mCCR or eCCR

Abbo · 10th September 2006, 03:59

I've been diving OC since '81, and I love it: it's so forgiving. In a remote location in the Philippines a dive shop charged me 25c/litre for Helium, and I knew then it was time to change - that's $1,000 for a 100m dive. Global supplies of easily recoverable Helium are likely to run out by 2020, and stronger-for-longer oil prices drive freight costs skyward, so the situation is only going to get worse. The first step on the decision tree is to decide: mechanical or electronic. I took a Pelagian course while in Thailand - a mechanical rebreather. I was surprised that the task loading was not really a problem, but I know that when the poop hits the fan IQ drops 50%, and it might be nice to have a computer that says "ahem, are you sure you want to do that?". Computers are inherently unreliable, but add water and they turn from Mogwai to Gremlin. I have a personal aversion to dying. Choice of rebreather is a personal decision, and the best thing would be to try them all. That would take too much time and wad. Have you any advice that would simplify the decision?

Simon A · 10th September 2006, 07:41

Abbo,
With new products that are just becoming available. You dont actually have to decide if you want MCCR or ECCR a couple of rebreathers are available with both types of control. The meg is now available with both types of head(Apecs 2 ECCR and COPIS MCCR), and the Kiss has aftermarket electronics available for it. however if you want an Inspo or an Optima you'll have to stick with MCCR( edit:- this is wrong they are ECCR, must not post while drunk).
I dive an ECCR but that was purely down to what was available second hand at the price point I was willing to pay.
HTH
Simon A

RebreatherDave · 10th September 2006, 16:45

And here all along I thought my Inspo with Vision electronics automatically maintained my p02 setpoint and did setpoint switching automatically upon descent for me....I had no idea it was an mCCR

**Gill Envy** · 10th September 2006, 22:22

Quote: (Originally Posted by Simon A)

Abbo,
however if you want an Inspo or an Optima you'll have to stick with MCCR.
Simon A

Me thinks ye wrote mCCR when meant eCCR.

Any way, Abbo, I purchased for an evolution, have under 50 hours on it and i do mostly recreational depths with it, though i know folks who are putting their's through the paces with deeper dives. My unit has been great, my wife's has illustrated some of the downsides of an eCCR in terms how little they are field servicable...a nearly ruined 10 day trip to BC and 6 weeks to get it fixed, all for a few loose wires.

tell us a little bit more about the kind of diving you wish to do, i think that would help. I'm assuming that since you are talking the price of helium that you are doing relatively deep/long dives. Certianly saving on expensive gas seems to be one of the things compelling tec OC divers to make the switch.

when comparing and contrasting units and aproaches, while i'm not an authority and have not owned multiple units, I think of it like this:

There is no perfect rebreather at this point, it is a matter of your specific needs and preferences, furtunately there are some really good options available to you these days. I have observed that Evo/inspo owners tend to love their breathers for the vision electronics, meg owners champion their units for rock solid build quality and modularity, Kiss owners for their units moderate price and simplicity/field servicability, and Optima owners love the ease of use of the extandair cartridges and the all the D+R that diverite has put into their cross-over components.

As far as mCCR vs eCCR, it would seem, if the stats reveal a true tendency, that mCCR's are safer. If there is a linear relationship in the stats, in other words if the difference in fatalities does reflect an inherent difference rather than simply reflecting that eCCR divers tend to be folks who push the envelope more, then perhaps it lies in the fact that an mCCR diver not only watches their PO2 frequently but actually has to be intimately engaged in the O2 controlling system, not just looking and monitoring but actually thinking and adjusting it acordingly. It has been argued that this level of engagment requires that the mCCR diver be on top of things constantly, never relying entirely on their system to keep them alive. While many would argue that this is still inconclusive, the numbers are compelling... 0% fatality rate on the KISS.

if you wish to go with an mCCR, then you would certainly look at the kiss, except recently the Copis meg has come out, combining the mCCR aproach of the kiss with, hands down, superior build quality. If I were to go the mCCR route, the copis meg is certainly the direction i'd go.

