Need info on Optima

zmcave · 10th May 2006, 01:06

nice video!
I wish the resolution was better though...

How did you find it? Any more of those?

cheers,

Zé.

***caveseeker7*** · 10th May 2006, 02:26

Quote: (Originally Posted by n2diving)

Besides a good bit of diving on the Optima at the depths discussed...
there is some published test data on the unit at 10 ATA.... see..
http://www.diveriteexpress.com/libra...2testing.shtml

CO2 breakthrough after 30some minutes isn't exactly a shining example of
good performance. "Good bits of diving" are more impressive than that.

Add-ited:
That's just my personal opinion, of course, and I don't want to knock the Optima.
It seems like a well build and generally well functioning rebreather. I believe that the cartridge will be controversial for some time to come, with many people enjoying the easy of use, appreciating the much reduced chance of caustic cocktails and willing to live with the higher cost and plastic trash. Other will distrust it and refuse to pay the premium.

Personally I believe that the cartridge is a step in the right direction and an improvement over axial granular scrubbers. Performance seems to be alike and a reasonable case can be made for the handling advantages. Once it becomes readily available in more locations, and Micropore will be able to get the price to a competitive level I would hope the technology becomes more widely available.

On the other hand radial scrubbers, may it be the ones currently available in form of the Azimuth, PRISM, Ouroboros, older designs like the UT240's or upcoming ones like the Meg's are way ahead in performance. The same I believe to be true for the annular axial design of the MK15.5/16, which for all practical purposes has like characteristics (wide but shallow scrubber bed).

For extreme diving I would prefer any of these over either cartridge or axial scrubbers, but that is just my personal preference.

Back to Jeff's original post, the best I can tell you is do your research and do it well. If you get a chance do intros on units you consider with an instructor to get a first hand look and feel for it. Be around when the rebreather is prepped for diving and ask questions. The PRISM and Optima are quite different, not just the scrubber but also the electronics. Understand what either will and will not do, and see what fits you, not someone else.

I prefer the simple PRISM electronics over the more feature rich alternatives as I believe there is safety in simplicity, at least for me. Much as I admire the Ouroboros for example, the VR3 already had me scratching my head so it's probably not the rebreather for me.

If any rebreather is worth the wait largely depends on how frustrating that wait is for the person in line. On merits I do believe the PRISM is worth it, but that doesn't mean you can or want to put with it.

Jeffrey C Gershen · 10th May 2006, 11:03

Thank you all for your input. I haven't spoken to my thread but I am sure it didn't feel hijacked

I am going to look very closely at the optima, no one had anything really bad to say other than the issue of scrubber longevity and scubber cost. I assume that scrubber longevity is not a function of depth for if it were, then maybe the solution is shallower dives - 150 - 200 fsw. As to the cost of the self contained scurbber, if it is say $100/unit, one would have to use 30+ units to spend as much money as the intial cost of a Meg or an Inspiration. And remember those ccr's cost money to refurbisih the absorbent as well. I am getting closer to a decision and all of your input has really helped!!!!!

***jradomski*** · 10th May 2006, 11:17

Quote: (Originally Posted by Jeffrey C Gershen)

Thank you all for your input. I haven't spoken to my thread but I am sure it didn't feel hijacked

I am going to look very closely at the optima, no one had anything really bad to say other than the issue of scrubber longevity and scubber cost. I assume that scrubber longevity is not a function of depth for if it were, then maybe the solution is shallower dives - 150 - 200 fsw. As to the cost of the self contained scurbber, if it is say $100/unit, one would have to use 30+ units to spend as much money as the intial cost of a Meg or an Inspiration. And remember those ccr's cost money to refurbisih the absorbent as well. I am getting closer to a decision and all of your input has really helped!!!!!

duration IS dependent on depth! The deeper you go the quicker the scrubber breaks through..

for example the Inspiration scrubber is rated at 180minutes at 20m but only about 80minutes at 100m (considerably longer than the 30 minutes @ 100m for the Micropore scrubber)

