Optima Cost

Genesis · 20th March 2006, 00:19

A larger scrubber is an issue if you're going to keep the cross-shoulder configuration. I've done some of the work on my own setup down this road already and have come to the conclusion that I am going to build two cans - a cross-shoulder for the cartridges, and a conventional "between the tanks" for loose, which will also likely require different hoses from the T-pieces to the can itself. Why? Because you can't get enough kitty litter in a cross-shoulder can with the size you want to have without seriously compromising runtime.

It wouldn't surprise me if this is an issue with the O2ptima as well....

***caveseeker7*** · 20th March 2006, 00:42

Gill, in my personal experiences Dive Rite's comments have been more reliable than Farallon's.

To adapt the current cannister for granules you would need an insert holding the granulars that which would take up space for both an outer and inner wall. The O2 addition bar goes through the cartridge, remember? Unless of course you inject YBOD like into the sensor housing.

Best you can hope for is a aftermarket solution ... if the demand is there.

And making an entirely different scrubber from scratch also means it would have to hold the solenoid, sensors etc. It's not quite as simple as switching canns on the Dolphin or Azimuth. Otherwise one of those cannisters could probably be adapted to the O2ptima. Especially the Azi's would be nice.

I agree in regards to the cartridge costs, both that they're currently unreasonably high as well as the number of O2ptima sales being unlikely to change it in and by itself. They're way above average for a new unit, but I rather doubt they're anywhere near affecting the price of the cartridges. If anything, higher sales in the medical (and maybe military) market(s) would lead to a decrease in price ... eventually ... maybe. If they're selling more and have no competition, why lower the price and reduce profits?

As long as the US is the main market the current price seems to work. If they ever want to get into foreign markets, where shipping expenses are higher, import and value added taxes are added and the price will be ridiculous they will have to adjust it.

sensor330 · 20th March 2006, 01:12

The rebreathers I dive for a living have radial scrubbers in the same position as the Optima, so size isn't an issue if they wanted to do it. These rebreather are the approx width of the Optima but the canister is a little larger in dia. We use them from 3 hours however the manufacturer advertises 4 hours on the can.

Genesis · 20th March 2006, 01:13

Interesting... what's the OD on those cans? I'd think it would get quite uncomfortable much bigger than that in diameter, but I could be wrong.....

**JPJones** · 21st March 2006, 00:48

Quote: (Originally Posted by caveseeker7)

Gill, in my personal experiences Dive Rite's comments have been more reliable than Farallon's.

To adapt the current cannister for granules you would need an insert holding the granulars that which would take up space for both an outer and inner wall. The O2 addition bar goes through the cartridge, remember? Unless of course you inject YBOD like into the sensor housing.

Best you can hope for is a aftermarket solution ... if the demand is there.

And making an entirely different scrubber from scratch also means it would have to hold the solenoid, sensors etc. It's not quite as simple as switching canns on the Dolphin or Azimuth. Otherwise one of those cannisters could probably be adapted to the O2ptima. Especially the Azi's would be nice.

I agree in regards to the cartridge costs, both that they're currently unreasonably high as well as the number of O2ptima sales being unlikely to change it in and by itself. They're way above average for a new unit, but I rather doubt they're anywhere near affecting the price of the cartridges. If anything, higher sales in the medical (and maybe military) market(s) would lead to a decrease in price ... eventually ... maybe. If they're selling more and have no competition, why lower the price and reduce profits?

As long as the US is the main market the current price seems to work. If they ever want to get into foreign markets, where shipping expenses are higher, import and value added taxes are added and the price will be ridiculous they will have to adjust it.

There are other customers than the Optima that should help drive the price down. If all goes well I would expect the price to start to drop over the next year. Micropore is good company and is working hard to get the price down to better compete in the market place.