As much as i can see the wisdom in going mCCR, i really enjoy having integrated deco, auto injection o2 and the temp stick of the vision electronics. I am contantly reminding myself that even though it's automatic, or perhaps especially so, i need to act like it could malfunction at any time. perhaps eroniously, i have decided that since i'm not pushing the enevolope with depth or overhead environments the risk associated with eCCR feels more manageable.

to mitigate the added risk of eCCR's and their tendency to breed complacency, many divers choose to place their computers to a low set point and maintain a normal running set point manually with the thought that this engages the user like an mCCR. I understand the thinking here but am not sure if that effects the stats though. Over time, I may adopt this habit if the numbers continue to bear out accordingly.

good luck in your decition, take your time and read up on all the back posts and if possible, get to know people in your area who own a rebreather.

***EBT*** · 10th September 2006, 23:31

Quote: (Originally Posted by Gillenvy)

As far as mCCR vs eCCR, it would seem, if the stats reveal a true tendency, that mCCR's are safer. If there is a linear relationship in the stats, in other words if the difference in fatalities does reflect an inherent difference rather than simply reflecting that eCCR divers tend to be folks who push the envelope more, then perhaps it lies in the fact that an mCCR diver not only watches their PO2 frequently but actually has to be intimately engaged in the O2 controlling system, not just looking and monitoring but actually thinking and adjusting it acordingly. It has been argued that this level of engagment requires that the mCCR diver be on top of things constantly, never relying entirely on their system to keep them alive. While many would argue that this is still inconclusive, the numbers are compelling... 0% fatality rate on the KISS.

Every unit is different, that much we all agree on. I cant help but think that the KISS's good luck on the incidents record comes down more to the type of people who are selecting the unit. ie its not JUST the choice of unit.

Whichever machine you pick, I heard some wise words that have always stuck with me "Rebreathers are expensive, because each and every one comes with its own personal gremlin, ready to bite the second your back is turned".

Good luck

Abbo · 11th September 2006, 06:07

Many thanks for your kind help

Simon A · 11th September 2006, 08:04

Rebreather dave is correct, optima's and inspirations are ECCR, I had a brain fart when writing the post.
Simon A

Nicholas von Rosen · 11th September 2006, 17:34

Quote: (Originally Posted by Abbo)

I've been diving OC since '81, and I love it: it's so forgiving. In a remote location in the Philippines a dive shop charged me 25c/litre for Helium, and I knew then it was time to change - that's $1,000 for a 100m dive. Global supplies of easily recoverable Helium are likely to run out by 2020, and stronger-for-longer oil prices drive freight costs skyward, so the situation is only going to get worse. The first step on the decision tree is to decide: mechanical or electronic. I took a Pelagian course while in Thailand - a mechanical rebreather. I was surprised that the task loading was not really a problem, but I know that when the poop hits the fan IQ drops 50%, and it might be nice to have a computer that says "ahem, are you sure you want to do that?". Computers are inherently unreliable, but add water and they turn from Mogwai to Gremlin. I have a personal aversion to dying. Choice of rebreather is a personal decision, and the best thing would be to try them all. That would take too much time and wad. Have you any advice that would simplify the decision?

I'm lazy...

I would go for a ECCR any day...

Nick

***schford*** · 11th September 2006, 18:07

Every eCCR can me an mCCR if you want - mine is - I fly my Meg manually and use the electronics as a safety net.

when I hear the solenoid kick in occasionally I always give me self a slap for not paying attention.

Stuart

Mixaddict · 11th September 2006, 20:33

Quote: (Originally Posted by schford)

Every eCCR can me an mCCR if you want - mine is - I fly my Meg manually and use the electronics as a safety net.

when I hear the solenoid kick in occasionally I always give me self a slap for not paying attention.

Stuart

Stuart,

I do the same thing, and it sure does make me angry when I find that I have not paid attention sufficiently, and the electronics kick in! It is certainly a wake up call when it happens!

Regards,
Randy

10th September 2006, 03:59	#1 (permalink)
Abbo Going down on Meg Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Tokyo Posts: 375	mCCR or eCCR I've been diving OC since '81, and I love it: it's so forgiving. In a remote location in the Philippines a dive shop charged me 25c/litre for Helium, and I knew then it was time to change - that's $1,000 for a 100m dive. Global supplies of easily recoverable Helium are likely to run out by 2020, and stronger-for-longer oil prices drive freight costs skyward, so the situation is only going to get worse. The first step on the decision tree is to decide: mechanical or electronic. I took a Pelagian course while in Thailand - a mechanical rebreather. I was surprised that the task loading was not really a problem, but I know that when the poop hits the fan IQ drops 50%, and it might be nice to have a computer that says "ahem, are you sure you want to do that?". Computers are inherently unreliable, but add water and they turn from Mogwai to Gremlin. I have a personal aversion to dying. Choice of rebreather is a personal decision, and the best thing would be to try them all. That would take too much time and wad. Have you any advice that would simplify the decision?
(Online)

