don't want to have to get training and the pin still goes to the Instructor unless you are already trained on the Optima.

29th November 2006, 20:28	#11 (permalink)
Genesis Bubbless Box of Death Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Home Build Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Sunny Florida Posts: 1,396	Re: Optima Cartridge I also decided against designing the K1 to take the Micropore carts (I have 4 of 'em here - I bought a case for design and testing purposes) primarily because after a close examination of the evidence I saw no reason to believe they would ever materially drop in price. At least not until the patents that Micropore holds on them expire and someone else starts making them! And that assumes big demand - big enough to make it worthwhile for someone else to crank up a plant. As for not buying an O2ptima, ask Edd - I had an order in for one through him, despite the fact that we all were materially misled (to the tune of nearly 70%!) on its "actual to be delivered" price. It was only when DiveRite decided to play games with the PIN nonsense (which they have since rescinded) that I canceled the order and decided to build. This industry has a history of being years late and many dollars more expensive than promised. There's not one unit out there that I'm aware of that comes truly "ready to dive in a config you'll want" off-the-shelf. Everyone I talk to says that for your typical "$8,000" rebreather by the time you have your silly plastic card in hand and are actually diving it you'll have spent $10-13,000 - no matter what color it is. That's anywhere from 25 to 70% over "quoted cost." When the O2ptima was released I (along with many others) had high hopes that DiveRite was truly going to "charge ahead". Instead they did almost precisely what ever other firm that has introduced a rebreather did - prices radically over original quotes, delivery times six months or more behind schedule, attempted nannyisms that surpassed (instead of just meeting) industry norms, etc. Anyone who believes claims that prices on the cartridges will "come down" over time, given the available evidence, has IMHO had too many hits off the bong. There are reasons to like the Micropore cartridge but on a dollars-per-unit-of-use basis they're not even in the game. __________________ "A venturesome minority will always be eager to get off on their own, and no obstacles should be placed in their path; let them take risks for Godsake, let them get lost, sunburnt, stranded, drowned, eaten by bears, buried alive under avalanches - that is the right and privilege of any free American." http://www.denninger.net http://www.diversunion.org/liability.htm - Fix the Diving Cert racket
(Online)

29th November 2006, 20:44	#12 (permalink)
paulraymaekers rEvo's daddy Current Rebreather/s: rEvo Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: rEvo Other CCR Home Build Join Date: May 2005 Location: belgium Posts: 1,498	Re: Optima Cartridge Quote: (Originally Posted by Genesis) A granular adapter is likely to result in a significantly shorter duration..... why would that be??? regards paul __________________ www.rEvo-rebreathers.com .... the earth is flat, Elvis is alive, and radial scrubbers give longer dwell time than axials...
(Online)

29th November 2006, 21:00	#13 (permalink)
Gill Envy Shearwater Copis Divers Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Evolution Other CCR Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: seattle Posts: 1,326	Re: Optima Cartridge I would think that DR would look at all the rangling and realise that a lot of us keep beating this dead horse because we are actually quite attracted to the optima but the exclusivity of the EAC is a deal breaker... how hard could it really be to make an optional sorb adapter for those occasion when the EAC is not available. a sorb adapter and a temp stick and you just might have me making the switch. __________________ Gill Envy ...Because I wasn't born with gills! ><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>
(Offline)