Toren · 21st March 2006, 02:32

I'd just like to say that having used the cartridges on my Dolphin on my recent Cayman trip, I loved them for the safety, convenience, and easy WOB. By rough calculation, using them instead of loose sorb added 3% to the cost of my trip. This staggering extra expense doesn't exactly give me the screaming fantods.
IF you dive a LOT (be honest) AND if you dive off the shore within close driving distance, sorb may make a better choice. But given the overall cost of diving a Rebreather, the fur that has flown over the cost of the ExtendAir cartridges strikes me as a bit overblown. As Sal at Bamboo Reef once told me, "Divin' ain't a sport for the faint of wallet." I'd say that goes double for RB diving, yes? (Your booster pump cost what, again...?)
Besides, call around just before a trip. Shops sometimes have a box or two about ready to hit the "expire by" date, and deals can be made. (Personally, I'd dive them with complete confidence a year past that date, which is doubtless as overly conservative as the "official" run times for the carts.)
One final point: the custom canister is a work of art in machined Delrin. Mircropore can't be making a dime on those--it's a classic example of "giving away the razor and selling the blades." It also left more room in my Dolphin for the counterlungs to expand and kept the O2 P-connector from rubbing as well.
Bottom line, I liked 'em. I especially think they make a lot of sense for remote locations, boat dives, and liveaboards. If I was to take my Dolphin back to the Brac, I'd call Divetech and order up a "stack of boxes" instead of a "couple of kegs."

**Gill Envy** · 22nd March 2006, 04:34

Quote:

By rough calculation, using them instead of loose sorb added 3% to the cost of my trip. This staggering extra expense doesn't exactly give me the screaming fantods. IF you dive a LOT (be honest) AND if you dive off the shore within close driving distance, sorb may make a better choice.

Toren, you make some good points. I average about 70-100 dives a year, they are almost all cold water and within driving distance, and mostly either shore or kayak dives. On the other hand I also did a Fiji trip and a Honduras trip in the last twelve months. I plan on keeping up that pace at least with my evo. So, yeah, availability to amazing diving at my door step has kept the avearage cost down and that may be factoring in somewhat in my aversion to the price of the mircorpore. I just think that if people are seeing the optima as a competatively priced eCCR, as it has been slated, they are not looking at the whole picture... that is not to say I don't think it's worth it.
Price aside, there is a lot to be said for what a bonus it would be to have the flexibility to choose either granules or micropore cartridge.

wizbang · 22nd March 2006, 19:18

Quote: (Originally Posted by Gillenvy)

.....Price aside, there is a lot to be said for what a bonus it would be to have the flexibility to choose either granules or micropore cartridge.

Here here.

**JPJones** · 23rd March 2006, 02:53

Quote: (Originally Posted by Gillenvy)

Toren, you make some good points. I average about 70-100 dives a year, they are almost all cold water and within driving distance, and mostly either shore or kayak dives. On the other hand I also did a Fiji trip and a Honduras trip in the last twelve months. I plan on keeping up that pace at least with my evo. So, yeah, availability to amazing diving at my door step has kept the avearage cost down and that may be factoring in somewhat in my aversion to the price of the mircorpore. I just think that if people are seeing the optima as a competatively priced eCCR, as it has been slated, they are not looking at the whole picture... that is not to say I don't think it's worth it.
Price aside, there is a lot to be said for what a bonus it would be to have the flexibility to choose either granules or micropore cartridge.

The design of the Optima's breathing loop was built around the Micropore cartridge and the granules really are not a good option and probably would not work well. Same as trying to make an insert to make the Micropore cartridge work in the Inspiration and the Meg didn't work well.

silent running · 23rd March 2006, 04:18

Quote: (Originally Posted by Toren)

Bottom line, I liked 'em. I especially think they make a lot of sense for remote locations, boat dives, and liveaboards. If I was to take my Dolphin back to the Brac, I'd call Divetech and order up a "stack of boxes" instead of a "couple of kegs."

