Diverite

JonnyB · 1st July 2006, 17:33

Quote: (Originally Posted by n2diving)

The argument that granular sorb is more 'available' in remote or other undefined locations is a bit strange. I sell both and ship both all over the world.... I've been asking a few questions when someone calls and buys sorb to try and get a better handle on this.... my conclusion is the statement that granular sorb is more widely available therefore a better choice for an expedition quality rebreather just doesn't make much sense.

The reality is that divers genuinely travelling to remote destinations never hop on the plane expecting to walk unannounced into a dive shop at the destination and say "Two kegs of 8-12 please". They always work out their logistics by arranging to ship sorb ahead or even taking it with them.

In fact, in the more remote destinations... the cost of the sorb is a minor concern! It's the damn freight costs that are driving the price. I've shipped sorb to places where the shipping fees cost as much at the sorb. And I've done many many firedrills where sorb was not available, expired, etc and the freight costs to express it to the divers were way more than the cost of the sorb. In these circumstances, the cartridges would have the cost advantage because they weight less.

I also see a lot of comparisons to real world use of granular sorb vs 'manufacturer' recommendations for cartridges. Are some individuals getting double and triple the manfacturer recommended 3 hour max for the cartidges? Yes. Do they admit it publicly? No. Do they store their partially used cartridges for up to a month and then finish using them? Yes. Do they admit it publicly? No. But these same issues are true of sorb. Exceeding manufacturer recommends is a personal choice that each diver makes for themselves.... but it's not fair to compare apples and oranges.

Where i live there is not any reseller of EAC to my knowledge, so lets say that i would want to dive a O2ptima, and i would buy the EAC from you, as it would be used on my home area i would need lots of it, so how much would it approx. cost me to get EAC equivalent of a keg and equivalent of a palett. By equivalent i mean usage and timewise.

The shipping would be to Europe.

/Jonny

Drmike · 1st July 2006, 18:25

Quote: (Originally Posted by n2diving)

In fact, in the more remote destinations... the cost of the sorb is a minor concern! It's the damn freight costs that are driving the price.

which is exactly why granular is better because you have a higher chance of getting some in or near the same country and not have to ship it from overseas. You also have many many more suppliers (and makes) and dealers both locally and internationaly to get the stuff from.

Most of my diving is expedition diving in remote locations I dont believe cartridges are the answer (unless the number of dealers internationaly and locally equals that for granular sorb)

***caveseeker7*** · 1st July 2006, 19:30

Quote: (Originally Posted by E-man)

Yay for your PRISM its oh so great...so how do you like diving it?

Pretty smart ass remark, and I don't want to get into a pissing contest here.

There is no my PRISM as so far I couldn't afford one.

Seeing that the prices are fairly close the same is the case with the Optima, AP units or Megalodon, with the MK15.5 and Ouroboros even further out of reach.

The PRISM that I have been diving is the second unit of a friend, and I really like it. Very simple and transparent in its operation. All the basics are done right, no batteries and solenoid in the loop. Very efficient scrubber, very good WOB (best of the four CCRs I tried). Ability to drain water from both bags. Neutral DSV (though I still prefer a BOV). Fairly easy to maintain. The low weight works well for travel, as well as moving the unit about. It does without many of the wizbang features of other eCCRs, but then it also does without rusting handsets, constant software fixes etc. I'm amazed that the need for "tweaking" the electronics on a life support system is just taken as fact barely raising an eyebrow. Flattening the threads of the battery cap? In my opinion ridiculous. If they need to be flattened they should come like that. Same for the contact enhancing gel. Been using various dive computers for years, can't remember ever having to rework the opening for the depth sensor or having to fill it up with gooey stuff. Nor do I remember even one of the many PRISM divers I know or SMI telling me they or I had to. That's why I believe simplicity goes a long way, and why I prefer it for myself. Your HH has some neat features, but they seem to come at the cost of simplicity and reliability.

Anyway, I do have my Sport Kiss and enjoy diving it very much. Again, it's a very simple unit which has always appealed to me. Couldn't be easier to maintain, for a granular based scrubber it couldn't be easier and quicker to fill. WOB is pretty good for backmounted CLs, certainly good enough for me, though not as low as on o-t-s bags. So far no failure, no problems, just plenty of fun.

Quote: (Originally Posted by E-man)

A few reasons I chose EAC not kitty poop catcher.
2) Not packing scrubber...I dont like wasting 15 mins of time when I could be sleeping on the boat

With the size and comfort of most bunks I rather pack scrubbers ...

