Optima/Hammerhead Primary Handset Failure During Dive?

**sfldiver** · 17th March 2008, 17:50

Yesterday I had an interesting thing happen to me while diving my Optima FX w/ Delrin Hammerhead Handsets, so I thought I'd post it and see if this was an isolated incident or if it's happened to others as well:

I was diving on the Wreck of the Ancient Mariner in approximately 70 feet of depth yesterday morning. There was minimal to no current and the visibily was probably in the area of 75'. At the time of this incident, I was kneeling in the sand and was taking pictures at the edge of the wreck, while my buddy, who was approximately 25 feet behind me in the sand was practicing some skills, because he had recently made some configuration changes to his setup.

After about 25 minutes of diving at a setpoint of 1.2, I looked at my primary handset, as I had done often throughout the dive, and noticed the screen was blank. I immediately looked over at my VR3 (4th Cell) and noticed my setpoint was just below 1.0 and dropping. I tried pushing the buttons and slightly knocking on the primary handset with my right hand, but no luck, it was dead. I immediatley increased my setpoint manually and turned to notify my buddy of the problem and started for the ascent line, which was only 50 feet from my current position. My buddy immediately understood the signal I gave him that the primary handset had failed and joined me at the ascent line. I ascended, maintaining my PO2 manually and monitoring it via my VR3 and HUD, completed a brief safety stop and exited the water.

The situation never escalated into a bigger problem, because I noticed it pretty early, and the training kicked in pretty smoothly, but that may have been different if I would have not looked at it when I did, which sometimes happens when I'm taking pictures.

Once onboard the boat, I removed my gear, I dried off the handset and fiddled with it a bit, but no luck. I took a backup battery from my tool kit, openned the battery compartment and replaced the battery with a new fresh Duracel and the handset activated up right away. Keep in mind, that the battery that was in the handset was a fresh battery that I had exchanged a couple of hours earlier that morning, as I do every morning before I go diving (At $0.50 a battery, it seems like a reasonable precaution). I then proceeded to take out my volt meter from my tool kit and measured the Duracel, which appeared to be just fine.

I recognize that the battery I removed from my handset could have still been week, even though the voltage appeared ok, but I was just curious if anyone else had experienced a similar problem with the Delrin Hammerhead Handsts before? I did not dive again, so I haven't used my unit since, but it looks ok, should I be concerned? Could it have been a poor contact? If it was the battery, should I not have recieved some sort of battery warning?

Mark Chase · 17th March 2008, 18:07

I had this happen a few times. I was told duff battery, bad connection. I simply couldn't believe that i had found the worlds supply of duff Duracell's so i tried Noalox anti oxidant and conductive grease on the connectors but in the end I gave up and never got to the bottom of it.

I had hoped the new hand sets would be immune. I had the nickle ones and then the anodized aluminum.

ATB

Mark

***diverklondike*** · 17th March 2008, 18:08

I would check the contacts. Over time they do need to be cleaned.

jkaterenchuk · 17th March 2008, 18:40

I assume the secondary was still functioning?

I like Mark have had the same thing happen many times and if gets extremely frustrating to say the least. I am also using the older style. I also put into place the change battery with the scrubber procedure, new one every dive day, cleaning the battery contact and the Naolox treatment. All of these things improved the situation and I have not had it reoccur for sometime.

Getting to this point was extremely irritating and from my perspective should have not been necessary.

Muzz · 17th March 2008, 20:38

What was the HUD doing?
Flashing - Vibrating

**sfldiver** · 17th March 2008, 20:50

Quote: (Originally Posted by Muzz)

What was the HUD doing?
Flashing - Vibrating

The HUD continued to accurately flash the PO2 for each of the three sensors, because it's controlled by the secondary hanset, which had no apparent problems during the dive - I would imagine that was the intent of the design - redundancy.

***jradomski*** · 17th March 2008, 20:55

Quote: (Originally Posted by sfldiver)

Yesterday I had an interesting thing happen to me while diving my Optima FX w/ Delrin Hammerhead Handsets, so I thought I'd post it and see if this was an isolated incident or if it's happened to others as well:

I was diving on the Wreck of the Ancient Mariner in approximately 70 feet of depth yesterday morning. There was minimal to no current and the visibily was probably in the area of 75'. At the time of this incident, I was kneeling in the sand and was taking pictures at the edge of the wreck, while my buddy, who was approximately 25 feet behind me in the sand was practicing some skills, because he had recently made some configuration changes to his setup.