Hi Toren, I guess it all depends what you mean by "remote" and also how long one would want to stay in said remote location. I have brought 2 kegs of Sodasorb with me to Papua New Guinea, which gave me well over 100 hrs of dive time for a month long trip with the Prism. I doubt you'd be able to get more than 8 cartridges in the same luggage space=24 hrs dive time.
Shipping say, 36 cartridges ahead to such a remote place would quickly add up with the air freight, duty and storage. Remember, cargo is priced not only by weight but also by volume-dimensional weight. Not to mention not being able to guarantee it's arival or safe handling or actual cost after the Minister of Customs in Bergawnaaiidjnu gets to assess it's worth while pacing around the containers a couple of times in the heat of a sunny, tropical afternoon...
I don't count on anything I need for CCR diving being there if I can't bring it myself. I learned this lesson the hard way.
Also, I don't know about anybody else, but when I spend $2500 for a plane ticket to a remote location that takes 2 days to get to, I want to stay for at least 2 weeks to amortize the cost. I try to keep the cost of CCR diving trips under $100 per hour of diving, that's my threshold of pain... -Andy

20th March 2006, 00:19	#21 (permalink)
Genesis Bubbless Box of Death Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Home Build Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Sunny Florida Posts: 1,396	Re: Optima Cost A larger scrubber is an issue if you're going to keep the cross-shoulder configuration. I've done some of the work on my own setup down this road already and have come to the conclusion that I am going to build two cans - a cross-shoulder for the cartridges, and a conventional "between the tanks" for loose, which will also likely require different hoses from the T-pieces to the can itself. Why? Because you can't get enough kitty litter in a cross-shoulder can with the size you want to have without seriously compromising runtime. It wouldn't surprise me if this is an issue with the O2ptima as well.... __________________ "A venturesome minority will always be eager to get off on their own, and no obstacles should be placed in their path; let them take risks for Godsake, let them get lost, sunburnt, stranded, drowned, eaten by bears, buried alive under avalanches - that is the right and privilege of any free American." http://www.denninger.net http://www.diversunion.org/liability.htm - Fix the Diving Cert racket
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20th March 2006, 00:42	#22 (permalink)
*caveseeker7* Who loves ya, baby Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Too far from Neverland Posts: 5,498	Re: Optima Cost Gill, in my personal experiences Dive Rite's comments have been more reliable than Farallon's. To adapt the current cannister for granules you would need an insert holding the granulars that which would take up space for both an outer and inner wall. The O2 addition bar goes through the cartridge, remember? Unless of course you inject YBOD like into the sensor housing. Best you can hope for is a aftermarket solution ... if the demand is there. And making an entirely different scrubber from scratch also means it would have to hold the solenoid, sensors etc. It's not quite as simple as switching canns on the Dolphin or Azimuth. Otherwise one of those cannisters could probably be adapted to the O2ptima. Especially the Azi's would be nice. I agree in regards to the cartridge costs, both that they're currently unreasonably high as well as the number of O2ptima sales being unlikely to change it in and by itself. They're way above average for a new unit, but I rather doubt they're anywhere near affecting the price of the cartridges. If anything, higher sales in the medical (and maybe military) market(s) would lead to a decrease in price ... eventually ... maybe. If they're selling more and have no competition, why lower the price and reduce profits? As long as the US is the main market the current price seems to work. If they ever want to get into foreign markets, where shipping expenses are higher, import and value added taxes are added and the price will be ridiculous they will have to adjust it. __________________ Cheers Stefan "Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.!"
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20th March 2006, 01:12	#23 (permalink)
sensor330 Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Inspiration Classic Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Victoria, British Columbia, Canada Posts: 583	Re: Optima Cost The rebreathers I dive for a living have radial scrubbers in the same position as the Optima, so size isn't an issue if they wanted to do it. These rebreather are the approx width of the Optima but the canister is a little larger in dia. We use them from 3 hours however the manufacturer advertises 4 hours on the can.
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20th March 2006, 01:13	#24 (permalink)
Genesis Bubbless Box of Death Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Home Build Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Sunny Florida Posts: 1,396	Re: Optima Cost Interesting... what's the OD on those cans? I'd think it would get quite uncomfortable much bigger than that in diameter, but I could be wrong..... __________________ "A venturesome minority will always be eager to get off on their own, and no obstacles should be placed in their path; let them take risks for Godsake, let them get lost, sunburnt, stranded, drowned, eaten by bears, buried alive under avalanches - that is the right and privilege of any free American." http://www.denninger.net http://www.diversunion.org/liability.htm - Fix the Diving Cert racket
