Opinions on bail-out

seafox

Ditto! Following any dive, but especially deco dives, "working hard" or straining to get back is a very bad idea! Take the deco bottle off and hand it up or hang it if possible.

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E-man

I believe he was refering to IP creep as a problem on RBs only in that the pressure creeps up because you aren't relieving the pressure with everybreather (as you would with OC)

Underwaterbear

Off-board suit inflation! I knew there was a reason I bought it.

As I read through this thread I'm prompted to recall the basics. Correct weighting and redundant systems are key.

Edit: PS. IP creep is avoided by servicing and inspecting your regulators. I check the IP frequently - I consider it part of knowing my equipment. A bit like inspecting hoses. I've never had one let go on me underwater - but I have found a couple that were close.

Mike

On descent you are going to be adding volume to suit, lungs, wing so will be relieving the pressure a significant amount, so I'm not sure the distinction is actually meaningful. I run through the suit, equalise, loop, and repeat cycle continously on descent, so this should keep IP creep from being an immediate problem I would have thought.

If the reg lets go when you are neutral, then who cares? do a normal ascent.

My view on off board suit inflation is that I'd just as soon carry a sling and run it off that - which is why I was swimming around at 20m on the weekend looking for a gas donation

Mike

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Gill Envy

one of my rebreather friends has drilled it into my head "it's not a pony bottle, it's bail out"...he convinced me to order a 40cf before i even get a Rebreather to get used to it, it's on the way. my wife will have her own, but likely a 20 or 30. and that is all for recreational limits to 130, we might fudge to 150. but we plan to wait a good long while before we venture into the deep and make sure we are adequately prepared.

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jradomski

When it happened to me, it was part of a trip so it was only a few days from the last time the IP was checked and it was absolutely stable..

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Joe Radomski
CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer
ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10

All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated.

jradomski

I tend to descent quite rapidly (I'm not overweighted (I usually dont have any added weight other than a few lbs behing the head for trim)I just don't add gas until I have to).. On shallow dives I might only descent at 20-30m per minute, but on big dive 50-60m (I can go faster, but I prefer not to) a minute is not uncommon.. I don't want to have to do extra deco because of a slow descent..

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Joe Radomski
CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer
ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10

All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated.

n2diving

I have been diving the Rite Source (RG2200 $199) on my O2ptima from the beginning. John Jones, Tom Mount and myself (all rebreather instructors for those who don't recognize the names) have had quite a bit of discussion about it.... I'll share some of my personal opinions formed as a result of those discussions and my extensive use and practice with it...

1) It's an Air II knockoff... the patents expired.... therefore pretty much has the same issues as Air II regarding maintenance and reliability... except that when the maintenance manual and service parts kit is available (another week or two), you'll have access to them. [FYI, if you want to shoot another arrow at me for selling parts and putting the pdf's on my website please use another forum - it's a completely different discussion.]

2) For my sport diving in the 90's I used an Air II, and therefore had a lot of experience and comfort with it. I was using a long hose on my primary and was using the Air II even when teaching so I got very skilled with it from all the practice during drills. By the time this century arrived, a couple of total 1st stage failures at depth along with the fact that I was doing so much tech diving caused me to become uncomfortable diving at any time without redundant 1st stages. I also had started carrying an al19 with 80% even for sport diving because I had gotten an undeserved hit. (Yes, I'm aware that not everyone would agree I'm sport diving if I always use an H-valve with a long hose and are doing safety stops on 80%). Once I had migrated to that configuration and my Dive Rite Junior Wing wore out... the Air II just never made it over to my new aircell and I stopped diving it...

3) I had gotten an evaluation unit of the Rite Source to test with the O2ptima and after fooling with the BC integrated second stage regulator a bit found I still liked it quite well. I discovered my old skill with the Air II returned instantly and that I could do incredibly fast bailouts almost without thinking about them... so fast that John Jones watching me do them in a pool actually cautioned me to slow down so he (and a student) could see them. I think part of the reason that the bailout is so repeatably smooth is that I practice recovering the Air II several times on every dive in order to operate the BC inflator.