No doubt the convinience of the EAC is great. As is the lowered risk of caustic cocktails you mentioned.

Quote:

4) Lower WOB...equals less work for you and your body = less co2 production

If FMDR ever publishes the WOB numbers we'll know how good the unit is.

Quote:

7) Easy to swap out a half used cartridge for a 'deep' or 'longer' dive and swap back to the half used cartridge for a not so long or deep dive...can't do that with the cat poop catching stuff, for me that makes for a longer duration total (depending on your dives)

Sure you can, on any unit that has a scrubber insert for the cannister, may that be Sport Kiss, PRISM, Meg, MK or Boris.

Quote:

8) They just look neat and seem more technologically advanced than the kitty litter...isnt that why we all have rebreathers anyway? So we can be the guy with the 'coolest' toys?

Same absorbant, differently implemented.

Not really new absorbing technology.
And 'cool' is in the eye of the beholder. I consider the MK, Boris, PRISM and Cis cans 'cooler'. Duration, efficiency, hydrophobic membranes, all 'cool'.

Quote:

Reasons for the Optwoima
1) Price

I thought Optima divers were beyond that ...

With optional items like harness, tanks, sensors, batteries etc. not much difference to the bulk of eCCRs ... without them you can't dive it.

Quote:

3) I can put it together in 45 mins from it being in bits and peices (including gas fills and absorbent fill)

So you save about 10 - 15 mins over me setting up the PRISM, and loose about as much when I set up the Sport Kiss. About even.

Quote:

4) Packs up nicely in a suitcase (few hard bits, unlike a huge yellow hard cover)

So does the PRISM, and even the Boris gets transported that way. Meg and Sport Kiss pack much smaller, the latter into a backpack if need be.

Quote:

5) Test data that shows different situations...gives me a better picture of what to expect

I spend hours looking over test data on the PRISM.
CE units fall withing the tested requirements (or exceptions).
Some units sadly lack available test data, including the Jetsams and Megs.

Quote:

7) Its a pretty light unit with plenty of extra gas

Shipping weight of my ss SK was 28 lbs, with alu box you save a few. You can make it as light or heavy as you want to. With ss bp/w and 3 ltr tanks 62.5 lbs ready to dive. PRISM weights 47 lbs with full 3 ltr tanks and scrubber. By the time I add the lead needed with my drysuit there's about a 10 lbs difference. All the ss on my SK saves some lead. In regards to tanks any unit with external ones offers more options.

Quote:

8) DiveRite

And Micropore. And Juergensen Marine. And Farallon.

For me Jetsam was one hell of a good argument.
Steam Machines too, but then I know them well and trust their word.

All this can be (and has been

) endlessly debated. Different units excell at different dives. There is no 'one design fits all', and there probably won't be. You seem to be very happy with your Optima, that's all that counts.

I wouldn't be. Moving to Germany, with 31% customs and tax duty, takes the EAC equiped rebreathers off the list in and by itself. Simple as that. Add shipping expenses. Granular media is easily available from Dräger (at the LDS), as is Sofnolime. Receycling is much more an issue, and your cartridge's plastic grid doesn't hold up well in that respect. And as mentioned, I find the 'tweaking' need unacceptable.

So far I'm very happy with the Sport Kiss. And to me that's all that counts.

***caveseeker7*** · 1st July 2006, 19:43

Quote: (Originally Posted by n2diving)

The argument that granular sorb is more 'available' in remote or other undefined locations is a bit strange. I sell both and ship both all over the world....

If we were only talking remote locations, it would be one thing. But we're not.
How many stocking dealers are in the UK? Does the LDS in Scotland have them in stock for divers heading to Scapa Flow?? As Jonny asked, Malta? Other Meditarrean Islands? Pretty major dive location. The south of France? The Red Sea? Maledives?
And just as important, which LDS in the Rhein Main area?

When it comes to the EAC, everything but North America is remote.

JonnyB · 1st July 2006, 20:00

Quote: (Originally Posted by caveseeker7)

The PRISM that I have been diving is the second unit of a friend, and I really like it. Very simple and transparent in its operation. All the basics are done right, no batteries and solenoid in the loop.

Hey Stefan, this sounds very interesting, could you please try to find pictures of the solenoid.
I would love to get this explained more in details. I thought i know most about the Prism... I had no idea about the solenoidn not being in the loop.

/Jonny

E-man · 1st July 2006, 20:55

Quote: (Originally Posted by caveseeker7)

Pretty smart ass remark, and I don't want to get into a pissing contest here.