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21st March 2006, 00:48	#25 (permalink)
JPJones O2ptima Test Dummy Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Megalodon Sport Kiss Classic Kiss Optima Titan Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Florida Posts: 367	Re: Optima Cost Quote: (Originally Posted by caveseeker7) Gill, in my personal experiences Dive Rite's comments have been more reliable than Farallon's. To adapt the current cannister for granules you would need an insert holding the granulars that which would take up space for both an outer and inner wall. The O2 addition bar goes through the cartridge, remember? Unless of course you inject YBOD like into the sensor housing. Best you can hope for is a aftermarket solution ... if the demand is there. And making an entirely different scrubber from scratch also means it would have to hold the solenoid, sensors etc. It's not quite as simple as switching canns on the Dolphin or Azimuth. Otherwise one of those cannisters could probably be adapted to the O2ptima. Especially the Azi's would be nice. I agree in regards to the cartridge costs, both that they're currently unreasonably high as well as the number of O2ptima sales being unlikely to change it in and by itself. They're way above average for a new unit, but I rather doubt they're anywhere near affecting the price of the cartridges. If anything, higher sales in the medical (and maybe military) market(s) would lead to a decrease in price ... eventually ... maybe. If they're selling more and have no competition, why lower the price and reduce profits? As long as the US is the main market the current price seems to work. If they ever want to get into foreign markets, where shipping expenses are higher, import and value added taxes are added and the price will be ridiculous they will have to adjust it. There are other customers than the Optima that should help drive the price down. If all goes well I would expect the price to start to drop over the next year. Micropore is good company and is working hard to get the price down to better compete in the market place. __________________ NSS/CDS Training Chairman www.jpjscuba.com
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21st March 2006, 02:32	#26 (permalink)
Toren In Rebreather holding pattern... Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Dolphin Other Rebreather/s: Dolphin Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: SF, CA Posts: 114	Re: Optima Cost I'd just like to say that having used the cartridges on my Dolphin on my recent Cayman trip, I loved them for the safety, convenience, and easy WOB. By rough calculation, using them instead of loose sorb added 3% to the cost of my trip. This staggering extra expense doesn't exactly give me the screaming fantods. IF you dive a LOT (be honest) AND if you dive off the shore within close driving distance, sorb may make a better choice. But given the overall cost of diving a Rebreather, the fur that has flown over the cost of the ExtendAir cartridges strikes me as a bit overblown. As Sal at Bamboo Reef once told me, "Divin' ain't a sport for the faint of wallet." I'd say that goes double for RB diving, yes? (Your booster pump cost what, again...?) Besides, call around just before a trip. Shops sometimes have a box or two about ready to hit the "expire by" date, and deals can be made. (Personally, I'd dive them with complete confidence a year past that date, which is doubtless as overly conservative as the "official" run times for the carts.) One final point: the custom canister is a work of art in machined Delrin. Mircropore can't be making a dime on those--it's a classic example of "giving away the razor and selling the blades." It also left more room in my Dolphin for the counterlungs to expand and kept the O2 P-connector from rubbing as well. Bottom line, I liked 'em. I especially think they make a lot of sense for remote locations, boat dives, and liveaboards. If I was to take my Dolphin back to the Brac, I'd call Divetech and order up a "stack of boxes" instead of a "couple of kegs." __________________ ------ "Sh*t does happen, it is our job to keep it a minor annoyance by training, proper gear configuration, emergency skills practice and a survival mindset." --Ron Micjan
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22nd March 2006, 04:34	#27 (permalink)
Gill Envy Shearwater Copis Divers Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Evolution Other CCR Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: seattle Posts: 1,326	Re: Optima Cost Quote: By rough calculation, using them instead of loose sorb added 3% to the cost of my trip. This staggering extra expense doesn't exactly give me the screaming fantods. IF you dive a LOT (be honest) AND if you dive off the shore within close driving distance, sorb may make a better choice. Toren, you make some good points. I average about 70-100 dives a year, they are almost all cold water and within driving distance, and mostly either shore or kayak dives. On the other hand I also did a Fiji trip and a Honduras trip in the last twelve months. I plan on keeping up that pace at least with my evo. So, yeah, availability to amazing diving at my door step has kept the avearage cost down and that may be factoring in somewhat in my aversion to the price of the mircorpore. I just think that if people are seeing the optima as a competatively priced eCCR, as it has been slated, they are not looking at the whole picture... that is not to say I don't think it's worth it. Price aside, there is a lot to be said for what a bonus it would be to have the flexibility to choose either granules or micropore cartridge. __________________ Gill Envy ...Because I wasn't born with gills! ><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>
(Online)

