Opinions on bail-out

Mike · 7th February 2006, 05:54

Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike)

makes sense.

Do you hand up your 2x12L tanks? or are you climbing into the boat with them

If diving off a boat with no lift I tend to put them on in the water and take them off in the water - Im getting old

A nice tool to use is a gearline hanging under the boat. We clip off the tanks/scooter/portholes to it as we get to the last stop and the crew pulls it all up when we surface.

I've never see a boat with a lift...

Climbing the ladder isn't the problem, fitting through the transom was.

This was only a 30min at ~50m dive, making sure the sidemount 12s work OK, not one where I needed that much bailout, and hence would have been a bit more conservative getting out of the water. I could have clipped the tanks off in the water, but it was just as easy to climb out with them.

Mike

Nick uk. · 7th February 2006, 07:57

I've climbed back onto the boat with twin 15's and two 7lt. tanks. If the ladder can handle it then so can I.

Drmike · 7th February 2006, 08:27

Quote: (Originally Posted by Nick uk.)

I've climbed back onto the boat with twin 15's and two 7lt. tanks. If the ladder can handle it then so can I.

I try my best to minimise load carrying after diving especially as Im just getting out of the water. Im usually cold and likely bubbling like crazy - I figure its best to avoid strains or inducing DCI by exersion at this time unless necessary.

If the conditions/boat permit that is.

**RichClark** · 7th February 2006, 08:53

Quote: (Originally Posted by Nick uk.)

I've climbed back onto the boat with twin 15's and two 7lt. tanks. If the ladder can handle it then so can I.

I *have* climbed a ladder in my 15's and Al80's but defiantly prefer not to. More often than not I choose a boat with a lift, the only ladder I've climbed in the last three years is on Loyal Watcher.

IMHO, climbing a ladder loaded with gear after a long dive is a very very bad idea.

Cheers

Rich

Nick uk. · 7th February 2006, 11:00

Quote: (Originally Posted by RichClark)

IMHO, climbing a ladder loaded with gear after a long dive is a very very bad idea.

Cheers

Rich

Absolutely!
I have a twin set for sale if anyone is interested.

dantheman · 7th February 2006, 16:18

Gordon said it best:

Quote:

If you carry more gas than this, and you should, it should be in the form of emergency bailout, open circuit gas in separate tanks. A larger diluent tank is not an adequate bailout gas supply. Carefully analyze the failure paths on your gas supply and don?t put all your eggs (gas) in one basket (tank).

--dan

***jradomski*** · 7th February 2006, 17:07

Three Rules to Live by:

Rule #1 - Don't Trust your rebreather, it will eventually fail.

Rule #2 - Carry Independent Bail-out

Rule #3 - Refer to Rule #1

Mike · 7th February 2006, 20:44

I've got no problem with people wanting an independant bailout supply, but instead of just asserting it is required, (or repeating someone elses assertion - almost sounds like a cool aid drinker) how about stating a scenario / failure mode where it would not be possible to get back to the surface using onboard dil? Add some value, not just retoric

This is in the scenario where the dive is planned such that the onboard dil will have enough volume to be used for successful bailout from any point on the dive. I equate this to dives I used to do on a single tank, ie ~40m depth, no significant deco.

FWIW, my thoughts are that I can stay on the loop in the event of a total dil loss, swim up and use O2 for boyancy control to do a 5m stop. Or in the event of a loop loss, I can surface on the dil bottle. I've done it for real in a 'not happy' situation from 27m, and it wasn't a problem with 3l onboard - I figure I need 150 litres of gas minimum from 30m.

As far as I can see this approach is safe. If there's something I've missed, I'd much rather be told I'm and idiot now, than find it out for myself later.

Mike

***jradomski*** · 7th February 2006, 20:57

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mike)

I've got no problem with people wanting an independant bailout supply, but instead of just asserting it is required, (or repeating someone elses assertion - almost sounds like a cool aid drinker) how about stating a scenario / failure mode where it would not be possible to get back to the surface using onboard dil? Add some value, not just retoric

This is in the scenario where the dive is planned such that the onboard dil will have enough volume to be used for successful bailout from any point on the dive. I equate this to dives I used to do on a single tank, ie ~40m depth, no significant deco.