WIth a 30minute rating at 100m, you probably cant go much deeper than this safely.. ALso if its 30 minutes,I would probably keep my maximum BT at depth some where around 15 minutes or so to keep a reasonable margin and allow for deep stops.

diverklondike · 10th May 2006, 12:21

Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski)

duration IS dependent on depth! The deeper you go the quicker the scrubber breaks through..

for example the Inspiration scrubber is rated at 180minutes at 20m but only about 80minutes at 100m (considerably longer than the 30 minutes @ 100m for the Micropore scrubber)

WIth a 30minute rating at 100m, you probably cant go much deeper than this safely.. ALso if its 30 minutes,I would probably keep my maximum BT at depth some where around 15 minutes or so to keep a reasonable margin and allow for deep stops.

Joe,

To be fair I think it's not appropreate to state the the cartridge information that was posted are "ratings". They are simply the results of testing with a particular set of conditions. Time, Depth, Temp, C02 etc...

As far as the Inspiration is concerned, are you suggesting that a 100m dive for 80 minutes with deco using the standard scrubber would be within a set of published acceptable duration limits?? hmmm I think this would run past the 3 hour duration that AP publicly states...

Dive Safe....

Mark

**JPJones** · 10th May 2006, 13:11

Quote: (Originally Posted by JonnyB)

And yet you have the O2ptima test dummie under your name

Kidding aside, as i said, to my knowledge. I now do know of you that dives it to 300.
Still, i would like to hear from someone that took it to 500 f.ex just to see that it is possible. If an expert can take it to 500, i might be able to take it 300 without any problem of the scrubber duration. Lets say that i have a above average production of CO2/Min comparing to you that have less than average. And you dive it to 300ft and say that this is just fine. Then i go, trimix certified of course. And i die because of a break through. I know this is an extreme example. But what i wanted to say is that if you with a less than average production dive it to 500ft then perhaps me with above average will be able to take it to 300ft. Is that a logical thought?

/Jonny

The Micropore cartridge has has been tested at 10ata and published the results. There are only a couple of people that I would make a 500 ft dive with and I'm not sure I would post that I have done it afterwards. That type of dive has a lot more to do with the diver than the equiptment and anyone that needs to go to any list to see if it could be done doesn't need to make the dive.

There has beeen a lot of testing to make sure that the Optima will preform well within normal limits 100 meters, 330ft and I am very confortable in recommending it to those depths.

***jradomski*** · 10th May 2006, 18:54

Quote: (Originally Posted by diverklondike)

Joe,

To be fair I think it's not appropreate to state the the cartridge information that was posted are "ratings". They are simply the results of testing with a particular set of conditions. Time, Depth, Temp, C02 etc...

As far as the Inspiration is concerned, are you suggesting that a 100m dive for 80 minutes with deco using the standard scrubber would be within a set of published acceptable duration limits?? hmmm I think this would run past the 3 hour duration that AP publicly states...

Dive Safe....

Mark

no but about half of the breakthrough time is (when adjusted for low co2 production during deco), which is what I suggested on th MP cartridge.. If that test result showed breakthrough at 30 minutes, I wouldn't risk a 30 minute dive! Plus the testing was done at 1.1lpm, the Inspiration breakthrough was still tested at 1.6lpm (and 11atm vs 10atm).. that (using 1.1lpm) would probably translate to probably 30 minutes or so onto the breakthrough time on a INSP scrubber.

You know how deep and how long I have done on the standard INSP scrubber where we monitored O2 consumption to get a reasonable comparison for CO2 production (you do know how much co2 can be absorbed).. I definately would not have attempted any of those dives on a MP cartridge..

as to APS "3 hour rating", they have always worded it specifying at 1.6lpm.. The literature always implied lower production would yield longer durations..

***caveseeker7*** · 10th May 2006, 18:55

Quote: (Originally Posted by Jeffrey C Gershen)

And remember those ccr's cost money to refurbisih the absorbent as well.