After about 25 minutes of diving at a setpoint of 1.2, I looked at my primary handset, as I had done often throughout the dive, and noticed the screen was blank. I immediately looked over at my VR3 (4th Cell) and noticed my setpoint was just below 1.0 and dropping. I tried pushing the buttons and slightly knocking on the primary handset with my right hand, but no luck, it was dead. I immediatley increased my setpoint manually and turned to notify my buddy of the problem and started for the ascent line, which was only 50 feet from my current position. My buddy immediately understood the signal I gave him that the primary handset had failed and joined me at the ascent line. I ascended, maintaining my PO2 manually and monitoring it via my VR3 and HUD, completed a brief safety stop and exited the water.

The situation never escalated into a bigger problem, because I noticed it pretty early, and the training kicked in pretty smoothly, but that may have been different if I would have not looked at it when I did, which sometimes happens when I'm taking pictures.

Once onboard the boat, I removed my gear, I dried off the handset and fiddled with it a bit, but no luck. I took a backup battery from my tool kit, openned the battery compartment and replaced the battery with a new fresh Duracel and the handset activated up right away. Keep in mind, that the battery that was in the handset was a fresh battery that I had exchanged a couple of hours earlier that morning, as I do every morning before I go diving (At $0.50 a battery, it seems like a reasonable precaution). I then proceeded to take out my volt meter from my tool kit and measured the Duracel, which appeared to be just fine.

I recognize that the battery I removed from my handset could have still been week, even though the voltage appeared ok, but I was just curious if anyone else had experienced a similar problem with the Delrin Hammerhead Handsts before? I did not dive again, so I haven't used my unit since, but it looks ok, should I be concerned? Could it have been a poor contact? If it was the battery, should I not have recieved some sort of battery warning?

What do you have your battery alarm set at?? Do you check what it is saying?? I have seen BRAND NEW batteries give alarms after only a short period of use.. just because its new does not mean its good.. The battery monitor measures the battery under load, a simple volt meter test is useless in that a battery might be able to produce a voltage but not produce any current.. a momentary alarm occasionally (set at 1.2v) when both the Backlight and solenoid are firing is usually ok (not ok without any additional load) but the alarm getting set continually points to a weak cell.. If the voltage drops below 1.0v the controller will reset..

If you can't answer what the voltage was, you aren't paying close enough attention to the information that the handset is telling you.. BTW I just ran 4 CCR classes (and some dives before) on a single set of lithium 3.6v cells.. During each class I never removed the cells.. I finally changed them when the alarms got continual (mostly 2.9v) on the last dive of the 4th class (but no problems yet underwater).

I would also make sure the contacts are clean.. They are now SS so it shoulndt be an issue but a cleaning now and then helps.. A point alot of people overlook is the contacts on the batteries themsleves.. Batteries tarnish quiete easily when exposed to air.. hit each side with an eraser and you would be surprised how shiny they get..

Mark Chase · 17th March 2008, 21:17

I find it odd the huge number of items i own with batteries in them that don't give me any trouble at all, I have never cleaned a battery contact on any thing before I got the HH and i never had a faulty battery.

ATB

Mark

smokey · 17th March 2008, 22:02

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase)

I find it odd the huge number of items i own with batteries in them that don't give me any trouble at all, I have never cleaned a battery contact on any thing before I got the HH and i never had a faulty battery.

ATB

Mark

Very true !

Could it be the extra load of the solinoid breaking down the contact. The screw caps actually score the cell, on the new handsets much improvement.

The cell voltage warning should have picked this up ?

I too had problems with the older hand sets, please dont let this happen again.

Duracell are not perfect I found a cell with reverced polarity, yes the + was - and the - was + wish I had sent it back might have gave me a hole box for HH use.

Currently useing Duracell "professional" industrial seem to be ok,

***jradomski*** · 17th March 2008, 22:32

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase)

I find it odd the huge number of items i own with batteries in them that don't give me any trouble at all, I have never cleaned a battery contact on any thing before I got the HH and i never had a faulty battery.

ATB

Mark

cleaning the contact is not mandatory, but devices like the HH have high transitory currents (very different requirements from constant draw devices) and a good contact is a must, a little extra resistance means wasted and reduced power.. in theory at 1.2v with the backlight on and the solenoid firing there could be pulses (very short) in the range of 1A.. a poor contact would show here.... so the lower the battery voltage the greater the transitory current needs to be.. use a 3.6v cell and the transitory currents are 1/3 that of the lower voltage cell..