FWIW, my thoughts are that I can stay on the loop in the event of a total dil loss, swim up and use O2 for boyancy control to do a 5m stop. Or in the event of a loop loss, I can surface on the dil bottle. I've done it for real in a 'not happy' situation from 27m, and it wasn't a problem with 3l onboard - I figure I need 150 litres of gas minimum from 30m.

As far as I can see this approach is safe. If there's something I've missed, I'd much rather be told I'm and idiot now, than find it out for myself later.

Mike

I already did state one.. Failure of diluent regulator during descent.. It HAS happened to me and I have seen it happen to several others..

Mike · 7th February 2006, 21:13

Perhaps a safer (ie controlled) descent rate would be a better solution?

I'm not aware of there being a huge number of deaths from this in single tank diving, where the scenario is the same, it's just the volume of gas is greater?

Admittedly though it is a valid scenario - if you are dangerously negative at the same time as your dil lets go, and you are diving with no hard floor and no useful buddies, then you are going to be in trouble. I'll make a point of diving a bit more conservatively than that if not carrying bailout...

Mike

7th February 2006, 05:54	#21 (permalink)
Mike Prism 'prentice Current Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Evolution Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Melbourne Posts: 329	Re: Opinions on bail-out Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike) makes sense. Do you hand up your 2x12L tanks? or are you climbing into the boat with them If diving off a boat with no lift I tend to put them on in the water and take them off in the water - Im getting old A nice tool to use is a gearline hanging under the boat. We clip off the tanks/scooter/portholes to it as we get to the last stop and the crew pulls it all up when we surface. I've never see a boat with a lift... Climbing the ladder isn't the problem, fitting through the transom was. This was only a 30min at ~50m dive, making sure the sidemount 12s work OK, not one where I needed that much bailout, and hence would have been a bit more conservative getting out of the water. I could have clipped the tanks off in the water, but it was just as easy to climb out with them. Mike __________________ Open ....... Closed Mind ........ Loop
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7th February 2006, 07:57	#22 (permalink)
Nick uk. Made in England. Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Azimuth Other Rebreather/s: Azimuth Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Viale C.Colombo 75 Marina di Carrara. MS 54036 Italy Posts: 575	Re: Opinions on bail-out I've climbed back onto the boat with twin 15's and two 7lt. tanks. If the ladder can handle it then so can I. __________________ If it aint broke....don't fix it, and if it is.............well......get another one! divechief2000@hotmail.com
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7th February 2006, 08:27	#23 (permalink)
Drmike Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Ouroboros Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,323	Re: Opinions on bail-out Quote: (Originally Posted by Nick uk.) I've climbed back onto the boat with twin 15's and two 7lt. tanks. If the ladder can handle it then so can I. I try my best to minimise load carrying after diving especially as Im just getting out of the water. Im usually cold and likely bubbling like crazy - I figure its best to avoid strains or inducing DCI by exersion at this time unless necessary. If the conditions/boat permit that is. __________________ Cave diving is a sport Wreck diving is a sport Diving in general is a sport 'Rebreather diving' is not a sport its the delusional obsession with a highly dangerous and often inappropriate piece of equipment
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7th February 2006, 08:53	#24 (permalink)
RichClark Classic KISS No. 226 Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Hove, UK Posts: 778	Re: Opinions on bail-out Quote: (Originally Posted by Nick uk.) I've climbed back onto the boat with twin 15's and two 7lt. tanks. If the ladder can handle it then so can I. I *have* climbed a ladder in my 15's and Al80's but defiantly prefer not to. More often than not I choose a boat with a lift, the only ladder I've climbed in the last three years is on Loyal Watcher. IMHO, climbing a ladder loaded with gear after a long dive is a very very bad idea. Cheers Rich __________________ The more I learn about women, the more I want to go diving... just don't tell my wife I said that To taste something a little different, try http://www.thechillikitchen.co.uk
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7th February 2006, 11:00	#25 (permalink)
Nick uk. Made in England. Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Azimuth Other Rebreather/s: Azimuth Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Viale C.Colombo 75 Marina di Carrara. MS 54036 Italy Posts: 575	Re: Opinions on bail-out Quote: (Originally Posted by RichClark) IMHO, climbing a ladder loaded with gear after a long dive is a very very bad idea. Cheers Rich Absolutely! I have a twin set for sale if anyone is interested. __________________ If it aint broke....don't fix it, and if it is.............well......get another one! divechief2000@hotmail.com
