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| | #21 (permalink) |
| Inspo Luver Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: UK, midlands
Posts: 87
![]() | Re: Optima/Hammerhead Primary Handset Failure During Dive? Mine are the Delrin handsets. Fitted fresh batteries before the dive. Batteries were still good after the dive. I dived today, 75m, 45mins into the dive on the acsent my primary shut down. Fresh pants were required at the time . The secondry worked ok so I ran it manual and after 5 mins the primary came back on showing no stop . No battery warning or low battery showing.When back on land after changing pants checked for any battery corrosion and there was none . I will no longer trust the HH ![]() Yesterday I had an interesting thing happen to me while diving my Optima FX w/ Delrin Hammerhead Handsets, so I thought I'd post it and see if this was an isolated incident or if it's happened to others as well: I was diving on the Wreck of the Ancient Mariner in approximately 70 feet of depth yesterday morning. There was minimal to no current and the visibily was probably in the area of 75'. At the time of this incident, I was kneeling in the sand and was taking pictures at the edge of the wreck, while my buddy, who was approximately 25 feet behind me in the sand was practicing some skills, because he had recently made some configuration changes to his setup. After about 25 minutes of diving at a setpoint of 1.2, I looked at my primary handset, as I had done often throughout the dive, and noticed the screen was blank. I immediately looked over at my VR3 (4th Cell) and noticed my setpoint was just below 1.0 and dropping. I tried pushing the buttons and slightly knocking on the primary handset with my right hand, but no luck, it was dead. I immediatley increased my setpoint manually and turned to notify my buddy of the problem and started for the ascent line, which was only 50 feet from my current position. My buddy immediately understood the signal I gave him that the primary handset had failed and joined me at the ascent line. I ascended, maintaining my PO2 manually and monitoring it via my VR3 and HUD, completed a brief safety stop and exited the water. The situation never escalated into a bigger problem, because I noticed it pretty early, and the training kicked in pretty smoothly, but that may have been different if I would have not looked at it when I did, which sometimes happens when I'm taking pictures. Once onboard the boat, I removed my gear, I dried off the handset and fiddled with it a bit, but no luck. I took a backup battery from my tool kit, openned the battery compartment and replaced the battery with a new fresh Duracel and the handset activated up right away. Keep in mind, that the battery that was in the handset was a fresh battery that I had exchanged a couple of hours earlier that morning, as I do every morning before I go diving (At $0.50 a battery, it seems like a reasonable precaution). I then proceeded to take out my volt meter from my tool kit and measured the Duracel, which appeared to be just fine. I recognize that the battery I removed from my handset could have still been week, even though the voltage appeared ok, but I was just curious if anyone else had experienced a similar problem with the Delrin Hammerhead Handsts before? I did not dive again, so I haven't used my unit since, but it looks ok, should I be concerned? Could it have been a poor contact? If it was the battery, should I not have recieved some sort of battery warning? |
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| | #22 (permalink) |
| S.C.R.U.B.'S Photographer ![]() Current Rebreather/s: Optima Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Pompano Beach, FL
Posts: 784
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | Re: Optima/Hammerhead Primary Handset Failure During Dive? Mine are the Delrin handsets. Shunzxr, I understand and share your frustration. Since I posted this thread, I have had my handsets reset once and shut down once. Granted, I dive every weekend, but if it happens once, it's way too often!Fitted fresh batteries before the dive. Batteries were still good after the dive. I dived today, 75m, 45mins into the dive on the acsent my primary shut down. Fresh pants were required at the time . The secondry worked ok so I ran it manual and after 5 mins the primary came back on showing no stop . No battery warning or low battery showing.When back on land after changing pants checked for any battery corrosion and there was none . I will no longer trust the HH ![]() I still use Duracel's and change them every day of diving and am obsessive about putting my handsets to sleep when I am not using them. I have also begun to be more selective about the voltage reading of the battery I put into the handset - What I mean is, when I put a battery in, if the voltage is not at least 1.5V, then I grab another battery from the pack. I only do that for the primary, because it draws more voltage, so I save the batteries that read 1.4V for the secondary handset. Fortunately, I have not been doing any extended range dives (deeper than 150ft or req. more than 25 min. decompression) lately, because those are the dives that I fear having the handset problem on. I have a backup (VR3 w/ 4th cell), but I've gotten used to having two active sources of confirming my decompression obligation at all times, so if my primary fails, I don't like only having the VR3, which works off of one cell, telling me what decompression obligation I have. As I've previously indicated, I'm seriously considering paying the money to activate my secondary handset, just so I have peace of mind. In the meantime, until I make the decision to fork out the cash to activate the secondary, if I do a long decompression dive, I will probably set my setpoint lower and manually fly my unit during the decompresson phase of the dive, so the selanoid does not drain the battery and cause the primary to shut down and/or reset, which causes the decompression info to vanish.