The key to rember is how much current a specific device needs and at what voltage.. for example the solenoid needs about 6v at 100ma, if you source this from a lower voltage source higher current is needed to supply the appropriate power.. so at 1.2v, the current needed would be (6/1.2 ) * current needed at higher voltage- so the solenoid by itself required .5A surges @1.2v! (at 100% efficiency - Not likely) to supply 6v@100ma

The only solution around these issues is not to use primary cells and only use known secondary cells just as Alex advocates.. otherwise the best you can do is take precautions..

17th March 2008, 17:50	#1 (permalink)
sfldiver Team Optima Diver Current Rebreather/s: Optima Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Pompano Beach, FL Posts: 664	Optima/Hammerhead Primary Handset Failure During Dive? Yesterday I had an interesting thing happen to me while diving my Optima FX w/ Delrin Hammerhead Handsets, so I thought I'd post it and see if this was an isolated incident or if it's happened to others as well: I was diving on the Wreck of the Ancient Mariner in approximately 70 feet of depth yesterday morning. There was minimal to no current and the visibily was probably in the area of 75'. At the time of this incident, I was kneeling in the sand and was taking pictures at the edge of the wreck, while my buddy, who was approximately 25 feet behind me in the sand was practicing some skills, because he had recently made some configuration changes to his setup. After about 25 minutes of diving at a setpoint of 1.2, I looked at my primary handset, as I had done often throughout the dive, and noticed the screen was blank. I immediately looked over at my VR3 (4th Cell) and noticed my setpoint was just below 1.0 and dropping. I tried pushing the buttons and slightly knocking on the primary handset with my right hand, but no luck, it was dead. I immediatley increased my setpoint manually and turned to notify my buddy of the problem and started for the ascent line, which was only 50 feet from my current position. My buddy immediately understood the signal I gave him that the primary handset had failed and joined me at the ascent line. I ascended, maintaining my PO2 manually and monitoring it via my VR3 and HUD, completed a brief safety stop and exited the water. The situation never escalated into a bigger problem, because I noticed it pretty early, and the training kicked in pretty smoothly, but that may have been different if I would have not looked at it when I did, which sometimes happens when I'm taking pictures. Once onboard the boat, I removed my gear, I dried off the handset and fiddled with it a bit, but no luck. I took a backup battery from my tool kit, openned the battery compartment and replaced the battery with a new fresh Duracel and the handset activated up right away. Keep in mind, that the battery that was in the handset was a fresh battery that I had exchanged a couple of hours earlier that morning, as I do every morning before I go diving (At $0.50 a battery, it seems like a reasonable precaution). I then proceeded to take out my volt meter from my tool kit and measured the Duracel, which appeared to be just fine. I recognize that the battery I removed from my handset could have still been week, even though the voltage appeared ok, but I was just curious if anyone else had experienced a similar problem with the Delrin Hammerhead Handsts before? I did not dive again, so I haven't used my unit since, but it looks ok, should I be concerned? Could it have been a poor contact? If it was the battery, should I not have recieved some sort of battery warning? __________________ *Currently piloting & shooting...* Dive Rite O2ptima FX Rigged w/ a Dsix Custom Aluminum Frame, Nomad Wing, Transpac Harness and VR3 Computer w/ VPM-B/E & a 4th Cell Sensor Link.* Canon PowerShot G9 Digital Camera Rigged in a Patima-PDCH 2008 G9 Aluminum Housing w/ an Inon UWL-100 Achromat Wide Conversion Lens, 2 Inon UCL-165M67 Close-Up Lenses and 2 Inon Z-240 Strobes. Last edited by sfldiver : 17th March 2008 at 18:48.*
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17th March 2008, 18:07	#2 (permalink)
Mark Chase I go down for ages Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kent Posts: 2,470	Re: Optima/Hammerhead Primary Handset Failure During Dive? I had this happen a few times. I was told duff battery, bad connection. I simply couldn't believe that i had found the worlds supply of duff Duracell's so i tried Noalox anti oxidant and conductive grease on the connectors but in the end I gave up and never got to the bottom of it. I had hoped the new hand sets would be immune. I had the nickle ones and then the anodized aluminum. ATB Mark __________________ Is it supposed to make that noise ? I took my unit to the dive shop and demanded they bolt on every thing that would fit. Join my elite diving teem and get a Tshirt "Doing It Chasey"Hammerhead Eccr Advanced Diving System
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17th March 2008, 18:08	#3 (permalink)
*diverklondike* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Delaware, USA Posts: 1,462	Re: Optima/Hammerhead Primary Handset Failure During Dive? I would check the contacts. Over time they do need to be cleaned.