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7th February 2006, 16:18	#26 (permalink)
dantheman Emoticonoclast Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss rEvo Other Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss rEvo Join Date: May 2005 Location: NorthEast USA Posts: 390	Re: Opinions on bail-out Gordon said it best: Quote: If you carry more gas than this, and you should, it should be in the form of emergency bailout, open circuit gas in separate tanks. A larger diluent tank is not an adequate bailout gas supply. Carefully analyze the failure paths on your gas supply and don?t put all your eggs (gas) in one basket (tank). --dan
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7th February 2006, 17:07	#27 (permalink)
*jradomski* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx Posts: 3,001	Re: Opinions on bail-out Three Rules to Live by: Rule #1 - Don't Trust your rebreather, it will eventually fail. Rule #2 - Carry Independent Bail-out Rule #3 - Refer to Rule #1 __________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated.
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7th February 2006, 20:44	#28 (permalink)
Mike Prism 'prentice Current Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Evolution Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Melbourne Posts: 329	Re: Opinions on bail-out I've got no problem with people wanting an independant bailout supply, but instead of just asserting it is required, (or repeating someone elses assertion - almost sounds like a cool aid drinker) how about stating a scenario / failure mode where it would not be possible to get back to the surface using onboard dil? Add some value, not just retoric This is in the scenario where the dive is planned such that the onboard dil will have enough volume to be used for successful bailout from any point on the dive. I equate this to dives I used to do on a single tank, ie ~40m depth, no significant deco. FWIW, my thoughts are that I can stay on the loop in the event of a total dil loss, swim up and use O2 for boyancy control to do a 5m stop. Or in the event of a loop loss, I can surface on the dil bottle. I've done it for real in a 'not happy' situation from 27m, and it wasn't a problem with 3l onboard - I figure I need 150 litres of gas minimum from 30m. As far as I can see this approach is safe. If there's something I've missed, I'd much rather be told I'm and idiot now, than find it out for myself later. Mike __________________ Open ....... Closed Mind ........ Loop
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7th February 2006, 20:57	#29 (permalink)
*jradomski* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx Posts: 3,001	Re: Opinions on bail-out Quote: (Originally Posted by Mike) I've got no problem with people wanting an independant bailout supply, but instead of just asserting it is required, (or repeating someone elses assertion - almost sounds like a cool aid drinker) how about stating a scenario / failure mode where it would not be possible to get back to the surface using onboard dil? Add some value, not just retoric This is in the scenario where the dive is planned such that the onboard dil will have enough volume to be used for successful bailout from any point on the dive. I equate this to dives I used to do on a single tank, ie ~40m depth, no significant deco. FWIW, my thoughts are that I can stay on the loop in the event of a total dil loss, swim up and use O2 for boyancy control to do a 5m stop. Or in the event of a loop loss, I can surface on the dil bottle. I've done it for real in a 'not happy' situation from 27m, and it wasn't a problem with 3l onboard - I figure I need 150 litres of gas minimum from 30m. As far as I can see this approach is safe. If there's something I've missed, I'd much rather be told I'm and idiot now, than find it out for myself later. Mike I already did state one.. Failure of diluent regulator during descent.. It HAS happened to me and I have seen it happen to several others.. __________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated.
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7th February 2006, 21:13	#30 (permalink)
Mike Prism 'prentice Current Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Evolution Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Melbourne Posts: 329	Re: Opinions on bail-out Perhaps a safer (ie controlled) descent rate would be a better solution? I'm not aware of there being a huge number of deaths from this in single tank diving, where the scenario is the same, it's just the volume of gas is greater? Admittedly though it is a valid scenario - if you are dangerously negative at the same time as your dil lets go, and you are diving with no hard floor and no useful buddies, then you are going to be in trouble. I'll make a point of diving a bit more conservatively than that if not carrying bailout... Mike __________________ Open ....... Closed Mind ........ Loop
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