10th September 2006, 07:41	#2 (permalink)
Simon A Escapee from DIY Rebreather's Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Reading, UK Posts: 280	Re: mCCR or eCCR Abbo, With new products that are just becoming available. You dont actually have to decide if you want MCCR or ECCR a couple of rebreathers are available with both types of control. The meg is now available with both types of head(Apecs 2 ECCR and COPIS MCCR), and the Kiss has aftermarket electronics available for it. however if you want an Inspo or an Optima you'll have to stick with MCCR( edit:- this is wrong they are ECCR, must not post while drunk). I dive an ECCR but that was purely down to what was available second hand at the price point I was willing to pay. HTH Simon A Last edited by Simon A : 11th September 2006 at 08:02.
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10th September 2006, 16:45	#3 (permalink)
RebreatherDave Maximum **** Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s:** Join Date: May 2005 Location: L.A., where the debris meets the sea Posts: 227	Re: mCCR or eCCR And here all along I thought my Inspo with Vision electronics automatically maintained my p02 setpoint and did setpoint switching automatically upon descent for me....I had no idea it was an mCCR
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10th September 2006, 22:22	#4 (permalink)
Gill Envy Shearwater Copis Diver Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Evolution Other CCR Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: seattle Posts: 1,209	Re: mCCR or eCCR Quote: (Originally Posted by Simon A) Abbo, however if you want an Inspo or an Optima you'll have to stick with MCCR. Simon A Me thinks ye wrote mCCR when meant eCCR. Any way, Abbo, I purchased for an evolution, have under 50 hours on it and i do mostly recreational depths with it, though i know folks who are putting their's through the paces with deeper dives. My unit has been great, my wife's has illustrated some of the downsides of an eCCR in terms how little they are field servicable...a nearly ruined 10 day trip to BC and 6 weeks to get it fixed, all for a few loose wires. tell us a little bit more about the kind of diving you wish to do, i think that would help. I'm assuming that since you are talking the price of helium that you are doing relatively deep/long dives. Certianly saving on expensive gas seems to be one of the things compelling tec OC divers to make the switch. when comparing and contrasting units and aproaches, while i'm not an authority and have not owned multiple units, I think of it like this: There is no perfect rebreather at this point, it is a matter of your specific needs and preferences, furtunately there are some really good options available to you these days. I have observed that Evo/inspo owners tend to love their breathers for the vision electronics, meg owners champion their units for rock solid build quality and modularity, Kiss owners for their units moderate price and simplicity/field servicability, and Optima owners love the ease of use of the extandair cartridges and the all the D+R that diverite has put into their cross-over components. As far as mCCR vs eCCR, it would seem, if the stats reveal a true tendency, that mCCR's are safer. If there is a linear relationship in the stats, in other words if the difference in fatalities does reflect an inherent difference rather than simply reflecting that eCCR divers tend to be folks who push the envelope more, then perhaps it lies in the fact that an mCCR diver not only watches their PO2 frequently but actually has to be intimately engaged in the O2 controlling system, not just looking and monitoring but actually thinking and adjusting it acordingly. It has been argued that this level of engagment requires that the mCCR diver be on top of things constantly, never relying entirely on their system to keep them alive. While many would argue that this is still inconclusive, the numbers are compelling... 0% fatality rate on the KISS. if you wish to go with an mCCR, then you would certainly look at the kiss, except recently the Copis meg has come out, combining the mCCR aproach of the kiss with, hands down, superior build quality. If I were to go the mCCR route, the copis meg is certainly the direction i'd go. As much as i can see the wisdom in going mCCR, i really enjoy having integrated deco, auto injection o2 and the temp stick of the vision electronics. I am contantly reminding myself that even though it's automatic, or perhaps especially so, i need to act like it could malfunction at any time. perhaps eroniously, i have decided that since i'm not pushing the enevolope with depth or overhead environments the risk associated with eCCR feels more manageable. to mitigate the added risk of eCCR's and their tendency to breed complacency, many divers choose to place their computers to a low set point and maintain a normal running set point manually with the thought that this engages the user like an mCCR. I understand the thinking here but am not sure if that effects the stats though. Over time, I may adopt this habit if the numbers continue to bear out accordingly. good luck in your decition, take your time and read up on all the back posts and if possible, get to know people in your area who own a rebreather. __________________ Gill Envy ...Because I wasn't born with gills! ><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>