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17th March 2008, 18:40	#4 (permalink)
jkaterenchuk . Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Megalodon Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: May 2006 Location: Lititz, PA Posts: 652	Re: Optima/Hammerhead Primary Handset Failure During Dive? I assume the secondary was still functioning? I like Mark have had the same thing happen many times and if gets extremely frustrating to say the least. I am also using the older style. I also put into place the change battery with the scrubber procedure, new one every dive day, cleaning the battery contact and the Naolox treatment. All of these things improved the situation and I have not had it reoccur for sometime. Getting to this point was extremely irritating and from my perspective should have not been necessary.
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17th March 2008, 20:38	#5 (permalink)
Muzz New Member Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Optima Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Pompano Beach FL Posts: 114	Re: Optima/Hammerhead Primary Handset Failure During Dive? What was the HUD doing? Flashing - Vibrating __________________ Note: Avitar by Barney
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17th March 2008, 20:50	#6 (permalink)
sfldiver Team Optima Diver Current Rebreather/s: Optima Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Pompano Beach, FL Posts: 664	Re: Optima/Hammerhead Primary Handset Failure During Dive? Quote: (Originally Posted by Muzz) What was the HUD doing? Flashing - Vibrating The HUD continued to accurately flash the PO2 for each of the three sensors, because it's controlled by the secondary hanset, which had no apparent problems during the dive - I would imagine that was the intent of the design - redundancy. __________________ *Currently piloting & shooting...* Dive Rite O2ptima FX Rigged w/ a Dsix Custom Aluminum Frame, Nomad Wing, Transpac Harness and VR3 Computer w/ VPM-B/E & a 4th Cell Sensor Link.* Canon PowerShot G9 Digital Camera *Rigged in a Patima-PDCH 2008 G9 Aluminum Housing w/ an Inon UWL-100 Achromat Wide Conversion Lens, 2 Inon UCL-165M67 Close-Up Lenses and 2 Inon Z-240 Strobes.
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17th March 2008, 20:55	#7 (permalink)
*jradomski* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx Posts: 2,817	Re: Optima/Hammerhead Primary Handset Failure During Dive? Quote: (Originally Posted by sfldiver) Yesterday I had an interesting thing happen to me while diving my Optima FX w/ Delrin Hammerhead Handsets, so I thought I'd post it and see if this was an isolated incident or if it's happened to others as well: I was diving on the Wreck of the Ancient Mariner in approximately 70 feet of depth yesterday morning. There was minimal to no current and the visibily was probably in the area of 75'. At the time of this incident, I was kneeling in the sand and was taking pictures at the edge of the wreck, while my buddy, who was approximately 25 feet behind me in the sand was practicing some skills, because he had recently made some configuration changes to his setup. After about 25 minutes of diving at a setpoint of 1.2, I looked at my primary handset, as I had done often throughout the dive, and noticed the screen was blank. I immediately looked over at my VR3 (4th Cell) and noticed my setpoint was just below 1.0 and dropping. I tried pushing the buttons and slightly knocking on the primary handset with my right hand, but no luck, it was dead. I immediatley increased my setpoint manually and turned to notify my buddy of the problem and started for the ascent line, which was only 50 feet from my current position. My buddy immediately understood the signal I gave him that the primary handset had failed and joined me at the ascent line. I ascended, maintaining my PO2 manually and monitoring it via my VR3 and HUD, completed a brief safety stop and exited the water. The situation never escalated into a bigger problem, because I noticed it pretty early, and the training kicked in pretty smoothly, but that may have been different if I would have not looked at it when I did, which sometimes happens when I'm taking pictures. Once onboard the boat, I removed my gear, I dried off the handset and fiddled with it a bit, but no luck. I took a backup battery from my tool kit, openned the battery compartment and replaced the battery with a new fresh Duracel and the handset activated up right away. Keep in mind, that the battery that was in the handset was a fresh battery that I had exchanged a couple of hours earlier that morning, as I do every morning before I go diving (At $0.50 a battery, it seems like a reasonable precaution). I then proceeded to take out my volt meter from my tool kit and measured the Duracel, which appeared to be just fine. I recognize that the battery I removed from my handset could have still been week, even though the voltage appeared ok, but I was just curious if anyone else had experienced a similar problem with the Delrin Hammerhead Handsts before? I did not dive again, so I haven't used my