[menofall]

Quote: (Originally Posted by Dave Sutton)

Everything came on the boat, and left on the boat (a 125 foot wooden trawler). Ahead of time? If it was not on the boat, it was not there. First three days was spent offloading cargo onto the shore. Next two weeks were spent organizing the gear & food (*ALL* food for 2 years: One for the planned year and another "spare year of food" year in case we got stuck there). Then all went on and on and on and...... on. Everything gets retrograded at the end. The huge deal is that you *always* need something that you don't have, you always have *cases* of crap that you will never use, and there will always be the STUPIDEST thing that ends up being the thorn in your side because you don't have it. Improvisation is the rule. No matter how well planned you will not have what you need. Things break, often on the first day, because conditions are not what you expect. We were down to one camera at the end. Started with 20.... Radios failed. We ran out of batteries and film. Wore out our clothes and no chance to get new. I was literally wearing rags when I got back. The list goes on and on. Did this twice. Boat went back and forth to South America about three times between late November when we arrived and February when it left... not to come back until next November. That's 9 months without mail, parts, or anything other than a crappy SSB radio connection. I made a total of two radio-patch phone calls home in a year and got three letters on the last boat in. Fun stuff.


Now, what rebreather would you take there if you were going there tomorrow? The most rugged darned thing you could find, and one that would work without batteries. Take a guess what I would take... ;-)


Dave

Looks like you made the wrong decision on the expedition camera, the expedition radios and the expedition clothes, but at least you had the expedition breather

[mverick]

Quote: (Originally Posted by Dave Sutton)

I can state that we did virtually zero gear maintenance at all. We used the stuff, it always worked, and we brought it home. Gear was never even washed: We had no extra diesel to make fresh water for that. No clothes washed either.. (which is why we went home in rags... the basalt dust cut the cloth to shreds like microscopic razors). Try not *washing* your gear for a year. It turns green. Good green gear still works!


Still dunno what point is being made here.... . The stuff just *worked* and represented about 1% of our total concerns. Some other lesson to be drawn here? Royal Aqua Master double hose regs were used without *any* maintenance at all. Unisuits were still warm (albeit leaky) after a season. Most of the stuff was remarkably reliable. All was top quality (for the time). The main thing that I saw there was that plastics don't hold up like metal, especially in the cold. We had no time to worry about gear, it just had to work every time, without concern.

Mainly my concern was working to keep our 25 HP Evinrude outboards running... Zodiacs in the ice was daily transport and the engines were my huge issue by a huge margin over anything else.



Dave

OK, I'll make it easy.

WHAT SPARES DID YOU BRING FOR THE MK15? A OFF THE TOP OF YOUR HEAD LIST IS FINE.

[dz3866]

Quote: (Originally Posted by mverick)

OK, I'll make it easy.

WHAT SPARES DID YOU BRING FOR THE MK15? A OFF THE TOP OF YOUR HEAD LIST IS FINE.

maybe he did not have the MK15, sounds like this expedition was back in the 1940s

[Dave Sutton]

Quote: (Originally Posted by mverick)

OK, I'll make it easy.

WHAT SPARES DID YOU BRING FOR THE MK15? A OFF THE TOP OF YOUR HEAD LIST IS FINE.

Two spare secondary meter movements (needed neither). 2 sets of cells. Not (nearly) enough batteries. 'Sorb and a dozen J's of 02. Bauer compressor for filling spheres (shared with the OC needs). Spare mouthpieces (used in Cressi Masks). Nothing much else, not enough to remember. Basic industrial O-Ring sets shared between many uses. Hmmm..... what else: No spare pods, no spare solenoids, no spare tubing, or gauges, or valves. No counterlungs, or DSV's, or harnesses, or shells. Just not a lot *in* a Mark-15 really. Cannot think of anything else. All spares fit in with the rig in one of the grey transit chests. After ALL of the batteries died, the pods were never even opened. Fly manual off the secondary. Never unscrewed a Bendix cable the entire time. Why tempt fate by breaking an O-Ring seal? Just open the center section, change the scrubber, top off the gas, and go. Gear works best when worked hard. Rarely (never?) used the back shell. Impossible to close with a gloved hand and just another step.

No wings, no BOV, no bailout. Nobody even *dreamed* of those things then. Scott DSV's, and no mods at all.

