Optima Codes

Mike

Richard - what planet are you (and DiveRite etc.) living on?
Go talk to some rebreather divers - people are not buying rebreathers to dive shallow on air dil. There may be a head in the sand attitude prevalent about it, but the reality is that folks go deep early. I might know one diver who made it to 50 hours before doing 50m deco dives, but probably not. Conventional practice is do a few hours to work the unit out, then go diving - and for most, that means some He in the dil, and decompression.

I think it's acceptable for DiveRite to offer the Trimix capability for an additional fee. More money = more functionality, the user decides if it's worth while, and that's fine. To insist upon an additional payment to a third party as well, is stupid.
If a diver wants to run mix and do deco dives, they will just cut tables and go do it anyway, all requiring a specific and expensive certification does is annoy the user. I've done a lot of accelerated deco dives using an old Alladin Pro - the fact that it is an air only computer hasn't stopped me at all - I just get annoyed that it sulks for a day afterwards.(Equating a cert card with experience is foolish in it's own right, but that's another story)

Jason - please be accurate, rather than sensational. Lewis was lost after a dive to approximately 6m.
You may wish to make up a possible story about diving a hypoxic mix, but as I'm sure you are aware, many CCR divers dive 10/50 for everything. (FWIW, I don't consider this the best approach, and prefer 20/50 myself for sub 55m dives)

I prefer most of the other CCR unit over the Optima anyway, but if I had bought one, and was sitting down here in melbourne with functionality unavailiable without an expensive trip to do an expensive course, I'd be pretty grumpy.

Mike

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Jason Blackwell

Mike, I am not trying to be sensational, IF you want the FACTS, Lewis had not even begun the dive, he was still on the surface awaiting the third member of the team.

But I don't want this to become a dissection of the incident, I should never have posted that line about his incident, but I believe the quote "complacency kills" should be enough.

Cheers Jason

BTW, I too prefer and dive 20/50 myself.

wizbang

To help make things clearer and help compare apples with apples I would like to point out that assumptions are being made.

Not all divers that take up brand XYZ CCR are newbies nor are they 10 year gurus.
Some divers will be happy to plod along and be tentative as it is their first forays into rebreathers but also into deco diving.

Some divers will be experienced deco/trimix OC divers looking for the benefits of CCR and want to get back to their regular diving asap.

Some divers will be experienced CCR divers and some of them will also have trimix CCR certs and are only changing the rebreather.

To say that the blanket procedure for codes is for diver safety is a farce.
Especially if it is enforced by the by the training agency.
Having to pay for a code to realease further functionality is a business decision for commercial gain/control.

Personaly I have no problem with any manufacturer using this system for remuneration. As long as I know before hand that I will need to pay for that functionality then I can decide if it is worth it or not. When the manufacturer changes the rules after I have bought the unit, now that is another matter entirely.

Like the VR3, this is the base unit if you want these things then start adding them on. You know right from the outset that the extra functions will cost more.

How is the code for the He functionality any different than buying a Meg and needing to pay "extra" for the ADV etc. You can dive both units without the "extra". Some people will want them and some people won't.

Me personally I would buy it second hand with the pin/adv already installed (and transferable).

Those that don't likes the system should not buy one. (Good on ya Matty)The company will then either change the system to sell units or change products or go belly up. Either way, dilema solved.

hey this ranting stuff is contagious.

Steve

Indeed. Most CCRs are purchased with deeper diving in mind but if there is one thing I have learned in 11 years of CCR diving, it is that any one who goes deep too early is usually convinced they are a more capable diver than they really are. Many of them act like they have something to prove and doing seem to feel that trimix diving is a way of proving themselves. Whereas good divers know their limitations and work at expanding their knowledge and abilities over time. What is the down side to more preparation for trimix dives?

I don't really care about the Optima's codes as I seriously doubt I will touch another HH again. It is an interesting concept though and if saves one life by making people slow down a bit then where is the harm?

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MHD

talking about going for a swim, you still using those stages?

