General advice

stuey

in the last couple of months I have started looking into buying a Rebreather and have spent many hours on research. Was going to do a Trimix course, and changed my mind and have decided to go down the RB road instead.
However I have not managed to come up with a decision yet as to which one to buy. At the moment ny options are an Evolution, a Kiss or a Meg, the latter being top of the list.
I have no problem travelling to the US to collect a Kiss or a Meg, and the way the exchange rate is at the moment makes it an attractive option.
I know that the Kiss is a maunual unit and the Evo and the Meg are electronic. However my intention would be to upgrade the Kiss eventually which would then bring it into the same price range as the other two.
I just need some advice from you guys out there who are using these units as to the pro's and cons of each. The unit won't be used in the UK as I spend 6 months of the year in Asia, and all my diving is done in that area, it also needs to be easily transportable. ie baggage allowance.
Help me make the decision folks.

wedivebc

Let me say as someone who has dove an inspiration (classic) owned a sport kiss and currently own a meg I know that I made the right choice. I have made 25 trouble free dives without any leaks, electronic issues, or any causes for concern. I am not one who babies his dive gear and it has not let me down. I have not traveled with my meg yet but I intend to. Invluding a trip to Thailand next year. On my last trip to Mexico I carried my sport kiss in a small backpack and put it in overhead luggage, my buddy Ron Micjan carried his meg in a small suitcase and put it in overhead as well. His girlfriend, pattimegdiver did likewise with her minimeg.
The thing to look at when comparing rebreathers is construction. Which unit has double o-rings everywhere, which unit has the ability to recover from a partially flooded loop, Which unit has a cannister capacity suitable for the long deep dives (isn't that why we buy RBs?) we want to do. Which unit has the better work of breathing (WOB)
Yes you can upgrade a KISS but it still won't be a meg. I suggest if that is where you want to go then just get the meg. If initial cost is an issue you might want to look at a COPIS meg. It functions like a similar to a KISS (mCCR) and can be upgraded easily to full funcion meg later. I have logged a few dives on one of those as well and it has all the benefits of the meg (less moisture in loop, great WOB) without the initial cost.
Of course there are as many opinions out there as there are rebreathers but those are my thoughs.

__________________
Cheers,

Dave....

Man is the only animal burdened with the knowledge he will eventually die

JasonF

Hey Stuey!

As of right now, I would suggest considering the KISS and I'll tell you why!

Jetsam Technologies can deliver their product in a reasonable time.

Their customer Service in unmatched in terms of answering questions, spare parts, and service.

ZERO incident rate! What's that tell you about Keeping It Super Simple.

Diver Servicable- KISS Rebreather come as a Kit that YOU get to assemble and they give you an extra o-ring kit for you to service it the following year.

Clean and streamlind Unit.

This list goes on and on and on.

We actually keep IN STOCK AT ALL TIMES Sport Kiss's and Classic Kiss's We can start your training tommorw if any one is interested. The quality of your training will be worth the flight.

For refrences you may contact Jetsam, TDI (Sean Harrison) and any of our KISS students.

If you want more info feel free to contact me.

Cheers

__________________
Jason R. Fisch

Training Director
The SCUBA Connection
Instructor Development and Diver Training Division
jasonf@tscscuba.com

quinnw

Was going to do a Trimix course, and changed my mind and have decided to go down the Rebreather road instead.

- Personally I would pencil in a Trimix course for your CCR. Really makes sense.

I have no problem traveling to the US to collect a Kiss or a Meg, and the way the exchange rate is at the moment makes it an attractive option.

- I’ve just come back from Northern Florida, where I purchased a KISS Classic and completed the training with Wakulla Diving Centre (http://www.wakulladiving.com/). Very very strong personal recommendation. Pre-sales is amazing, incredibly supportive. Knows all the options and can give you some excellent advice. Training was amazing. I felt I got the text book plus some. Gregg worked me hard so I was very comfortable with the unit. I can wax lyrically for the next 3 days (+) about how good Wakulla Diving is and Gregg.
- Unfortunately you are UK / Thailand based as Gregg has several units you could have tried in his pool. Still get in touch!
- Exchange rate is superb at the moment!