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10th September 2006, 23:31	#5 (permalink)
*EBT* Apprentice Luddite Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: UK, Brighton Posts: 1,826	Re: mCCR or eCCR Quote: (Originally Posted by Gillenvy) As far as mCCR vs eCCR, it would seem, if the stats reveal a true tendency, that mCCR's are safer. If there is a linear relationship in the stats, in other words if the difference in fatalities does reflect an inherent difference rather than simply reflecting that eCCR divers tend to be folks who push the envelope more, then perhaps it lies in the fact that an mCCR diver not only watches their PO2 frequently but actually has to be intimately engaged in the O2 controlling system, not just looking and monitoring but actually thinking and adjusting it acordingly. It has been argued that this level of engagment requires that the mCCR diver be on top of things constantly, never relying entirely on their system to keep them alive. While many would argue that this is still inconclusive, the numbers are compelling... 0% fatality rate on the KISS. Every unit is different, that much we all agree on. I cant help but think that the KISS's good luck on the incidents record comes down more to the type of people who are selecting the unit. ie its not JUST the choice of unit. Whichever machine you pick, I heard some wise words that have always stuck with me "Rebreathers are expensive, because each and every one comes with its own personal gremlin, ready to bite the second your back is turned". Good luck __________________ Eagles May Soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines! Rebreather World Terms of service Real diving t-shirts for real divers
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11th September 2006, 06:07	#6 (permalink)
Abbo Going down on Meg Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Tokyo Posts: 375	Re: mCCR or eCCR Many thanks for your kind help Last edited by Abbo : 11th September 2006 at 06:39.
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11th September 2006, 08:04	#7 (permalink)
Simon A Escapee from DIY Rebreather's Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Reading, UK Posts: 280	Re: mCCR or eCCR Rebreather dave is correct, optima's and inspirations are ECCR, I had a brain fart when writing the post. Simon A
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11th September 2006, 17:34	#8 (permalink)
Nicholas von Rosen Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Helsingoer, Denmark Posts: 152	Re: mCCR or eCCR Quote: (Originally Posted by Abbo) I've been diving OC since '81, and I love it: it's so forgiving. In a remote location in the Philippines a dive shop charged me 25c/litre for Helium, and I knew then it was time to change - that's $1,000 for a 100m dive. Global supplies of easily recoverable Helium are likely to run out by 2020, and stronger-for-longer oil prices drive freight costs skyward, so the situation is only going to get worse. The first step on the decision tree is to decide: mechanical or electronic. I took a Pelagian course while in Thailand - a mechanical rebreather. I was surprised that the task loading was not really a problem, but I know that when the poop hits the fan IQ drops 50%, and it might be nice to have a computer that says "ahem, are you sure you want to do that?". Computers are inherently unreliable, but add water and they turn from Mogwai to Gremlin. I have a personal aversion to dying. Choice of rebreather is a personal decision, and the best thing would be to try them all. That would take too much time and wad. Have you any advice that would simplify the decision? I'm lazy... I would go for a ECCR any day... Nick __________________ NICK
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11th September 2006, 18:07	#9 (permalink)
*schford* Despotic Overlord Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: London, UK Posts: 3,660	Re: mCCR or eCCR Every eCCR can me an mCCR if you want - mine is - I fly my Meg manually and use the electronics as a safety net. when I hear the solenoid kick in occasionally I always give me self a slap for not paying attention. Stuart __________________ Bailout and Kit Management account for Murphy's Law The only bad question is one you did not ask and later wish you had. Use of Rebreather World is subject to the Rebreather World Terms & Conditions of Use
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11th September 2006, 20:33	#10 (permalink)
Mixaddict Always Learning! Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Other CCR Dolphin Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Dolphin Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Draper, Utah USA Posts: 414	Re: mCCR or eCCR Quote: (Originally Posted by schford) Every eCCR can me an mCCR if you want - mine is - I fly my Meg manually and use the electronics as a safety net. when I hear the solenoid kick in occasionally I always give me self a slap for not paying attention. Stuart Stuart, I do the same thing, and it sure does make me angry when I find that I have not paid attention sufficiently, and the electronics kick in! It is certainly a wake up call when it happens! Regards, Randy __________________ Randy Thornton (MixAddict) Inspiration, Evolution,Hammerhead & Sentinel CCR Instructor
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