Im always here for a smart ass remark

Quote: (Originally Posted by caveseeker7)

There is no my PRISM as so far I couldn't afford one.

Seeing that the prices are fairly close the same is the case with the Optima, AP units or Megalodon, with the MK15.5 and Ouroboros even further out of reach.

Point of my comment is the PRISM seems nice, fine and dandy...if you can get one and you can get a replacement part for anything broken on one

...Putting it quite out of reach

Quote: (Originally Posted by caveseeker7)

The PRISM that I have been diving is the second unit of a friend, and I really like it. Very simple and transparent in its operation. All the basics are done right, no batteries and solenoid in the loop. Very efficient scrubber, very good WOB (best of the four CCRs I tried). Ability to drain water from both bags. Neutral DSV (though I still prefer a BOV). Fairly easy to maintain. The low weight works well for travel, as well as moving the unit about. It does without many of the wizbang features of other eCCRs, but then it also does without rusting handsets, constant software fixes etc. I'm amazed that the need for "tweaking" the electronics on a life support system is just taken as fact barely raising an eyebrow. Flattening the threads of the battery cap? In my opinion ridiculous. If they need to be flattened they should come like that. Same for the contact enhancing gel. Been using various dive computers for years, can't remember ever having to rework the opening for the depth sensor or having to fill it up with gooey stuff. Nor do I remember even one of the many PRISM divers I know or SMI telling me they or I had to. That's why I believe simplicity goes a long way, and why I prefer it for myself. Your HH has some neat features, but they seem to come at the cost of simplicity and reliability.

I agree with you for everything on the PRISM (except the WOB i have no experience).
I like the flexability of eCCR and the HH the ability to change settings underwater, though you do loose some simplicity, I can deal.

On packing scrubbers...

Quote: (Originally Posted by caveseeker7)

With the size and comfort of most bunks I rather pack scrubbers ...

I'll take sleep over most activities....

Quote: (Originally Posted by caveseeker7)

No doubt the convinience of the EAC is great. As is the lowered risk of caustic cocktails you mentioned.

If FMDR ever publishes the WOB numbers we'll know how good the unit is.

Im assuming FMDR = Farralon, Micropore, DiveRite?
Yes, we'll know then but short breathing loop + OTS lungs + EAC = low WOB to me

On swapping scrubbers...

Quote: (Originally Posted by caveseeker7)

Sure you can, on any unit that has a scrubber insert for the cannister, may that be Sport Kiss, PRISM, Meg, MK or Boris.

No you can't...without buying additional scrubber baskets...You can't just take your absorbent pop it out pop in a fresh charge then pop back in the parially used...

On EAC being 'cool'....

Quote: (Originally Posted by caveseeker7)

Same absorbant, differently implemented.

Not really new absorbing technology.

True

Quote: (Originally Posted by caveseeker7)

And 'cool' is in the eye of the beholder. I consider the MK, Boris, PRISM and Cis cans 'cooler'. Duration, efficiency, hydrophobic membranes, all 'cool'.

True, I consider a fairly hydrophobic absorbent that doesnt have much need for a hydrophobic membrane, cool...Although the Boris can is cool too

On traveling...

Quote: (Originally Posted by caveseeker7)

So does the PRISM, and even the Boris gets transported that way. Meg and Sport Kiss pack much smaller, the latter into a backpack if need be.

Agreed, except back to can't get a PRISM, Boris and Meg expensiver and Sport Kiss...well I like my eCCR

Quote: (Originally Posted by caveseeker7)

CE units fall withing the tested requirements (or exceptions).
Some units sadly lack available test data, including the Jetsams and Megs.

Agreed...Although there is no CE duration 'requirement'

Quote: (Originally Posted by caveseeker7)

For me Jetsam was one hell of a good argument.
Steam Machines too, but then I know them well and trust their word.

All this can be (and has been

) endlessly debated. Different units excell at different dives. There is no 'one design fits all', and there probably won't be. You seem to be very happy with your Optima, that's all that counts.

Hence why I only mentioned why I made my choices, not saying this unit is better than this unit yada yada....Also most of listing was why I choose the EAC over kitty litter, as I dive the EAC in the Inspiration as well.

Quote: (Originally Posted by caveseeker7)

So far I'm very happy with the Sport Kiss. And to me that's all that counts.

Granted if the owner is happy thats all that counts...as was my post telling what I like and why I'm happy with it

As I said I was only listing my reasonings I'm sure everyone will have their own and their own opinions.