4) I find that I very consistently use about 200 to 300 psi of Dil on any dive within sport limits, meaning on a two dive trip I will have 20+ cubic feet or more of gas remaining in my onboard cylinder at the end of the second dive. Consider that many sport divers seem to think a 6 cu ft 'spare air' is adequate reserve, and the makers of such devices have justifications on their websites why that's so. I personally consider having 20+ cubic feet of gas more than adequate bailout for no-stop required diving at typical sport depths... say not to exceed 100 fsw and more like 60 fsw... assuming a 3 minute safety stop and my personal RMV. John Jones, for one, can make some persuasive arguments that 20 cu ft might not be enough for many others.

5) I have practiced some bailouts on the O2ptima using the Rite Source and found that a bailout and controlled slow ascent on the Rite Source from several depths in the 60 to 80 foot range with a three minute stop (not my usual five note) will require about 500 to 600 psi, for me personally. I do not find that I have any trouble at all venting (or inflating) my bc using the Rite Source while ascending.

6) When I am sport diving with an open circuit buddy, an external bailout is normally required. This means that I even though I had the Rite Source and preferred to bailout using it, I still had to carry a bailout bottle (my choice is an AL19) to support the requirements of the buddy team. However, on a recent trip to Belize where most of my diving was in the 30 to 60 foot range I was diving with a skilled buddy who's configuration was a large capacity cylinder with an H valve and the typical long hose primary and short hose backup on a necklace. I decided to cease taking the bailout after a checkout dive and for the rest of the week on any dive less than 70 feet went without it. For the first couple of dives this caused me considerable anxiety (it had been years since I had not had a cylinder slung under my left arm) and also caused me to feel my trim in the water was off (my buddy said I looked fine but it felt 'wrong'). However, within a couple of dives I adjusted and then after a couple more discovered I liked having the additional bit of mobility on my left side... mostly I liked not having to clip the bailout when gearing up.

7) My opinion as an instructor.... a BC integrated Octo is a valid option as sole bailout for a sport rebreather diver who can demonstrate that they will have adequate dil for bailout at the end of the planned dive (i.e. worst case). This is subject to the conditions that they are diving less than 100 fsw and their buddy has their own adequate bailout solution either dual regs on an H or an external bottle. I encourage my student to always take an external bailout bottle and while teaching always carry one myself. At a minimum I require a student to take the external bailout bottle on three dives (and on any dive deeper than 60 feet) and to demonstrate bailouts using it. However, if they wish to use a BC integrated octo for bailout from the dil, then I won't object to their not taking a bailout on all dives. The student of course must demonstrate bailouts using the BC integrated octo, including a controlled ascent to 20 feet and safety stop and climb back on the boat with dil remaining.

9) Even when diving carrying an external bailout, for those first few 'sanity breaths' I find substantial merit in the idea that I can perform such rapid and near automatic switches from the loop to the Rite Source. If I then determine I'm going to have to get off the loop permanently, I have the grace of a more 'leisurely' deployment of my external bailout and switching to it. I think there might be merit in teaching the skills of both types of bailouts to all students.

10) This discussion is based on using a BC integrated octo for bailout on dill with the O2ptima (which has larger dil capacity than most) and only at shallow depths. Diving with a Rite Source on technical or deeper dives introduces several complex issues. As one book points out, bailing out to dil at technical depths could be considered a form of suicide. Also, an inline cutoff would enhance safety should the octo begin to free flow.

-- Mark

jradomski

All the ANDI Rebreather programs do this as a requirement ..for Example On the inspiration itd the auto air and mandatory indendent bailout, on this KISS its the integrated OC reg and then off board bailout.

Some of the hose failures I have seen were people who had inline cutoffs fitted without an OPV.. One case the hose just went, (the cutoff was probably closed) another time a diver had a bad freeflow, and he enabled the cutoff and then POP..

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Joe Radomski
CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer
ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10

All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated.

dantheman

Now that's funny!

Note: not impossible to surface, just much harder.

1) OPV on 1st stage goes.
2) ADV sticks open
3) lp hose blows (after 1st stage, before plumbing into unit)

How's that?
--dan

PS> I might not carry bailout on a shallow reef dive in benign
conditions, but anything else and I've got at least a 40. Once
you're used to it, it's no big thing.