__________________ Currently piloting & shooting... ![]() Dive Rite O2ptima FX *Rigged w/ a Dsix Custom Aluminum Frame, Nomad Wing, Transpac Harness and VR3 Computer w/ VPM-B/E & a 4th Cell Sensor Link. Canon PowerShot G9 Digital Camera *Rigged in a Patima-PDCH 2008 G9 Aluminum Housing w/ an Inon UWL-100 Achromat Wide Conversion Lens, 2 Inon UCL-165M67 Close-Up Lenses and 2 Inon Z-240 Strobes. Last edited by sfldiver : 5th May 2008 at 22:30. |
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| | #23 (permalink) |
| Inspo Luver Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: UK, midlands
Posts: 87
![]() | Re: Optima/Hammerhead Primary Handset Failure During Dive? I also have the VR3 4th cell connected and I have the second handset with deco. Even so I was on the ascent and if I wasn't watching my PO2 I could have been in serious trouble as I was still deep. Iv'e had a word with Kevin, waiting for an answer, but without an obvious cause its hard to dive deep and enjoy the dive while waiting for it to happen again. |
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| | #24 (permalink) |
| Custom Title Allowed! ![]() Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Ouroboros Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 3,300
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | Re: Optima/Hammerhead Primary Handset Failure During Dive? , should I be concerned? ? should you be concerned that your life support system turned off without warning and for no apparent reason?um, yes, Id say thats reason enough to be concerned regardless of the cause ![]()
__________________ Cave diving is a sport Wreck diving is a sport Diving in general is a sport 'Rebreather diving' is not a sport its the delusional obsession with a highly dangerous and often inappropriate piece of equipment |
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| | #25 (permalink) |
| Custom Title Allowed! ![]() Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Ouroboros Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 3,300
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | Re: Optima/Hammerhead Primary Handset Failure During Dive? Please don't take this as jumping to conclusions, but is this possibly what may have lead to Mike's problem on Saturday near Pompano? crudded up molex certainly can corrupt the cell output signal. Ive seen this on my old inspiration and on Prism connectors. Ive seen cell outputs drop quite uniformaly (not to zero as Joe suggests) but enough of a drop to display say 1.0 when actual loop ppo2 is 1,3. Same can happen on othe connectors too its just a lot easier to whip crud off jack plug type (whicH are oodles better IMHO properly potted and unlike molex waterproofHaving worked in broadcast electronics over the years, I have truly come to not trust molex style connectors. After many missed top of the hour news casts on a radio network, All molex connectors in the cart playback machines were eliminated. Misfired newscasts went to near zero after that modification. I had 3 failures with my oxy 2 last year and every time it was due to the 3 pin molex connector that connects the 2 o2 sensors to the circuit board. After the 3rd failure, the female molex connector got cut off and the leads soldered directly to the pins on the O2 sensors. Haven't had a problem of that nature since. It is scary to think what all in the world relies on this style of interconnection. Electronic connections in the type of gear we are using is further troubled by the moist / salty environment we use it in.
__________________ Cave diving is a sport Wreck diving is a sport Diving in general is a sport 'Rebreather diving' is not a sport its the delusional obsession with a highly dangerous and often inappropriate piece of equipment |
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| | #26 (permalink) |
| New Member Current Rebreather/s: Optima Pelagian Other Rebreather/s: Megalodon Optima Titan Pelagian Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Southeastern Florida
Posts: 50
![]() ![]() | Re: Optima/Hammerhead Primary Handset Failure During Dive? Remember, we are taking electronics not only into the water, but into the salt water... I've had this happen. Do you have the latest Jurgensen upgrade, which addresses the problem of transient connectivity in the primary? If your HUD & secondary were reading correctly, the problem is not in the O2 cells- it's in the primary. You may want to contact DR & have the handset checked out. They're very easy to work with.
__________________ Complacency: Self-satisfaction especially when accompanied by ignorance of actual dangers or deficiencies. Success: A journey in which the improbable becomes possible, leading to surprising levels of achievement. Dr. Peri M. Blum Instructor, IANTD Member, Board of Advisors, IANTD www.supremedivers.com 561-901-9715 The opinions expressed herein are those of the author and the author’s alone. |
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| | #27 (permalink) |
| Submerge Productions Current Rebreather/s: | Re: Optima/Hammerhead Primary Handset Failure During Dive? Hi Peri, what problem are you referring to?