Good diving

***caveseeker7*** · 1st July 2006, 23:09

Quote: (Originally Posted by JonnyB)

Hey Stefan, this sounds very interesting, could you please try to find pictures of the solenoid.
I would love to get this explained more in details. I thought i know most about the Prism... I had no idea about the solenoidn not being in the loop.

Never has been. As SMI tried to sell to the military market the solenoid had to be outside the loop. Same on MK series, Shadow Packs etc. Didn't you read my article?

Here one of the pics from it.

Here from another angle, a picture by Robert who owns the rigs.

***caveseeker7*** · 1st July 2006, 23:30

Quote: (Originally Posted by E-man)

Im always here for a smart ass remark

The only reason we let you join in the first place.

Quote:

... if you can get one and you can get a replacement part for anything broken on one

They're catching up with orders pretty well, and the only spare hard to come by that I'm aware of are secondaries. They finally started stocking most every other part.

Quote:

I'll take sleep over most activities....

So do I if I can be comfortable to start out with.

Quote:

No you can't...without buying additional scrubber baskets ...

But you can buy additional baskets if you choose to.

Quote:

True, I consider a fairly hydrophobic absorbent that doesnt have much need for a hydrophobic membrane, cool...Although the Boris can is cool too

You got a point there.

Quote:

Agreed...Although there is no CE duration 'requirement'

No, but a requirement to test and rate accordingly.

Quote:

Good diving

And same to you.

silent running · 2nd July 2006, 02:56

Quote: (Originally Posted by n2diving)

In fact, in the more remote destinations... the cost of the sorb is a minor concern! It's the damn freight costs that are driving the price. I've shipped sorb to places where the shipping fees cost as much at the sorb. And I've done many many firedrills where sorb was not available, expired, etc and the freight costs to express it to the divers were way more than the cost of the sorb. In these circumstances, the cartridges would have the cost advantage because they weight less.

Hello n2diving, I'm not sure I understand your logic. The cost of sorb in remote locations is always a concern, unless you're filthy rich and can afford multiple plans for failed logistics. As you said yourself, the shipping and customs costs are significant, sometimes more than the product itself. This on top of taking about the most expensive trip one can take. Then there is the potential loss-broken, spilled containers, having the stuff sitting in some burning hot shed for weeks before you arrive...and that's if it gets there. Also, I'd bet that it doesn't take much to crush a box of micropores.

That is why few people rely on remote destinations for their supplies. The ones that do, would have to have a very good relationship with the operation-repeat bussiness, spent lots of money with them, lots of overseas phone calls/emails double checking if they got the stuff yet, generally annoying the shit out of some guy who moved to East Jesus to slow down the pace, not to deal with a nervous control freak CCR diver... I've only found 1 remote dive center that volutarily offered to sell me 8-12. They have trouble getting it themselves. And if you have to twist their arms, then you can bet there is already less of a chance they will be able to come through.

You can bring enough sorb with you for almost any length dive trip in your luggage and it costs you no more than the sorb itself, at least on flights from the US. You cannot fit enough cartridges in your luggage even for a week without excess charges. You'd probably need a 3rd suitcase. You've heard of dimentional weight, right? The airlines and freight companies have size and weight restrictions. A keg of sorb is very compact, far more than 12 micropores, that is the main reason it is not an alternative to granular sorb for remote locations. Don't get me wrong, I love the idea of the cartridge, but only if they can get the same duration as a good 8-12 radial and then figure out way to make it foldable. -Andy

silent running · 2nd July 2006, 03:04

Quote: (Originally Posted by caveseeker7)

Pretty smart ass remark, and I don't want to get into a pissing contest here...

Hi Stefan, nice to see you are still in solid posession of your faculties after the accident.... He he he.

