HH buttons get stuck when it's 29 deg F

jhaaja · 14th February 2008, 11:25

Could it be so that the cold affects the crystal in the piezo element? So that it responds slower or changes shape slower?

JH

heyydude · 14th February 2008, 12:08

When we were doing some of the early testing for the US Navy Mark 16 Mod 2, we built a Secondary housing which used the same Piezo Switch that is in the Hammerhead - we found that it's sensitivity increased at 28 degrees F (where the units are tested in brine). We did not find any where the sensitivity decreased, but I would imagine this could be possible.

As one of the biggest consumers of these parts, we work very closely with the manufacturer to adjust their assembly technique to best fit our needs, and I'll bring this issue up with them next week.

As someone pointed out, these are sealed/filled switches, and the piezo element in them is made out of quartz crystals, so what we are probably seeing is the metal housing changing shape based upon the temperature, and that is somehow affecting the sensitivity.

But like many things in manufacturing, every change comes with a trade-off. We could get these made out of plastic, but then someone would crack or puncture them on the side of the boat, etc.

BTW: We couldn't use these switches in the Navy sets for reasons important to the Navy - the ones used in the Mark 16 are (of course) custom made.

Kevin Juergensen
Juergensen Marine, Inc.

jhaaja · 14th February 2008, 12:16

Thanks for the reply!

I also believe that somekind of changes happen in the crystal or the outer shell as temperature gets low enough.

Does not really do anything in practice. It all goes away after a few minutes in the 3-4C water.

My buttons were more sensitive. When pressed the options started scrolling for a few pushes worth.

JH

jiseson · 14th February 2008, 22:12

Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski)

I can honestly say I havet seen that happen, especially since there are no moving parts..

Were you trying to operate it with a gloved hand?? if so what king of glove?? I have done ICE diving with surface temps MUCH colder than 29f and had no issues at all..

glove -neoprene and bare hands-keven will call u in the am

**kybrt** · 15th February 2008, 05:58

keep the breather in the cabin pre dive?

get some chemical hand warmers and some wool socks, heaters activated and into the socks, ahndsets into the socks,rbberbands on outside to keep em on.?

two thoughts from an unorganized mind..........

jhaaja · 15th February 2008, 06:02

Or stay home and enjoy some fine alcohol beverages if it is that cold

JH

diverreb · 15th February 2008, 13:27

Quote: (Originally Posted by jhaaja)

Or stay home and enjoy some fine alcohol beverages if it is that cold

JH

Finally, a voice of reason in all this madness.

Richie

teomannaskali · 15th February 2008, 16:05

urinate on them...

this reminds me of a story i read in the Finnish newspaper some time ago.

3 Finnish dudes are walking along the railroad and boozing. It is freezing cold and all 3 hare quite drunk. 2 of the guys take advantage of the 3rd and convince him to lick the rail road. And obviously his tongue gets frozen stuck. They try to pull him out but their efforts are in vein. At that moment they hear the train coming and panic. In the end, the 2 guys pee on the 3rd guys tongue and it melts the frost of freeing him and saving his life. . .

jiseson · 15th February 2008, 17:21

Quote: (Originally Posted by teomannaskali)

urinate on them...

this reminds me of a story i read in the Finnish newspaper some time ago.

3 Finnish dudes are walking along the railroad and boozing. It is freezing cold and all 3 hare quite drunk. 2 of the guys take advantage of the 3rd and convince him to lick the rail road. And obviously his tongue gets frozen stuck. They try to pull him out but their efforts are in vein. At that moment they hear the train coming and panic. In the end, the 2 guys pee on the 3rd guys tongue and it melts the frost of freeing him and saving his life. . .

i bet that would work!

**Dsix36** · 15th February 2008, 17:59

I would rather get hit by the train!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