I know that the Kiss is a maunual unit and the Evo and the Meg are electronic. However my intention would be to upgrade the Kiss eventually which would then bring it into the same price range as the other two.

- Electronics wise what are you looking for? A HUD or a Setpoint controller? If you are thinking of retrofitting electronics to the KISS do the homework…
- You also now have the Copis Meg as an option.

It also needs to be easily transportable. ie baggage allowance.


- I brought the KISS Classic in hand luggage back to the UK from the US (3 flights as I flew into Bristol airport). Which included a very small aircraft. Just smile at check in and make it look like you only have a book in the bag…
- Unfortunately current security regulations do make it difficult / hard / impossible now… I believe they relaxed them slightly this morning (14th August) to allowing 1 piece of hand luggage. However I believe that they have halved the size allowed.
- If you do attempt to bring it through as hand luggage, always handy to strategically place a magazine or book showing the unit being dived; helps alleviate security’s concerns.

If you want to continue the discussion off line, mail me.

trob09

It tells me that you don't understand statistical analysis.

I have nothing against the KISS - I think it's an excellent unit. But I cringe every time I see a statement like this. The only way to support your inference would be to somehow prove the incidents of all rebreather divers were caused by a design flaw in their respective units - a design flaw that the KISS doesn't have.

There are dozens - if not hundreds - of factors that contribute to accidents. Many of those factors have nothing to to with the unit itself. I could make a convincing argument that it's the mindset of the typical KISS diver that keeps the incident rate at 0.

In the absence of conclusive data, we are just guessing as to why one unit has a higher incident rate than others. Guessing is insufficient base for defining causality.

At a minimum, I would think that we would try to avoid using another diver's misfortune to sell product in this forum.

decoweenie

As much as I support Jetsam, I agree with you 100%.

__________________
"...after a while you get bored offering advice to a bull that like to keep butting the fence with its head rather than walking through the open gate..."

- Rebreather World PM

JasonF

I agree with you on this, the intent was not to use another divers misfortune.

We are seeing more and more rebreather manufactures/builders incorporating/transitioning to the kiss style valve which puts more of the responsibility on the diver to control the setpoint.

I do wonder if Rebreather divers are relying to much on there electronics to control their unit kind of like a cruize control.

I know a few people on Prisims/Optimas/Inspos that have said specifically "One of the reason why I went with an ECCR over a MCCR is that I don't want to be task loaded with executing my dive and maintaining my setpoint"
These are totally the wrong reasons to go with an ECCR. If any divers are that task loaded at depth to the point where they can't maintain there own setpoint, than what kind of performance can we expect from them when an emergency arises?

If we apply the 80/20 rule to why divers went with an ECCR over a MCCR, you would see that 80% wanted the assist of the computer to control setpoint, where as 20% wanted complete control with manual CCR.

We are starting to see a change for the better on how to use the ECCR as a failure mode only, at all other times they should be running it manually.

All in all I don't care what rebreathers people are diving so long as the instruction that they are getting is current and up to date. And most importantly, that the DIVER does not get complacent

__________________
Jason R. Fisch

Training Director
The SCUBA Connection
Instructor Development and Diver Training Division
jasonf@tscscuba.com

trob09

Thanks for the comments and clarification.

Unfortunately, I'm still seeing broad generalizations attributed to unit selection based on anecdote. While I am sure that manual vs. automatic control has factored into the decision process, I am equally sure that other factors have been considered as well. Things like location of counterlungs, depth capability, recommendation from friends/mentors, etc. I am not convinced that the pareto principle explains unit selection to the degree that you suggest.

Nonetheless, we _do_ agree that education and complacency-avoidance are keys to successful rebreather diving. I would add skills practice to that list, but I've hijacked this thread enough.

T