Most diving was done OC with double 72's, J-Valve, and Royal Aqua Master double hose. Never had parts for them either. None ever failed.


Your point is? (and we could have done as well with modified IDA-71's.... but not as well with any of the "all plastic rigs of today".. just no way.)


Start another thread if you want to persue this. With that said, there's not a lot more to say other than "Simple = Good". Less there is less to break, you don't need fancy electronics, and metal is stronger than plastic....



Best,

Dave

[mverick]

Quote: (Originally Posted by Dave Sutton)

Two spare secondary meter movements (needed neither). 2 sets of cells. Not (nearly) enough batteries. 'Sorb and a dozen J's of 02. Bauer compressor for filling spheres (shared with the OC needs). Spare mouthpieces (used in Cressi Masks). Nothing much else, not enough to remember. Basic industrial O-Ring sets shared between many uses. Hmmm..... what else: No spare pods, no spare solenoids, no spare tubing, or gauges, or valves. No counterlungs, or DSV's, or harnesses, or shells. Just not a lot *in* a Mark-15 really. Cannot think of anything else. All spares fit in with the rig in one of the grey transit chests.

Most diving was done OC with double 72's, J-Valve, and Royal Aqua Master double hose. Never had parts for them either. None ever failed.


Your point is?


Dave

Point is most expeditions require spares whether you need them or not. Just like you stated. It's not a place you're going to call Mcmaster and get something sent to you.

Only thing extra I'd of brung was some swagelock parts and a solenoid. If ya gotta change something the crimps on swagelocks can be junk and you need to replace the line. We do it a lot in Instrumentation. You can get work hardening if you don't insulate the lines from vibration right. Fractures the lines. Not really a problem on a Rebreather though. I like hard lines. I've seen them done wrong though and blown off at bad times.

It's a Rebreather site. I wanted to know the experience with the RB. Not the food or the boat.

Thanks for the info.

With my Rebreather I can fit 2 sets of lungs and the RB and all spares in the unit itself in a hardcase without the foam. Will all the spares I've stated and yours. Never had a failure either. I've been lucky. It ain't been to antartica but it's sat in the bed of a truck and been bouncing on the floor of a boat an awful lot. No issues.

I've got Apeks regs that have been going for 5-8 years without rebuild and no problems too... Only one's I've rebuilt was because I wanted to.

I've know of MK15's that were nothing but trouble for people also. Basicly because the units needed to be competely rebuilt. I'd love to have gotten one of the Ebay ones. Had contact with the guy and had a setup to buy 3 when he waffled and wanted to sell em at auction. Went for about the same priced I was offering. Which since they needed rebuilt, wan't that much.

Oh well, I'll get one one day. I like the MK15 over the 15.5. The plastic cover doesn't look as sturdy.

[Dave Sutton]

Quote: (Originally Posted by mverick)

Point is most expeditions require spares whether you need them or not. Just like you stated. It's not a place you're going to call Mcmaster and get something sent to you.

Only thing extra I'd of brung was some swagelock parts and a solenoid. If ya gotta change something the crimps on swagelocks can be junk and you need to replace the line. We do it a lot in Instrumentation. You can get work hardening if you don't insulate the lines from vibration right. Fractures the lines. Not really a problem on a Rebreather though. I like hard lines. I've seen them done wrong though and blown off at bad times.

It's a Rebreather site. I wanted to know the experience with the RB. Not the food or the boat.

Thanks for the info.

With my Rebreather I can fit 2 sets of lungs and the RB and all spares in the unit itself in a hardcase without the foam. Will all the spares I've stated and yours. Never had a failure either. I've been lucky. It ain't been to antartica but it's sat in the bed of a truck and been bouncing on the floor of a boat an awful lot. No issues.

I've got Apeks regs that have been going for 5-8 years without rebuild and no problems too... Only one's I've rebuilt was because I wanted to.

I've know of MK15's that were nothing but trouble for people also. Basicly because the units needed to be competely rebuilt. I'd love to have gotten one of the Ebay ones. Had contact with the guy and had a setup to buy 3 when he waffled and wanted to sell em at auction. Went for about the same priced I was offering. Which since they needed rebuilt, wan't that much.