29th November 2006, 22:00	#14 (permalink)
Genesis Bubbless Box of Death Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Home Build Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Sunny Florida Posts: 1,396	Re: Optima Cartridge Quote: (Originally Posted by paulraymaekers) why would that be??? regards paul The overhead of the adapter's size plus density. I bet you can't get 4.5lbs of loose sorb in the place where the EAC goes - that's the approximate weight of the cartridge. Nonetheless, there are plenty of times where a 2-3 hour scrubber (e.g. 4lbs of loose pack) is more than enough (e.g. a pair of recreational dives off a charter boat, etc) and there the EAC is just murderously expensive. I can buy two Nitrox fills for $20, yet one EAC is $30, I've still got to buy the gas, AND I have to toss the EAC after the two rec dives. Look at the SportKiss - it has a shorter duration but that saves you money if you don't need the longer/deeper for a given dive! This is where a loose fill can would make a difference - those "lighter dives" that don't merit a full load of sorb in existing units, yet leave you tossing out a LOT of media. This is one of the reasons that the K1 has a mechanism where you can fill it half-full (and use 4-8 if you want) - for a pair of recreational dives (quite common in most places!) this makes the operating cost downright cheap. The tradeoff on the K1 for doing this is that you need to add 3lbs to the weight belt since you took that out of the cannister! Its also what I consider to be a BIG design omission on most commercial units. You have to fill them "full" even if there's no intention to use them for a dive or series of dives where that makes sense. This leads to people doing things like removing half-spent cartridges and sealing them in a bag - sooner or later you're going to make a serious mistake doing that and put a nearly-spent cartridge back in and go for a long, deep... and maybe last dip. While this is hard (or impossible) to address on a radial, its not on an axial can if you think it through. __________________ "A venturesome minority will always be eager to get off on their own, and no obstacles should be placed in their path; let them take risks for Godsake, let them get lost, sunburnt, stranded, drowned, eaten by bears, buried alive under avalanches - that is the right and privilege of any free American." http://www.denninger.net http://www.diversunion.org/liability.htm - Fix the Diving Cert racket Last edited by Genesis : 29th November 2006 at 22:06.
(Online)

29th November 2006, 23:42	#15 (permalink)
Gill Envy Shearwater Copis Divers Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Evolution Other CCR Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: seattle Posts: 1,326	Re: Optima Cartridge Quote: (Originally Posted by Genesis) This leads to people doing things like removing half-spent cartridges and sealing them in a bag - sooner or later you're going to make a serious mistake doing that and put a nearly-spent cartridge back in and go for a long, deep... and maybe last dip. a pre breathe on the temp stick takes that one out of the equation for me...didn't someone say the new optima prototype has a temp stick and co2 sensor? __________________ Gill Envy ...Because I wasn't born with gills! ><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>
(Offline)

29th November 2006, 23:51	#16 (permalink)
mattmexico Rebreather World Writer Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Classic Kiss Optima RB80 / Clone Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Evolution Prism Topaz Sport Kiss RB80 / Clone Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Mexico, Q.Roo, Playa del Carmen Posts: 764	Re: Optima Cartridge yo Not living in the U.S. and having the need for them cartridges brings up the price for each cartridge to $ 45.00 usd here in Mexico. greetings Matt My biggest issue with the O2ptima is the cost of the cartridges. Its just flat-out excessive. 4 "fills" for $120ish is the going rate, and that's about double the cost of granular in most cannister designs.[/quote] __________________ N 20' 37.617' W 87' 04.693' www.andreaswmatthes.com
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30th November 2006, 15:26	#18 (permalink)
JPJones O2ptima Test Dummy Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Megalodon Sport Kiss Classic Kiss Optima Titan Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Florida Posts: 367	Re: Optima Cartridge Quote: (Originally Posted by paulraymaekers) why would that be??? regards paul Canister size, the ctridge gets more time for the same size. __________________ NSS/CDS Training Chairman www.jpjscuba.com
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30th November 2006, 15:27	#19 (permalink)
JPJones O2ptima Test Dummy Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Megalodon Sport Kiss Classic Kiss Optima Titan Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Florida Posts: 367	Re: Optima Cartridge Quote: (Originally Posted by Gill Envy) I would think that DR would look at all the rangling and realise that a lot of us keep beating this dead horse because we are actually quite attracted to the optima but the exclusivity of the EAC is a deal breaker... how hard could it really be to make an optional sorb adapter for those occasion when the EAC is not available. a sorb adapter and a temp stick and you just might have me making the switch. Just time and money that Lamar thinks can be better spent else where. __________________ NSS/CDS Training Chairman www.jpjscuba.com
(Offline)

30th November 2006, 15:37	#20 (permalink)
JPJones O2ptima Test Dummy Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Megalodon Sport Kiss Classic Kiss Optima Titan Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Florida Posts: 367	Re: Optima Cartridge As for not buying an O2ptima, ask Edd - I had an order in for one through him, despite the fact that we all were materially misled (to the tune of nearly 70%!) on its "actual to be delivered" price. It was only when DiveRite decided to play games with the PIN nonsense (which they have since rescinded) that I canceled the order and decided to build. Like I said you don't want to have to get training and the pin still goes to the Instructor unless you are already trained on the Optima. __________________ NSS/CDS Training Chairman www.jpjscuba.com
(Offline)

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