unit since, but it looks ok, should I be concerned? Could it have been a poor contact? If it was the battery, should I not have recieved some sort of battery warning? What do you have your battery alarm set at?? Do you check what it is saying?? I have seen BRAND NEW batteries give alarms after only a short period of use.. just because its new does not mean its good.. The battery monitor measures the battery under load, a simple volt meter test is useless in that a battery might be able to produce a voltage but not produce any current.. a momentary alarm occasionally (set at 1.2v) when both the Backlight and solenoid are firing is usually ok (not ok without any additional load) but the alarm getting set continually points to a weak cell.. If the voltage drops below 1.0v the controller will reset.. If you can't answer what the voltage was, you aren't paying close enough attention to the information that the handset is telling you.. BTW I just ran 4 CCR classes (and some dives before) on a single set of lithium 3.6v cells.. During each class I never removed the cells.. I finally changed them when the alarms got continual (mostly 2.9v) on the last dive of the 4th class (but no problems yet underwater). I would also make sure the contacts are clean.. They are now SS so it shoulndt be an issue but a cleaning now and then helps.. A point alot of people overlook is the contacts on the batteries themsleves.. Batteries tarnish quiete easily when exposed to air.. hit each side with an eraser and you would be surprised how shiny they get.. __________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated.
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17th March 2008, 21:17	#8 (permalink)
Mark Chase I go down for ages Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kent Posts: 2,470	Re: Optima/Hammerhead Primary Handset Failure During Dive? I find it odd the huge number of items i own with batteries in them that don't give me any trouble at all, I have never cleaned a battery contact on any thing before I got the HH and i never had a faulty battery. ATB Mark __________________ Is it supposed to make that noise ? I took my unit to the dive shop and demanded they bolt on every thing that would fit. Join my elite diving teem and get a Tshirt "Doing It Chasey"Hammerhead Eccr Advanced Diving System
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17th March 2008, 22:02	#9 (permalink)
smokey New Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Scotland Posts: 79	Re: Optima/Hammerhead Primary Handset Failure During Dive? Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase) I find it odd the huge number of items i own with batteries in them that don't give me any trouble at all, I have never cleaned a battery contact on any thing before I got the HH and i never had a faulty battery. ATB Mark Very true ! Could it be the extra load of the solinoid breaking down the contact. The screw caps actually score the cell, on the new handsets much improvement. The cell voltage warning should have picked this up ? I too had problems with the older hand sets, please dont let this happen again. Duracell are not perfect I found a cell with reverced polarity, yes the + was - and the - was + wish I had sent it back might have gave me a hole box for HH use. Currently useing Duracell "professional" industrial seem to be ok,
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17th March 2008, 22:32	#10 (permalink)
*jradomski* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx Posts: 2,817	Re: Optima/Hammerhead Primary Handset Failure During Dive? Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase) I find it odd the huge number of items i own with batteries in them that don't give me any trouble at all, I have never cleaned a battery contact on any thing before I got the HH and i never had a faulty battery. ATB Mark cleaning the contact is not mandatory, but devices like the HH have high transitory currents (very different requirements from constant draw devices) and a good contact is a must, a little extra resistance means wasted and reduced power.. in theory at 1.2v with the backlight on and the solenoid firing there could be pulses (very short) in the range of 1A.. a poor contact would show here.... so the lower the battery voltage the greater the transitory current needs to be.. use a 3.6v cell and the transitory currents are 1/3 that of the lower voltage cell.. The key to rember is how much current a specific device needs and at what voltage.. for example the solenoid needs about 6v at 100ma, if you source this from a lower voltage source higher current is needed to supply the appropriate power.. so at 1.2v, the current needed would be (6/1.2 ) * current needed at higher voltage- so the solenoid by itself required .5A surges @1.2v! (at 100% efficiency - Not likely) to supply 6v@100ma The only solution around these issues is not to use primary cells and only use known secondary cells just as Alex advocates.. otherwise the best you can do is take precautions.. __________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated. Last edited by jradomski : 17th March 2008 at 22:38.
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