Oh well, I'll get one one day. I like the MK15 over the 15.5. The plastic cover doesn't look as sturdy.

Cannot disagree with anything you have written, other than that I've never seen a Swageklok fitting fail in diving service, and I've seen literally thousands of them on Sat systems. They may "bubble" after being shipped, but just leak test 'em and tighten them a little. Never had a Mark-15 solenoid fail, but I guess it's a possibility. Those clapped out Mark-15's that all needed rebuild? They had probably come back from several years of maintenance "as described" by me.... . The Navy beat the living crap out of them, I've had ex-Navy ones here that looked like they had been dragged behind a truck. There is no doubt that there are several rigs that can take hard use. My question is "for how long"?". If I have a choice of something I have *seen* work, or something I "believe" will work, there's no choice. Tested always takes priority.

In the particular case of my little trip, even by todays rigs there is only one that would have worked battery-free, Mark-15 with analog secondary. Second choice (electronially) would be the Topaz, but there's no way in hell it would have stood up to the mechanical demands.

(and solenoids? We would have needed more batteries to run 'em.... )

The Ebay Mark-15's were sweet. One's sitting on my bench right now. They needed remarkably little work, but most of the pods were bad (bad transistor on the solenoid power circuit). Just nice to open up a box and find a *brand new* one in the plastic bag!


Dave

[silent running]

Quote: (Originally Posted by Dave Sutton)

First point: That has to do with *dive planning* and not on what the topic has become which is "what defines an expedition rebreather". The two topics are completely different and I was simply attempting to dissect one from the other. I can do an "extreme" dive on a day trip here in NJ and it's not an "expedition" and it does not require "expedition quality". I can do a 15 foot dive in the Antarctic, but if it took me a year to get there, the reliability of the equipment *cannot be in question*.

Nor can it's capability. You're not going to bring an SK for a 100M+ deep cave push 5 days hike into the jungle, no matter how light it may be, right? And you don't need anything more than say a Lar5 for 15ft dives, whether in your pool or the antarctic. How can dive planning not be part of expedition planning, isn't that the point of a dive expediton, to achieve a particular dive objective?

Quote: (Originally Posted by Dave Sutton)

The second topic is another issue, and I did not persue it because it's far past what is germane to the venue. It comes back to setting forth basic definitions, that's all. If we want to use a word, it would be helpful if we all agreed on the meaning. Nothing more is intended.
Dave

Thanks for the clarification Dave. -Andy

[silent running]

Quote: (Originally Posted by Dave Sutton)

Two spare secondary meter movements (needed neither).Dave

Dave, is it really possible that you managed to complete such a long, rough expediton without breaking even one of those fragile, single movement analogue meters? Who knew you were such a caring and sensitive dude? LOL. Come on, you walked right into that one. -Andy

[Dave Sutton]

Quote: (Originally Posted by silent running)

Dave, is it really possible that you managed to complete such a long, rough expediton without breaking even one of those fragile, single movement analogue meters? Who knew you were such a caring and sensitive dude? LOL. Come on, you walked right into that one. -Andy

Sometimes we're surprised by outcomes. I've busted them in my garage, and seen them break on the boat (steel deck), but not down there. Go figure. Concrete is apparently less forgiving than snow. Probably all boils down to peak G Loads when the thing is dropped.

We did carry spares though... and today if I were going back I'd carry an analog just because of the battery issues in the cold. Anywhere else I'd use the digital. That's just part of planning.


Dave

[Dave Sutton]

Quote: (Originally Posted by silent running)

Nor can it's capability. You're not going to bring an SK for a 100M+ deep cave push 5 days hike into the jungle, no matter how light it may be, right? And you don't need anything more than say a Lar5 for 15ft dives, whether in your pool or the antarctic. How can dive planning not be part of expedition planning, isn't that the point of a dive expediton, to achieve a particular dive objective?

Dive planning is dive planning no matter what.

Durability planning is another topic.


The two needs are parallel to each other, but are not the same.

This is the last thing I'm going to say about this:

My definition:

"EXPEDITION QUALITY MEANS TOUGH AND DURABLE DURING LONG PERIODS OF POSSIBLE ABUSE AND NEGLECT"

It does not always mean "super long dives planned " or "super deep dives planned".


Diferentiate the two and then we'll be using the same language.


Dave