1st July 2006, 17:33	#71 (permalink)
JonnyB Johnny The Hatch Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Titan Other CCR Other SCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Inspiration Classic Megalodon Sport Kiss Classic Kiss Other CCR Other SCR Home Build Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Sweden (Stockholm)/Cyprus(Ayia Napa) Posts: 961	Re: Diverite Quote: (Originally Posted by n2diving) The argument that granular sorb is more 'available' in remote or other undefined locations is a bit strange. I sell both and ship both all over the world.... I've been asking a few questions when someone calls and buys sorb to try and get a better handle on this.... my conclusion is the statement that granular sorb is more widely available therefore a better choice for an expedition quality rebreather just doesn't make much sense. The reality is that divers genuinely travelling to remote destinations never hop on the plane expecting to walk unannounced into a dive shop at the destination and say "Two kegs of 8-12 please". They always work out their logistics by arranging to ship sorb ahead or even taking it with them. In fact, in the more remote destinations... the cost of the sorb is a minor concern! It's the damn freight costs that are driving the price. I've shipped sorb to places where the shipping fees cost as much at the sorb. And I've done many many firedrills where sorb was not available, expired, etc and the freight costs to express it to the divers were way more than the cost of the sorb. In these circumstances, the cartridges would have the cost advantage because they weight less. I also see a lot of comparisons to real world use of granular sorb vs 'manufacturer' recommendations for cartridges. Are some individuals getting double and triple the manfacturer recommended 3 hour max for the cartidges? Yes. Do they admit it publicly? No. Do they store their partially used cartridges for up to a month and then finish using them? Yes. Do they admit it publicly? No. But these same issues are true of sorb. Exceeding manufacturer recommends is a personal choice that each diver makes for themselves.... but it's not fair to compare apples and oranges. Where i live there is not any reseller of EAC to my knowledge, so lets say that i would want to dive a O2ptima, and i would buy the EAC from you, as it would be used on my home area i would need lots of it, so how much would it approx. cost me to get EAC equivalent of a keg and equivalent of a palett. By equivalent i mean usage and timewise. The shipping would be to Europe. /Jonny __________________ A quote from Crazyduck - In remembering our own Rob Davies. "Outbound flight 777 heavy you are cleared for flight Due west into that warm red Texas sunset You have angels on your wings and divers memories on your six." Rest In Peace http://www.divetekcyprus.com http://www.diveccr.com
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1st July 2006, 18:25	#72 (permalink)
Drmike Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Ouroboros Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,157	Re: Diverite Quote: (Originally Posted by n2diving) In fact, in the more remote destinations... the cost of the sorb is a minor concern! It's the damn freight costs that are driving the price. which is exactly why granular is better because you have a higher chance of getting some in or near the same country and not have to ship it from overseas. You also have many many more suppliers (and makes) and dealers both locally and internationaly to get the stuff from. Most of my diving is expedition diving in remote locations I dont believe cartridges are the answer (unless the number of dealers internationaly and locally equals that for granular sorb) __________________ Cave diving is a sport Wreck diving is a sport Diving in general is a sport 'Rebreather diving' is not a sport its the delusional obsession with a highly dangerous and often inappropriate piece of equipment Last edited by Drmike : 1st July 2006 at 18:28.
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1st July 2006, 19:30	#73 (permalink)
*caveseeker7* Who loves ya, baby Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Too far from Neverland Posts: 5,435	Re: Diverite Quote: (Originally Posted by E-man) Yay for your PRISM its oh so great...so how do you like diving it? Pretty smart ass remark, and I don't want to get into a pissing contest here. There is no my PRISM as so far I couldn't afford one. Seeing that the prices are fairly close the same is the case with the Optima, AP units or Megalodon, with the MK15.5 and Ouroboros even further out of reach. The PRISM that I have been diving is the second unit of a friend, and I really like it. Very simple and transparent in its operation. All the basics are done right, no batteries and solenoid in the loop. Very efficient scrubber, very good WOB (best of the four CCRs I tried). Ability to drain water from both bags. Neutral DSV (though I still prefer a BOV). Fairly easy to maintain. The low weight works well for travel, as well as moving the unit about. It does without many of the wizbang features of other eCCRs, but then it also does without rusting handsets, constant software fixes etc. I'm amazed that the need for "tweaking" the electronics on a life support system is just taken as fact barely raising an eyebrow. Flattening the threads of the battery cap? In my opinion ridiculous. If they need to be flattened they should come like that. Same for the contact enhancing gel. Been using various