22nd March 2006, 19:18	#28 (permalink)
wizbang WEB MERMEN Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Dolphin Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Inspiration Vision Evolution Prism Topaz Sport Kiss Classic Kiss Dolphin Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Perth Australia Posts: 386	Re: Optima Cost Quote: (Originally Posted by Gillenvy) .....Price aside, there is a lot to be said for what a bonus it would be to have the flexibility to choose either granules or micropore cartridge. Here here.
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23rd March 2006, 02:53	#29 (permalink)
JPJones O2ptima Test Dummy Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Megalodon Sport Kiss Classic Kiss Optima Titan Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Florida Posts: 367	Re: Optima Cost Quote: (Originally Posted by Gillenvy) Toren, you make some good points. I average about 70-100 dives a year, they are almost all cold water and within driving distance, and mostly either shore or kayak dives. On the other hand I also did a Fiji trip and a Honduras trip in the last twelve months. I plan on keeping up that pace at least with my evo. So, yeah, availability to amazing diving at my door step has kept the avearage cost down and that may be factoring in somewhat in my aversion to the price of the mircorpore. I just think that if people are seeing the optima as a competatively priced eCCR, as it has been slated, they are not looking at the whole picture... that is not to say I don't think it's worth it. Price aside, there is a lot to be said for what a bonus it would be to have the flexibility to choose either granules or micropore cartridge. The design of the Optima's breathing loop was built around the Micropore cartridge and the granules really are not a good option and probably would not work well. Same as trying to make an insert to make the Micropore cartridge work in the Inspiration and the Meg didn't work well. __________________ NSS/CDS Training Chairman www.jpjscuba.com
(Offline)

23rd March 2006, 04:18	#30 (permalink)
silent running Mature mouth breather Current Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: U.S.A. Brooklyn, New York Posts: 1,836	Re: Optima Cost Quote: (Originally Posted by Toren) Bottom line, I liked 'em. I especially think they make a lot of sense for remote locations, boat dives, and liveaboards. If I was to take my Dolphin back to the Brac, I'd call Divetech and order up a "stack of boxes" instead of a "couple of kegs." Hi Toren, I guess it all depends what you mean by "remote" and also how long one would want to stay in said remote location. I have brought 2 kegs of Sodasorb with me to Papua New Guinea, which gave me well over 100 hrs of dive time for a month long trip with the Prism. I doubt you'd be able to get more than 8 cartridges in the same luggage space=24 hrs dive time. Shipping say, 36 cartridges ahead to such a remote place would quickly add up with the air freight, duty and storage. Remember, cargo is priced not only by weight but also by volume-dimensional weight. Not to mention not being able to guarantee it's arival or safe handling or actual cost after the Minister of Customs in Bergawnaaiidjnu gets to assess it's worth while pacing around the containers a couple of times in the heat of a sunny, tropical afternoon... I don't count on anything I need for CCR diving being there if I can't bring it myself. I learned this lesson the hard way. Also, I don't know about anybody else, but when I spend $2500 for a plane ticket to a remote location that takes 2 days to get to, I want to stay for at least 2 weeks to amortize the cost. I try to keep the cost of CCR diving trips under $100 per hour of diving, that's my threshold of pain... -Andy
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