A box of four cartridges cost $129.
That's $32.25/fill, and at the 3 hour Optima rating $10.75/hour.

A 37 lbs pail of Sodasorb 6-12 costs $99.00, good for 6 scrubber fills.
That's $2.68/lbs or about $16 per fill, and at the PRISM's 5 hour rating $3.20/hour.

Depending on how many hours you dive it will add up and eat up the Optima's price advantage in the long run. The rather expensive SAFT batteries versus the PRISM's cheapo 9V batteries don't change that equation either.

***jradomski*** · 10th May 2006, 19:47

Quote: (Originally Posted by caveseeker7)

The rather expensive SAFT batteries versus the PRISM's cheapo 9V batteries don't change that equation either.

SAfts are great if you don't want to change batteries every 6 hours ish..
otherwise just get Bulk aa alkalines for $.05 each... cheaper than those "cheap" 9V.. even at Home depot You could get them for $0.34 each, or $0.68 per 6 hours/per pair (conservative changes)

***caveseeker7*** · 10th May 2006, 20:20

Stickler!

9V = $3 @ local supermarket, 40 hrs.

10th May 2006, 01:06	#21 (permalink)
zmcave www.rebreather.com.br Current Rebreather/s: Optima Dolphin Other Rebreather/s: Optima Dolphin Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Brazil Posts: 187	Re: Need info on Optima nice video! I wish the resolution was better though... How did you find it? Any more of those? cheers, Zé.
(Online)

10th May 2006, 02:26	#22 (permalink)
*caveseeker7* Who loves ya, baby Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Too far from Neverland Posts: 5,451	Quote: (Originally Posted by n2diving) Besides a good bit of diving on the Optima at the depths discussed... there is some published test data on the unit at 10 ATA.... see.. http://www.diveriteexpress.com/libra...2testing.shtml CO2 breakthrough after 30some minutes isn't exactly a shining example of good performance. "Good bits of diving" are more impressive than that. Add-ited: That's just my personal opinion, of course, and I don't want to knock the Optima. It seems like a well build and generally well functioning rebreather. I believe that the cartridge will be controversial for some time to come, with many people enjoying the easy of use, appreciating the much reduced chance of caustic cocktails and willing to live with the higher cost and plastic trash. Other will distrust it and refuse to pay the premium. Personally I believe that the cartridge is a step in the right direction and an improvement over axial granular scrubbers. Performance seems to be alike and a reasonable case can be made for the handling advantages. Once it becomes readily available in more locations, and Micropore will be able to get the price to a competitive level I would hope the technology becomes more widely available. On the other hand radial scrubbers, may it be the ones currently available in form of the Azimuth, PRISM, Ouroboros, older designs like the UT240's or upcoming ones like the Meg's are way ahead in performance. The same I believe to be true for the annular axial design of the MK15.5/16, which for all practical purposes has like characteristics (wide but shallow scrubber bed). For extreme diving I would prefer any of these over either cartridge or axial scrubbers, but that is just my personal preference. Back to Jeff's original post, the best I can tell you is do your research and do it well. If you get a chance do intros on units you consider with an instructor to get a first hand look and feel for it. Be around when the rebreather is prepped for diving and ask questions. The PRISM and Optima are quite different, not just the scrubber but also the electronics. Understand what either will and will not do, and see what fits you, not someone else. I prefer the simple PRISM electronics over the more feature rich alternatives as I believe there is safety in simplicity, at least for me. Much as I admire the Ouroboros for example, the VR3 already had me scratching my head so it's probably not the rebreather for me. If any rebreather is worth the wait largely depends on how frustrating that wait is for the person in line. On merits I do believe the PRISM is worth it, but that doesn't mean you can or want to put with it. __________________ Cheers Stefan "Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.!" Last edited by caveseeker7 : 10th May 2006 at 03:34. Reason: content & spelling
(Offline)