dive computers for years, can't remember ever having to rework the opening for the depth sensor or having to fill it up with gooey stuff. Nor do I remember even one of the many PRISM divers I know or SMI telling me they or I had to. That's why I believe simplicity goes a long way, and why I prefer it for myself. Your HH has some neat features, but they seem to come at the cost of simplicity and reliability. Anyway, I do have my Sport Kiss and enjoy diving it very much. Again, it's a very simple unit which has always appealed to me. Couldn't be easier to maintain, for a granular based scrubber it couldn't be easier and quicker to fill. WOB is pretty good for backmounted CLs, certainly good enough for me, though not as low as on o-t-s bags. So far no failure, no problems, just plenty of fun. Quote: (Originally Posted by E-man) A few reasons I chose EAC not kitty poop catcher. 2) Not packing scrubber...I dont like wasting 15 mins of time when I could be sleeping on the boat With the size and comfort of most bunks I rather pack scrubbers ... No doubt the convinience of the EAC is great. As is the lowered risk of caustic cocktails you mentioned. Quote: 4) Lower WOB...equals less work for you and your body = less co2 production If FMDR ever publishes the WOB numbers we'll know how good the unit is. Quote: 7) Easy to swap out a half used cartridge for a 'deep' or 'longer' dive and swap back to the half used cartridge for a not so long or deep dive...can't do that with the cat poop catching stuff, for me that makes for a longer duration total (depending on your dives) Sure you can, on any unit that has a scrubber insert for the cannister, may that be Sport Kiss, PRISM, Meg, MK or Boris. Quote: 8) They just look neat and seem more technologically advanced than the kitty litter...isnt that why we all have rebreathers anyway? So we can be the guy with the 'coolest' toys? Same absorbant, differently implemented. Not really new absorbing technology. And 'cool' is in the eye of the beholder. I consider the MK, Boris, PRISM and Cis cans 'cooler'. Duration, efficiency, hydrophobic membranes, all 'cool'. Quote: Reasons for the Optwoima 1) Price I thought Optima divers were beyond that ... With optional items like harness, tanks, sensors, batteries etc. not much difference to the bulk of eCCRs ... without them you can't dive it. Quote: 3) I can put it together in 45 mins from it being in bits and peices (including gas fills and absorbent fill) So you save about 10 - 15 mins over me setting up the PRISM, and loose about as much when I set up the Sport Kiss. About even. Quote: 4) Packs up nicely in a suitcase (few hard bits, unlike a huge yellow hard cover) So does the PRISM, and even the Boris gets transported that way. Meg and Sport Kiss pack much smaller, the latter into a backpack if need be. Quote: 5) Test data that shows different situations...gives me a better picture of what to expect I spend hours looking over test data on the PRISM. CE units fall withing the tested requirements (or exceptions). Some units sadly lack available test data, including the Jetsams and Megs. Quote: 7) Its a pretty light unit with plenty of extra gas Shipping weight of my ss SK was 28 lbs, with alu box you save a few. You can make it as light or heavy as you want to. With ss bp/w and 3 ltr tanks 62.5 lbs ready to dive. PRISM weights 47 lbs with full 3 ltr tanks and scrubber. By the time I add the lead needed with my drysuit there's about a 10 lbs difference. All the ss on my SK saves some lead. In regards to tanks any unit with external ones offers more options. Quote: 8) DiveRite And Micropore. And Juergensen Marine. And Farallon. For me Jetsam was one hell of a good argument. Steam Machines too, but then I know them well and trust their word. All this can be (and has been ) endlessly debated. Different units excell at different dives. There is no 'one design fits all', and there probably won't be. You seem to be very happy with your Optima, that's all that counts. I wouldn't be. Moving to Germany, with 31% customs and tax duty, takes the EAC equiped rebreathers off the list in and by itself. Simple as that. Add shipping expenses. Granular media is easily available from Dräger (at the LDS), as is Sofnolime. Receycling is much more an issue, and your cartridge's plastic grid doesn't hold up well in that respect. And as mentioned, I find the 'tweaking' need unacceptable. So far I'm very happy with the Sport Kiss. And to me that's all that counts. __________________ Cheers Stefan "Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.'!" Last edited by caveseeker7 : 1st July 2006 at 19:52.
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1st July 2006, 19:43	#74 (permalink)
*caveseeker7* Who loves ya, baby Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Too far from Neverland Posts: 5,435	Re: Diverite Quote: (Originally Posted by n2diving) The argument that granular sorb is more 'available' in remote or other undefined locations is a bit strange. I sell both and ship both all over the world.... If we were only talking remote locations, it would be one thing. But we're not. How many stocking dealers are in the UK? Does the LDS in Scotland have them in stock for divers heading to Scapa Flow?? As Jonny asked, Malta? Other Meditarrean Islands? Pretty major dive location. The south of France? The Red Sea? Maledives? And just as important, which LDS in the Rhein Main area? When it comes to the EAC, everything but North America is remote. __________________ Cheers Stefan "Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.'!"