__________________ >>>>> www.submergeproductions.com dedicated to promoting technical diving >>>>> Check out our dive show video interviews and Wreck dive videos >>>>> Now also on iTunes and Zune |
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| | #28 (permalink) |
| New Member Current Rebreather/s: Optima Pelagian Other Rebreather/s: Megalodon Optima Titan Pelagian Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Southeastern Florida
Posts: 50
![]() ![]() | Re: Optima/Hammerhead Primary Handset Failure During Dive? As a non-engineer (is that a term? :-) the best way I can explain it is to document what occurred. John Jones, Kevin J., Mark Derrick & Tom M. can give a much more detailed explanation with a variety of arguments and counter-arguments :-) At about 135 fsw/40 msw, my solenoids cut out. I was very new to RBs, probably dive 3 or 4, so I was a bit slow on the uptake here. The unit tested fine at the surface. I was inside a wreck at the time. As I exited (changed body position, which we think had something to do with it) the solenoids suddenly rediscovered themselves, went off about 3x, & the CLs over-filled with O2. The PPO2 read 2.8. I ditched gas, went off the loop & whacked Tom on the fin. We bailed out of the dive (another instructor, Peter Sotis, was there so the other students could continue) & surfaced. Everything was fine on check-out between dives & during the descent on dive 2 (about 70 fsw/20 msw) & all stayed good until I went into/out of standard tech swim configuration. Solenoids cut out, then went ballistic again. Another ditched dive. From my understanding, either the battery lost connectivity and/or there was an electronics glitch. Many emails shot between Tom, Lamar, & Kevin. The issue, whatever it actually happened to be, was apparently fixed during the release of the most recent Jurgensen upgrade. There is some dissent as to whether the problem was electronics-driven or due to an older housing (Tom's older Optima). However, since the upgrade, this has not occurred on Tom's unit again, at least to my knowledge. By the way, the Optima is a perfect little lady and has been VERYwell-behaved lately <smile>.
__________________ Complacency: Self-satisfaction especially when accompanied by ignorance of actual dangers or deficiencies. Success: A journey in which the improbable becomes possible, leading to surprising levels of achievement. Dr. Peri M. Blum Instructor, IANTD Member, Board of Advisors, IANTD www.supremedivers.com 561-901-9715 The opinions expressed herein are those of the author and the author’s alone. Last edited by diveladydive : 8th May 2008 at 02:50. Reason: redundant word |
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| | #29 (permalink) |
| Moderator ![]() ![]() Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx
Posts: 2,996
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | Re: Optima/Hammerhead Primary Handset Failure During Dive? As a non-engineer (is that a term? :-) the best way I can explain it is to document what occurred. John Jones, Kevin J., Mark Derrick & Tom M. can give a much more detailed explanation with a variety of arguments and counter-arguments :-) At about 135 fsw/40 msw, my solenoids cut out. I was very new to RBs, probably dive 3 or 4, so I was a bit slow on the uptake here. The unit tested fine at the surface. I was inside a wreck at the time. As I exited (changed body position, which we think had something to do with it) the solenoids suddenly rediscovered themselves, went off about 3x, & the CLs over-filled with O2. The PPO2 read 2.8. I ditched gas, went off the loop & whacked Tom on the fin. We bailed out of the dive (another instructor, Peter Sotis, was there so the other students could continue) & surfaced. Everything was fine on check-out between dives & during the descent on dive 2 (about 70 fsw/20 msw) & all stayed good until I went into/out of standard tech swim configuration. Solenoids cut out, then went ballistic again. Another ditched dive. From my understanding, either the battery lost connectivity and/or there was an electronics glitch. Many emails shot between Tom, Lamar, & Kevin. The issue, whatever it actually happened to be, was apparently fixed during the release of the most recent Jurgensen upgrade. There is some dissent as to whether the problem was electronics-driven or due to an older housing (Tom's older Optima). However, since the upgrade, this has not occurred on Tom's unit again, at least to my knowledge. By the way, the Optima is a perfect little lady and has been VERYwell-behaved lately <smile>. There are different issues here... The first is that prior to the last update for the al handsets - around nov 2007 (delrin had the fix when they were released), when the system rebooted, the solenoid would be activated regardless of what the po2 was.. It takes several seconds to get a valid po2 reading, prior to this the system saw it as a low po2, so it injected.. This has 2 effects.. if its a marginal battery, this can cause the system to reset again especially if the diver tries to do anything on the handsets.. This will compound the problem.. The dead/reset issue if at a constant depth its USUALLY a dead cell, if it happend on asecent its usually a poor contact.. The contact issue is best solved by using a compound like noalox to prevent the formation of al-oxide.. and making sure the threads are coarse (you should feel some resistance when screwing the battery cap in) The released delrin unit have never had the oxygen on reboot issue, the ss cap has solved the contact issue most of the time.. its not perfect and probably will never be since the mechanical contacts are subject to stresses due to case compression.. The way to cover the very rare issue here is to use a silver conductive lubricant on the battery threads, and both battery contacts..
__________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated. |
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| | #30 (permalink) |
| . ![]() Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Megalodon Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: May 2006 Location: Lititz, PA
Posts: 810
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | Re: Optima/Hammerhead Primary Handset Failure During Dive? As a non-engineer (is that a term? :-) the best way I can explain it is to document what occurred. John Jones, Kevin J., Mark Derrick & Tom M. can give a much more detailed explanation with a variety of arguments and counter-arguments :-) Wreck penetration on your 3rd or 4th dive on a CCR. Please explain further? Was the rest of your dive group supportive of this dive plan?At about 135 fsw/40 msw, my solenoids cut out. I was very new to RBs, probably dive 3 or 4, so I was a bit slow on the uptake here. The unit tested fine at the surface. I was inside a wreck at the time. John |
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