10th May 2006, 11:03	#23 (permalink)
Jeffrey C Gershen New Member Current Rebreather/s: Evolution Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Pound Ridge, NY, USA Posts: 62	Re: Need info on Optima Thank you all for your input. I haven't spoken to my thread but I am sure it didn't feel hijacked I am going to look very closely at the optima, no one had anything really bad to say other than the issue of scrubber longevity and scubber cost. I assume that scrubber longevity is not a function of depth for if it were, then maybe the solution is shallower dives - 150 - 200 fsw. As to the cost of the self contained scurbber, if it is say $100/unit, one would have to use 30+ units to spend as much money as the intial cost of a Meg or an Inspiration. And remember those ccr's cost money to refurbisih the absorbent as well. I am getting closer to a decision and all of your input has really helped!!!!!
(Offline)

10th May 2006, 11:17	#24 (permalink)
*jradomski* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx Posts: 3,007	Re: Need info on Optima Quote: (Originally Posted by Jeffrey C Gershen) Thank you all for your input. I haven't spoken to my thread but I am sure it didn't feel hijacked I am going to look very closely at the optima, no one had anything really bad to say other than the issue of scrubber longevity and scubber cost. I assume that scrubber longevity is not a function of depth for if it were, then maybe the solution is shallower dives - 150 - 200 fsw. As to the cost of the self contained scurbber, if it is say $100/unit, one would have to use 30+ units to spend as much money as the intial cost of a Meg or an Inspiration. And remember those ccr's cost money to refurbisih the absorbent as well. I am getting closer to a decision and all of your input has really helped!!!!! duration IS dependent on depth! The deeper you go the quicker the scrubber breaks through.. for example the Inspiration scrubber is rated at 180minutes at 20m but only about 80minutes at 100m (considerably longer than the 30 minutes @ 100m for the Micropore scrubber) WIth a 30minute rating at 100m, you probably cant go much deeper than this safely.. ALso if its 30 minutes,I would probably keep my maximum BT at depth some where around 15 minutes or so to keep a reasonable margin and allow for deep stops. __________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated. Last edited by jradomski : 10th May 2006 at 11:20.
(Online)

10th May 2006, 12:21	#25 (permalink)
diverklondike Just one of the Peasants Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Delaware, USA Posts: 1,613	Re: Need info on Optima Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski) duration IS dependent on depth! The deeper you go the quicker the scrubber breaks through.. for example the Inspiration scrubber is rated at 180minutes at 20m but only about 80minutes at 100m (considerably longer than the 30 minutes @ 100m for the Micropore scrubber) WIth a 30minute rating at 100m, you probably cant go much deeper than this safely.. ALso if its 30 minutes,I would probably keep my maximum BT at depth some where around 15 minutes or so to keep a reasonable margin and allow for deep stops. Joe, To be fair I think it's not appropreate to state the the cartridge information that was posted are "ratings". They are simply the results of testing with a particular set of conditions. Time, Depth, Temp, C02 etc... As far as the Inspiration is concerned, are you suggesting that a 100m dive for 80 minutes with deco using the standard scrubber would be within a set of published acceptable duration limits?? hmmm I think this would run past the 3 hour duration that AP publicly states... Dive Safe.... Mark Last edited by diverklondike : 10th May 2006 at 12:25.
(Offline)

10th May 2006, 13:11	#26 (permalink)
JPJones O2ptima Test Dummy Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Megalodon Sport Kiss Classic Kiss Optima Titan Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Florida Posts: 367	Re: Need info on Optima Quote: (Originally Posted by JonnyB) And yet you have the O2ptima test dummie under your name Kidding aside, as i said, to my knowledge. I now do know of you that dives it to 300. Still, i would like to hear from someone that took it to 500 f.ex just to see that it is possible. If an expert can take it to 500, i might be able to take it 300 without any problem of the scrubber duration. Lets say that i have a above average production of CO2/Min comparing to you that have less than average. And you dive it to 300ft and say that this is just fine. Then i go, trimix certified of course. And i die because of a break through. I know this is an extreme example. But what i wanted to say is that if you with a less than average production dive it to 500ft then perhaps me with above average will be able to take it to 300ft. Is that a logical thought? /Jonny The Micropore cartridge has has been tested at 10ata and published the results. There are only a couple of people that I would make a 500 ft dive with and I'm not sure I would post that I have done it afterwards. That type of dive has a lot more to do with the diver than the equiptment and anyone that needs to go to any list to see if it could be done doesn't need to make the dive. There has beeen a lot of testing to make sure that the Optima will preform well within normal limits 100 meters, 330ft and I am very confortable in recommending it to those depths. __________________ NSS/CDS Training Chairman www.jpjscuba.com
(Offline)