Matt

JonnyB

I kind of have to agree with genesis though in all of this.
I would have had it easier to accept if they had normoxic trimix and you had to do course for hypoxic diluent. The reason they are saying is that by limiting the new user to use air diluent so they can go to max 47meter on 1.2pO2 and thus make it safer i find to be crap, i know of agencies that now actually embeds recreational trimix into the advanced nitrox course, why would i not be able to use a 21/30 mix...
I myself always use trimix for all my dives, be it shallow or be it deep. I want to be clear in my head.
No i do not agree at all with the reasons given. If they had said this is only so we can make some money so we can give you better products in the future, fine! So be it... I can accept that, perhaps i find it a bit pricy but it is a valid reason, but safety is not. If they had enabled normoxic trimix by default yes i would have said that it is more safe...

just my two cents
/Jonny

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divetheworld

This is the part I dont like. I have no problems with charging for functions. Its a way to make a living. If this was the only problem with Delta-P, I would be OK with that.
After spending £1500 on training on RB1 why should I be forced to do this again, with an instructor I havnt chosen for RB2?

There only TWO instructors on the list for the UK who have expressed an interest in becoming Optima Instructors, and I only know one of them.

So what, precisely, will I get for my money? Perhaps if this question is answered sensibly I might be inclined to change my opinion.

Makes the classic, MKxx etc much more attractive.



B

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Mike

Dying of old age in the meantime?
I guess you do what you want to when you are comfortable, and when the guys you dive with are comfortable to have you there?
As there is no absolute yardstick as to experience and ability, what else is there?
I've probably made more **** ups than the other guys I dive with - does that mean I have more experience at dealing with problems, or that I'm a worse diver?
If you're comfortable holding stops and confident in your dive and bailout plans, what's the difference between spending 20min at 6m vs 30min at 6m?

You mean beside encouraging people to dive air in the 30 to 55m range? And removing an additional tool that gives accurate deco profiles if you do use He in the mix? And discouraging people from getting experience doing light deco in the 40 to 50m range before they go out do a trimix course with a 60m+ range dive?
Besides those things, the only harm is in forcing you to not only by the product (He upgrade) from diverite, but also forcing you to pay an instructor (who you may or may not like) for a course that may or may not be of value to you.

Mike

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Steve

I think we are both fairly happy that we don't hold the same point of view on this one I'm happy to put this one down

I don't think any bit of gear can do that. A diver's personality can though.

Enough internet banter for me. I have to go plan a trimix dive that I flew overseas to get qualified to do 'cos my mum would be upset if I hurt myself by being stupid.

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esc

Here in Finland, every rebreather diver I know off has used trimix basically from the second they left the training. I would be as bold as to say that anyone who have means to get trimix, will use it on rebreather. Why not? I know I will

I do think that people who are new to rebreather should not dive deep with it and I certainly don't plan doing so. Why trimix then? Well, I have narked BAD at 34m on 29% nitrox. So if trimix price wouldn't be issue, I would use it for every dive, more so the moment I go past 30m.

I gotta admit I was bit stupid on that particular dive to 34m. I am usually quite careful to monitor myself for narc when I go deeper. Here I did notice it pretty early too since I got tunnel vision, augmented with bad visibility and high power beam from HID that draw my focus quite tight already. I thought ok, I am bit narked but nothing too bad, I can still control my movement fine and know what I am doing, lets proceed then... Drunken bravado I realized later. That was around midship on the wreck. Next thing I remember from that dive is that we met the other couple we were diving with and turned to follow them... blank... I am on midship again, there is rope up...

Basically I dont remember anything from the dive from midship to stern/or was it bow? and back to midship. My wife who was following me said she didn't notice anything strange on my behaviour. I did OK marks, responded to light and my diving was as usual, no problems anywhere. Yeah.. except I barely remember the dive at all

Scary stuff.

So yes, I would use trimix even on "shallow" dives of 30m mark or so. I have after that dived to 37m without having the problems described above. So just because I can dive to 37m in air one day, doesn't mean I could second and I really wouln't want to be with rebreather on "legal" 40m with air when something goes wrong.

/esc