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1st July 2006, 20:00	#75 (permalink)
JonnyB Johnny The Hatch Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Titan Other CCR Other SCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Inspiration Classic Megalodon Sport Kiss Classic Kiss Other CCR Other SCR Home Build Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Sweden (Stockholm)/Cyprus(Ayia Napa) Posts: 961	Re: Diverite Quote: (Originally Posted by caveseeker7) The PRISM that I have been diving is the second unit of a friend, and I really like it. Very simple and transparent in its operation. All the basics are done right, no batteries and solenoid in the loop. Hey Stefan, this sounds very interesting, could you please try to find pictures of the solenoid. I would love to get this explained more in details. I thought i know most about the Prism... I had no idea about the solenoidn not being in the loop. /Jonny __________________ A quote from Crazyduck - In remembering our own Rob Davies. "Outbound flight 777 heavy you are cleared for flight Due west into that warm red Texas sunset You have angels on your wings and divers memories on your six." Rest In Peace http://www.divetekcyprus.com http://www.diveccr.com
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1st July 2006, 20:55	#76 (permalink)
E-man On the loop! Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Optima Other Rebreather/s: Titan Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Eastern Coast ;) Posts: 212	Re: Diverite Quote: (Originally Posted by caveseeker7) Pretty smart ass remark, and I don't want to get into a pissing contest here. Im always here for a smart ass remark Quote: (Originally Posted by caveseeker7) There is no my PRISM as so far I couldn't afford one. Seeing that the prices are fairly close the same is the case with the Optima, AP units or Megalodon, with the MK15.5 and Ouroboros even further out of reach. Point of my comment is the PRISM seems nice, fine and dandy...if you can get one and you can get a replacement part for anything broken on one...Putting it quite out of reach Quote: (Originally Posted by caveseeker7) The PRISM that I have been diving is the second unit of a friend, and I really like it. Very simple and transparent in its operation. All the basics are done right, no batteries and solenoid in the loop. Very efficient scrubber, very good WOB (best of the four CCRs I tried). Ability to drain water from both bags. Neutral DSV (though I still prefer a BOV). Fairly easy to maintain. The low weight works well for travel, as well as moving the unit about. It does without many of the wizbang features of other eCCRs, but then it also does without rusting handsets, constant software fixes etc. I'm amazed that the need for "tweaking" the electronics on a life support system is just taken as fact barely raising an eyebrow. Flattening the threads of the battery cap? In my opinion ridiculous. If they need to be flattened they should come like that. Same for the contact enhancing gel. Been using various dive computers for years, can't remember ever having to rework the opening for the depth sensor or having to fill it up with gooey stuff. Nor do I remember even one of the many PRISM divers I know or SMI telling me they or I had to. That's why I believe simplicity goes a long way, and why I prefer it for myself. Your HH has some neat features, but they seem to come at the cost of simplicity and reliability. I agree with you for everything on the PRISM (except the WOB i have no experience). I like the flexability of eCCR and the HH the ability to change settings underwater, though you do loose some simplicity, I can deal. On packing scrubbers... Quote: (Originally Posted by caveseeker7) With the size and comfort of most bunks I rather pack scrubbers ... I'll take sleep over most activities.... Quote: (Originally Posted by caveseeker7) No doubt the convinience of the EAC is great. As is the lowered risk of caustic cocktails you mentioned. If FMDR ever publishes the WOB numbers we'll know how good the unit is. Im assuming FMDR = Farralon, Micropore, DiveRite? Yes, we'll know then but short breathing loop + OTS lungs + EAC = low WOB to me On swapping scrubbers... Quote: (Originally Posted by caveseeker7) Sure you can, on any unit that has a scrubber insert for the cannister, may that be Sport Kiss, PRISM, Meg, MK or Boris. No you can't...without buying additional scrubber baskets...You can't just take your absorbent pop it out pop in a fresh charge then pop back in the parially used... On EAC being 'cool'.... Quote: (Originally Posted by caveseeker7) Same absorbant, differently implemented. Not really new absorbing technology. True Quote: (Originally Posted by caveseeker7) And 'cool' is in the eye of the beholder. I consider the MK, Boris, PRISM and Cis cans 'cooler'. Duration, efficiency, hydrophobic membranes, all 'cool'. True, I consider a fairly hydrophobic absorbent that doesnt have much need for a hydrophobic membrane, cool...Although the Boris can is cool too On traveling... Quote: (Originally Posted by caveseeker7) So does the PRISM, and even the Boris gets transported that way. Meg and Sport Kiss pack much smaller, the latter into a backpack if need be. Agreed, except back to can't get a PRISM, Boris and Meg expensiver and Sport Kiss...well I like my eCCR Quote: (Originally Posted by caveseeker7) CE units fall withing the tested requirements (or exceptions). Some units sadly lack available test data, including the Jetsams and Megs. Agreed...Although there is no CE duration 'requirement' Quote: (Originally Posted by caveseeker7) For me Jetsam was one hell of a good argument. Steam Machines too, but then I know them well and trust their word. All this can be (and has been ) endlessly debated. Different units excell at different dives. There is no 'one design fits all', and there probably won't be. You seem to be very happy with your Optima, that's all that counts. Hence why I only mentioned why I made my choices, not saying this unit is better than this unit yada yada....Also most of listing was why I choose the EAC over kitty litter, as I dive the EAC in the Inspiration as well. Quote: (Originally Posted by caveseeker7) So far I'm very happy with the Sport Kiss. And to me that's all that counts. Granted if the owner is happy thats all that counts...as was my post telling what I like and why I'm happy with it As I said I was only listing my reasonings I'm sure everyone will have their own and their own opinions. Good diving
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1st July 2006, 23:30	#78 (permalink)
*caveseeker7* Who loves ya, baby Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Too far from Neverland Posts: 5,435	Re: Diverite Quote: (Originally Posted by E-man) Im always here for a smart ass remark The only reason we let you join in the first place. Quote: ... if you can get one and you can get a replacement part for anything broken on one They're catching up with orders pretty well, and the only spare hard to come by that I'm aware of are secondaries. They finally started stocking most every other part. Quote: I'll take sleep over most activities.... So do I if I can be comfortable to start out with. Quote: No you can't...without buying additional scrubber baskets ... But you can buy additional baskets if you choose to. Quote: True, I consider a fairly hydrophobic absorbent that doesnt have much need for a hydrophobic membrane, cool...Although the Boris can is cool too You got a point there. Quote: Agreed...Although there is no CE duration 'requirement' No, but a requirement to test and rate accordingly. Quote: Good diving And same to you. __________________ Cheers Stefan "Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.'!"
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2nd July 2006, 02:56	#79 (permalink)
silent running Mature mouth breather Current Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: U.S.A. Brooklyn, New York Posts: 1,813	Re: Diverite Quote: (Originally Posted by n2diving) In fact, in the more remote destinations... the cost of the sorb is a minor concern! It's the damn freight costs that are driving the price. I've shipped sorb to places where the shipping fees cost as much at the sorb. And I've done many many firedrills where sorb was not available, expired, etc and the freight costs to express it to the divers were way more than the cost of the sorb. In these circumstances, the cartridges would have the cost advantage because they weight less. Hello n2diving, I'm not sure I understand your logic. The cost of sorb in remote locations is always a concern, unless you're filthy rich and can afford multiple plans for failed logistics. As you said yourself, the shipping and customs costs are significant, sometimes more than the product itself. This on top of taking about the most expensive trip one can take. Then there is the potential loss-broken, spilled containers, having the stuff sitting in some burning hot shed for weeks before you arrive...and that's if it gets there. Also, I'd bet that it doesn't take much to crush a box of micropores. That is why few people rely on remote destinations for their supplies. The ones that do, would have to have a very good relationship with the operation-repeat bussiness, spent lots of money with them, lots of overseas phone calls/emails double checking if they got the stuff yet, generally annoying the shit out of some guy who moved to East Jesus to slow down the pace, not to deal with a nervous control freak CCR diver... I've only found 1 remote dive center that volutarily offered to sell me 8-12. They have trouble getting it themselves. And if you have to twist their arms, then you can bet there is already less of a chance they will be able to come through. You can bring enough sorb with you for almost any length dive trip in your luggage and it costs you no more than the sorb itself, at least on flights from the US. You cannot fit enough cartridges in your luggage even for a week without excess charges. You'd probably need a 3rd suitcase. You've heard of dimentional weight, right? The airlines and freight companies have size and weight restrictions. A keg of sorb is very compact, far more than 12 micropores, that is the main reason it is not an alternative to granular sorb for remote locations. Don't get me wrong, I love the idea of the cartridge, but only if they can get the same duration as a good 8-12 radial and then figure out way to make it foldable. -Andy
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2nd July 2006, 03:04	#80 (permalink)
silent running Mature mouth breather Current Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: U.S.A. Brooklyn, New York Posts: 1,813	Re: Diverite Quote: (Originally Posted by caveseeker7) Pretty smart ass remark, and I don't want to get into a pissing contest here... Hi Stefan, nice to see you are still in solid posession of your faculties after the accident.... He he he.
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