14th February 2008, 11:25	#11 (permalink)
jhaaja Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Finland Posts: 867	Re: HH buttons get stuck when it's 29 deg F Could it be so that the cold affects the crystal in the piezo element? So that it responds slower or changes shape slower? JH
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14th February 2008, 12:08	#12 (permalink)
heyydude King of the Geeks Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Optima Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: May 2005 Location: Addison, Pennsylvania Posts: 331	Re: HH buttons get stuck when it's 29 deg F When we were doing some of the early testing for the US Navy Mark 16 Mod 2, we built a Secondary housing which used the same Piezo Switch that is in the Hammerhead - we found that it's sensitivity increased at 28 degrees F (where the units are tested in brine). We did not find any where the sensitivity decreased, but I would imagine this could be possible. As one of the biggest consumers of these parts, we work very closely with the manufacturer to adjust their assembly technique to best fit our needs, and I'll bring this issue up with them next week. As someone pointed out, these are sealed/filled switches, and the piezo element in them is made out of quartz crystals, so what we are probably seeing is the metal housing changing shape based upon the temperature, and that is somehow affecting the sensitivity. But like many things in manufacturing, every change comes with a trade-off. We could get these made out of plastic, but then someone would crack or puncture them on the side of the boat, etc. BTW: We couldn't use these switches in the Navy sets for reasons important to the Navy - the ones used in the Mark 16 are (of course) custom made. Kevin Juergensen Juergensen Marine, Inc.
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14th February 2008, 12:16	#13 (permalink)
jhaaja Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Finland Posts: 867	Re: HH buttons get stuck when it's 29 deg F Thanks for the reply! I also believe that somekind of changes happen in the crystal or the outer shell as temperature gets low enough. Does not really do anything in practice. It all goes away after a few minutes in the 3-4C water. My buttons were more sensitive. When pressed the options started scrolling for a few pushes worth. JH
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14th February 2008, 22:12	#14 (permalink)
jiseson DSIX/O2PTIMA Current Rebreather/s: Optima Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: long island,ny Posts: 454	Re: HH buttons get stuck when it's 29 deg F Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski) I can honestly say I havet seen that happen, especially since there are no moving parts.. Were you trying to operate it with a gloved hand?? if so what king of glove?? I have done ICE diving with surface temps MUCH colder than 29f and had no issues at all.. glove -neoprene and bare hands-keven will call u in the am __________________ *Jonathan D Iseson* Last edited by jiseson : 14th February 2008 at 22:14.
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15th February 2008, 05:58	#15 (permalink)
kybrt too legit to quit Current Rebreather/s: rEvo Other Rebreather/s: rEvo Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Neuw Yawk Posts: 263	Re: HH buttons get stuck when it's 29 deg F keep the breather in the cabin pre dive? get some chemical hand warmers and some wool socks, heaters activated and into the socks, ahndsets into the socks,rbberbands on outside to keep em on.? two thoughts from an unorganized mind.......... __________________ Marv Fidelis Ad Mortem www.diveboatkaren.com
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15th February 2008, 06:02	#16 (permalink)
jhaaja Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Finland Posts: 867	Re: HH buttons get stuck when it's 29 deg F Or stay home and enjoy some fine alcohol beverages if it is that cold JH
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15th February 2008, 13:27	#17 (permalink)
diverreb DE/MD/NJ Wreck Diver Current Rebreather/s: Optima Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Dover, DE Posts: 517	Re: HH buttons get stuck when it's 29 deg F Quote: (Originally Posted by jhaaja) Or stay home and enjoy some fine alcohol beverages if it is that cold JH Finally, a voice of reason in all this madness. Richie
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15th February 2008, 16:05	#18 (permalink)
teomannaskali Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Home Build Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Istanbul TR Posts: 337	Re: HH buttons get stuck when it's 29 deg F urinate on them... this reminds me of a story i read in the Finnish newspaper some time ago. 3 Finnish dudes are walking along the railroad and boozing. It is freezing cold and all 3 hare quite drunk. 2 of the guys take advantage of the 3rd and convince him to lick the rail road. And obviously his tongue gets frozen stuck. They try to pull him out but their efforts are in vein. At that moment they hear the train coming and panic. In the end, the 2 guys pee on the 3rd guys tongue and it melts the frost of freeing him and saving his life. . .
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15th February 2008, 17:21	#19 (permalink)
jiseson DSIX/O2PTIMA Current Rebreather/s: Optima Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: long island,ny Posts: 454	Re: HH buttons get stuck when it's 29 deg F Quote: (Originally Posted by teomannaskali) urinate on them... this reminds me of a story i read in the Finnish newspaper some time ago. 3 Finnish dudes are walking along the railroad and boozing. It is freezing cold and all 3 hare quite drunk. 2 of the guys take advantage of the 3rd and convince him to lick the rail road. And obviously his tongue gets frozen stuck. They try to pull him out but their efforts are in vein. At that moment they hear the train coming and panic. In the end, the 2 guys pee on the 3rd guys tongue and it melts the frost of freeing him and saving his life. . . i bet that would work! __________________ *Jonathan D Iseson*
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15th February 2008, 17:59	#20 (permalink)
Dsix36 Going Down? Current Rebreather/s: Optima Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Deerfield Beach, Florida Posts: 891	Re: HH buttons get stuck when it's 29 deg F I would rather get hit by the train!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! __________________ THE MORE THAT I LEARN, THE MORE THAT I STILL NEED TO LEARN!!!!!!
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