10th May 2006, 18:54	#27 (permalink)
*jradomski* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx Posts: 3,007	Re: Need info on Optima Quote: (Originally Posted by diverklondike) Joe, To be fair I think it's not appropreate to state the the cartridge information that was posted are "ratings". They are simply the results of testing with a particular set of conditions. Time, Depth, Temp, C02 etc... As far as the Inspiration is concerned, are you suggesting that a 100m dive for 80 minutes with deco using the standard scrubber would be within a set of published acceptable duration limits?? hmmm I think this would run past the 3 hour duration that AP publicly states... Dive Safe.... Mark no but about half of the breakthrough time is (when adjusted for low co2 production during deco), which is what I suggested on th MP cartridge.. If that test result showed breakthrough at 30 minutes, I wouldn't risk a 30 minute dive! Plus the testing was done at 1.1lpm, the Inspiration breakthrough was still tested at 1.6lpm (and 11atm vs 10atm).. that (using 1.1lpm) would probably translate to probably 30 minutes or so onto the breakthrough time on a INSP scrubber. You know how deep and how long I have done on the standard INSP scrubber where we monitored O2 consumption to get a reasonable comparison for CO2 production (you do know how much co2 can be absorbed).. I definately would not have attempted any of those dives on a MP cartridge.. as to APS "3 hour rating", they have always worded it specifying at 1.6lpm.. The literature always implied lower production would yield longer durations.. __________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated. Last edited by jradomski : 10th May 2006 at 19:44.
(Online)

10th May 2006, 18:55	#28 (permalink)
*caveseeker7* Who loves ya, baby Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Too far from Neverland Posts: 5,451	Re: Scubbing media expense Quote: (Originally Posted by Jeffrey C Gershen) And remember those ccr's cost money to refurbisih the absorbent as well. A box of four cartridges cost $129. That's $32.25/fill, and at the 3 hour Optima rating $10.75/hour. A 37 lbs pail of Sodasorb 6-12 costs $99.00, good for 6 scrubber fills. That's $2.68/lbs or about $16 per fill, and at the PRISM's 5 hour rating $3.20/hour. Depending on how many hours you dive it will add up and eat up the Optima's price advantage in the long run. The rather expensive SAFT batteries versus the PRISM's cheapo 9V batteries don't change that equation either. __________________ Cheers Stefan "Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.!"
(Offline)

10th May 2006, 19:47	#29 (permalink)
*jradomski* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx Posts: 3,007	Re: Scubbing media expense Quote: (Originally Posted by caveseeker7) The rather expensive SAFT batteries versus the PRISM's cheapo 9V batteries don't change that equation either. SAfts are great if you don't want to change batteries every 6 hours ish.. otherwise just get Bulk aa alkalines for $.05 each... cheaper than those "cheap" 9V.. even at Home depot You could get them for $0.34 each, or $0.68 per 6 hours/per pair (conservative changes) __________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated. Last edited by jradomski : 10th May 2006 at 20:28.
(Online)

10th May 2006, 20:20	#30 (permalink)
*caveseeker7* Who loves ya, baby Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Too far from Neverland Posts: 5,451	Re: Need info on Optima Stickler! 9V = $3 @ local supermarket, 40 hrs. __________________ Cheers Stefan "Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.!"
(Offline)

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode