Diverite

**JPJones** · 30th June 2006, 12:05

Quote: (Originally Posted by JonnyB)

On that $30 cartridge, how many hours do they get out of it...
Cause if it is $20 a fill for lime and $30 for a micropore, then we are already 50% more expensive and lets say they get only 2 hours out if it that is 30%less time out of it, and lets say you do 100hours a year, then the cost could be $1500 for the micropore and 666

for the lime... And i buy mine in such a quantity, usually a pallet at a time, so i pay even less for mine, so i would guess that i end up at around $400-500 a year for it!

/Jonny

So your talking about the cost of 2 good trimix dives on OC and sorb is going up and the cartridge will go down. So whats the big deal I blow that much taking friends out to eat in one night. The point I'm trying to make is the cost difference is small and should not be a hangup. There are good and bad points with all the units out now.

One of my problems with the Meg which is a good unit is that it's built by a small operation dominated by one person and only does one thing and like the Cis might very well not be around in a few years. Having a CCR that the owner of the company decided to do something else or ran out of money bothers me a lot more. Now by its self that still would not stop me from buying one though.

JonnyB · 30th June 2006, 12:14

Quote: (Originally Posted by JPJones)

So your talking about the cost of 2 good trimix dives on OC and sorb is going up and the cartridge will go down. So whats the big deal I blow that much taking friends out to eat in one night. The point I'm trying to make is the cost difference is small and should not be a hangup. There are good and bad points with all the units out now.

One of my problems with the Meg which is a good unit is that it's built by a small operation dominated by one person and only does one thing and like the Cis might very well not be around in a few years. Having a CCR that the owner of the company decided to do something else or ran out of money bothers me a lot more. Now by its self that still would not stop me from buying one though.

I do agree with you there with the point that it is runned by one guy, the fact that worries me there is that he is the only IT trainer.

Why do you think that lime will go up and cartridge will go down?
Basically i do not mind... any way suits me as i understand i can get cartridge for my meg as well...

The end of the day, for me and perhaps for many more 1500USD is quite alot of money, money that i would rather spend on something else.

Just cusious though, how many hours do you recommend on the cartridge?

/Jonny

diverklondike · 30th June 2006, 18:53

Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike)

Reeeaaaallly?

Tell it to Mark

(sorry couldnt resist - its just too easy

, will try harder)

Mike...

Good thing you are a such a good shot....

Dive Safe... Thanks for sharing your lessons learn...

Mark

Toren · 30th June 2006, 20:27

I continue to be amazed at the rubbish written by people who don't know much about the EAC and have never used them.
It's one solution, not the only solution.
I've used them in the Caymans and in Monterey in my Dolphin and absolutely loved them. I calculated they increased the cost of my recent two-week trip by 2%.
Now...would I want to rely on them when I go to Truk...?
Probably not.
Anyway, it's all moot for me now since I'm switching to the KISS Sport. But if I was diving an Rebreather that had the option of a EAC conversion canister, I'd grab one for sure, and probably use it most of the time.

**JPJones** · 1st July 2006, 02:18

Quote: (Originally Posted by JonnyB)

I do agree with you there with the point that it is runned by one guy, the fact that worries me there is that he is the only IT trainer.

Why do you think that lime will go up and cartridge will go down?
Basically i do not mind... any way suits me as i understand i can get cartridge for my meg as well...

The end of the day, for me and perhaps for many more 1500USD is quite alot of money, money that i would rather spend on something else.

Just cusious though, how many hours do you recommend on the cartridge?

/Jonny

Sorb has and is going up and there is supposed to be a upgrade to the manufacturing process at Micrpore that should bring down the price if it happens. Their biggest customer is the US Navy and not just diving.

You did say $400 difference not $1500 and most of my students have good jobs and $400 is not a lot of money to them.

As an IT I have to say follow manufcture recommendations and the the converion for the Meg does not work well or last as long. I would not recommend you using it. The Optima was designed around the Mircopore Cartridge and that is why in works so well in it.

Drmike · 1st July 2006, 03:28

Changing sorb on a rocky rain driven boat deck last weekend whilst trying not to vomit would have been a nice moment to have had the ability to pop in a cartridge instead

Would be great to have the option to swap between the two when boat conditions or lack of availability (cartridge) dictate.

seafox · 1st July 2006, 15:03

Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike)

Changing sorb on a rocky rain driven boat deck last weekend whilst trying not to vomit would have been a nice moment to have had the ability to pop in a cartridge instead

I concur! Being there, done that!
"Priceless", was the word I used!

E-man · 1st July 2006, 16:16

Quote: (Originally Posted by caveseeker7)

Your KISS students bought expensive sorb and have fairly inefficient scrubbers.
Bucket of Sodasorb 6-12 $100, around $17 per fill good for 5 hrs in the PRISM.
That's almost half what the cartridge cost and lasts more than 50% longer.

Pretty much means 3x the absorbant cost per hour. Add up the hours you
dive a year and you'll know if it's pocket change.

Of course, depends on the size of the pockets, too.

Yay for your PRISM its oh so great...so how do you like diving it?

E-man · 1st July 2006, 16:45

A few reasons I chose EAC not kitty poop catcher.

1) Not packing scrubber...I dont like caustic dust in my lungs
2) Not packing scrubber...I dont like wasting 15 mins of time when I could be sleeping on the boat
3) Not packing scrubber...As was said, packing on a rocking boat versus sliding in a new cartridge
4) Lower WOB...equals less work for you and your body = less co2 production
5) The caustic cocktail thing...I've seen water come out of sorb and I've seen it come out of EAC, that was enough for me.
7) On the Inspiration I've put the same amount of time as most people (self included) put on a sofno 8-12 pack
7) Easy to swap out a half used cartridge for a 'deep' or 'longer' dive and swap back to the half used cartridge for a not so long or deep dive...can't do that with the cat poop catching stuff, for me that makes for a longer duration total (depending on your dives)
8) They just look neat and seem more technologically advanced than the kitty litter...isnt that why we all have rebreathers anyway? So we can be the guy with the 'coolest' toys?

Reasons for the Optwoima
1) Price
2) EAC
3) I can put it together in 45 mins from it being in bits and peices (including gas fills and absorbent fill)
4) Packs up nicely in a suitcase (few hard bits, unlike a huge yellow hard cover)
5) Test data that shows different situations...gives me a better picture of what to expect
6) WOB is low
7) Its a pretty light unit with plenty of extra gas
8) DiveRite

n2diving · 1st July 2006, 17:20

The argument that granular sorb is more 'available' in remote or other undefined locations is a bit strange. I sell both and ship both all over the world.... I've been asking a few questions when someone calls and buys sorb to try and get a better handle on this.... my conclusion is the statement that granular sorb is more widely available therefore a better choice for an expedition quality rebreather just doesn't make much sense.

The reality is that divers genuinely travelling to remote destinations never hop on the plane expecting to walk unannounced into a dive shop at the destination and say "Two kegs of 8-12 please". They always work out their logistics by arranging to ship sorb ahead or even taking it with them.

In fact, in the more remote destinations... the cost of the sorb is a minor concern! It's the damn freight costs that are driving the price. I've shipped sorb to places where the shipping fees cost as much at the sorb. And I've done many many firedrills where sorb was not available, expired, etc and the freight costs to express it to the divers were way more than the cost of the sorb. In these circumstances, the cartridges would have the cost advantage because they weight less.

I also see a lot of comparisons to real world use of granular sorb vs 'manufacturer' recommendations for cartridges. Are some individuals getting double and triple the manfacturer recommended 3 hour max for the cartidges? Yes. Do they admit it publicly? No. Do they store their partially used cartridges for up to a month and then finish using them? Yes. Do they admit it publicly? No. But these same issues are true of sorb. Exceeding manufacturer recommends is a personal choice that each diver makes for themselves.... but it's not fair to compare apples and oranges.

30th June 2006, 12:05	#61 (permalink)
JPJones O2ptima Test Dummy Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Megalodon Sport Kiss Classic Kiss Optima Titan Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Florida Posts: 367	Re: Diverite Quote: (Originally Posted by JonnyB) On that $30 cartridge, how many hours do they get out of it... Cause if it is $20 a fill for lime and $30 for a micropore, then we are already 50% more expensive and lets say they get only 2 hours out if it that is 30%less time out of it, and lets say you do 100hours a year, then the cost could be $1500 for the micropore and 666 for the lime... And i buy mine in such a quantity, usually a pallet at a time, so i pay even less for mine, so i would guess that i end up at around $400-500 a year for it! /Jonny So your talking about the cost of 2 good trimix dives on OC and sorb is going up and the cartridge will go down. So whats the big deal I blow that much taking friends out to eat in one night. The point I'm trying to make is the cost difference is small and should not be a hangup. There are good and bad points with all the units out now. One of my problems with the Meg which is a good unit is that it's built by a small operation dominated by one person and only does one thing and like the Cis might very well not be around in a few years. Having a CCR that the owner of the company decided to do something else or ran out of money bothers me a lot more. Now by its self that still would not stop me from buying one though. __________________ NSS/CDS Training Chairman www.jpjscuba.com
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30th June 2006, 12:14	#62 (permalink)
JonnyB Johnny The Hatch Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Titan Other CCR Other SCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Inspiration Classic Megalodon Sport Kiss Classic Kiss Other CCR Other SCR Home Build Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Sweden (Stockholm)/Cyprus(Ayia Napa) Posts: 971	Re: Diverite Quote: (Originally Posted by JPJones) So your talking about the cost of 2 good trimix dives on OC and sorb is going up and the cartridge will go down. So whats the big deal I blow that much taking friends out to eat in one night. The point I'm trying to make is the cost difference is small and should not be a hangup. There are good and bad points with all the units out now. One of my problems with the Meg which is a good unit is that it's built by a small operation dominated by one person and only does one thing and like the Cis might very well not be around in a few years. Having a CCR that the owner of the company decided to do something else or ran out of money bothers me a lot more. Now by its self that still would not stop me from buying one though. I do agree with you there with the point that it is runned by one guy, the fact that worries me there is that he is the only IT trainer. Why do you think that lime will go up and cartridge will go down? Basically i do not mind... any way suits me as i understand i can get cartridge for my meg as well... The end of the day, for me and perhaps for many more 1500USD is quite alot of money, money that i would rather spend on something else. Just cusious though, how many hours do you recommend on the cartridge? /Jonny __________________ A quote from Crazyduck - In remembering our own Rob Davies. "Outbound flight 777 heavy you are cleared for flight Due west into that warm red Texas sunset You have angels on your wings and divers memories on your six." Rest In Peace http://www.divetekcyprus.com http://www.diveccr.com
(Online)

30th June 2006, 18:53	#63 (permalink)
diverklondike Just one of the Peasants Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Delaware, USA Posts: 1,614	Re: Diverite Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike) Reeeaaaallly? Tell it to Mark (sorry couldnt resist - its just too easy , will try harder) Mike... Good thing you are a such a good shot.... Dive Safe... Thanks for sharing your lessons learn... Mark
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30th June 2006, 20:27	#64 (permalink)
Toren In Rebreather holding pattern... Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Dolphin Other Rebreather/s: Dolphin Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: SF, CA Posts: 114	Re: Diverite I continue to be amazed at the rubbish written by people who don't know much about the EAC and have never used them. It's one solution, not the only solution. I've used them in the Caymans and in Monterey in my Dolphin and absolutely loved them. I calculated they increased the cost of my recent two-week trip by 2%. Now...would I want to rely on them when I go to Truk...? Probably not. Anyway, it's all moot for me now since I'm switching to the KISS Sport. But if I was diving an Rebreather that had the option of a EAC conversion canister, I'd grab one for sure, and probably use it most of the time. __________________ ------ "Sh*t does happen, it is our job to keep it a minor annoyance by training, proper gear configuration, emergency skills practice and a survival mindset." --Ron Micjan
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1st July 2006, 02:18	#65 (permalink)
JPJones O2ptima Test Dummy Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Megalodon Sport Kiss Classic Kiss Optima Titan Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Florida Posts: 367	Re: Diverite Quote: (Originally Posted by JonnyB) I do agree with you there with the point that it is runned by one guy, the fact that worries me there is that he is the only IT trainer. Why do you think that lime will go up and cartridge will go down? Basically i do not mind... any way suits me as i understand i can get cartridge for my meg as well... The end of the day, for me and perhaps for many more 1500USD is quite alot of money, money that i would rather spend on something else. Just cusious though, how many hours do you recommend on the cartridge? /Jonny Sorb has and is going up and there is supposed to be a upgrade to the manufacturing process at Micrpore that should bring down the price if it happens. Their biggest customer is the US Navy and not just diving. You did say $400 difference not $1500 and most of my students have good jobs and $400 is not a lot of money to them. As an IT I have to say follow manufcture recommendations and the the converion for the Meg does not work well or last as long. I would not recommend you using it. The Optima was designed around the Mircopore Cartridge and that is why in works so well in it. __________________ NSS/CDS Training Chairman www.jpjscuba.com
(Offline)

1st July 2006, 03:28	#66 (permalink)
Drmike Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Ouroboros Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,325	Re: Diverite Changing sorb on a rocky rain driven boat deck last weekend whilst trying not to vomit would have been a nice moment to have had the ability to pop in a cartridge instead Would be great to have the option to swap between the two when boat conditions or lack of availability (cartridge) dictate. __________________ Cave diving is a sport Wreck diving is a sport Diving in general is a sport 'Rebreather diving' is not a sport its the delusional obsession with a highly dangerous and often inappropriate piece of equipment
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1st July 2006, 15:03	#67 (permalink)
seafox 02ptima Instructor Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Optima Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: TORONTO, CANADA -Have "02ptima" will travel! Posts: 172	Re: Diverite Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike) Changing sorb on a rocky rain driven boat deck last weekend whilst trying not to vomit would have been a nice moment to have had the ability to pop in a cartridge instead I concur! Being there, done that! "Priceless", was the word I used! __________________ Protect the SHARKS! Excellence is never an accident; it is always the result of high intention, sincere effort, intelligent direction, skillful execution and the vision to see obstacles as opportunities. Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards!
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1st July 2006, 16:16	#68 (permalink)
E-man On the loop! Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Optima Other Rebreather/s: Titan Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Eastern Coast ;) Posts: 212	Re: Diverite Quote: (Originally Posted by caveseeker7) Your KISS students bought expensive sorb and have fairly inefficient scrubbers. Bucket of Sodasorb 6-12 $100, around $17 per fill good for 5 hrs in the PRISM. That's almost half what the cartridge cost and lasts more than 50% longer. Pretty much means 3x the absorbant cost per hour. Add up the hours you dive a year and you'll know if it's pocket change. Of course, depends on the size of the pockets, too. Yay for your PRISM its oh so great...so how do you like diving it?
(Offline)

1st July 2006, 16:45	#69 (permalink)
E-man On the loop! Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Optima Other Rebreather/s: Titan Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Eastern Coast ;) Posts: 212	Re: Diverite A few reasons I chose EAC not kitty poop catcher. 1) Not packing scrubber...I dont like caustic dust in my lungs 2) Not packing scrubber...I dont like wasting 15 mins of time when I could be sleeping on the boat 3) Not packing scrubber...As was said, packing on a rocking boat versus sliding in a new cartridge 4) Lower WOB...equals less work for you and your body = less co2 production 5) The caustic cocktail thing...I've seen water come out of sorb and I've seen it come out of EAC, that was enough for me. 7) On the Inspiration I've put the same amount of time as most people (self included) put on a sofno 8-12 pack 7) Easy to swap out a half used cartridge for a 'deep' or 'longer' dive and swap back to the half used cartridge for a not so long or deep dive...can't do that with the cat poop catching stuff, for me that makes for a longer duration total (depending on your dives) 8) They just look neat and seem more technologically advanced than the kitty litter...isnt that why we all have rebreathers anyway? So we can be the guy with the 'coolest' toys? Reasons for the Optwoima 1) Price 2) EAC 3) I can put it together in 45 mins from it being in bits and peices (including gas fills and absorbent fill) 4) Packs up nicely in a suitcase (few hard bits, unlike a huge yellow hard cover) 5) Test data that shows different situations...gives me a better picture of what to expect 6) WOB is low 7) Its a pretty light unit with plenty of extra gas 8) DiveRite
(Offline)

1st July 2006, 17:20	#70 (permalink)
n2diving Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Optima Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Florida, USA Posts: 272	Re: Diverite The argument that granular sorb is more 'available' in remote or other undefined locations is a bit strange. I sell both and ship both all over the world.... I've been asking a few questions when someone calls and buys sorb to try and get a better handle on this.... my conclusion is the statement that granular sorb is more widely available therefore a better choice for an expedition quality rebreather just doesn't make much sense. The reality is that divers genuinely travelling to remote destinations never hop on the plane expecting to walk unannounced into a dive shop at the destination and say "Two kegs of 8-12 please". They always work out their logistics by arranging to ship sorb ahead or even taking it with them. In fact, in the more remote destinations... the cost of the sorb is a minor concern! It's the damn freight costs that are driving the price. I've shipped sorb to places where the shipping fees cost as much at the sorb. And I've done many many firedrills where sorb was not available, expired, etc and the freight costs to express it to the divers were way more than the cost of the sorb. In these circumstances, the cartridges would have the cost advantage because they weight less. I also see a lot of comparisons to real world use of granular sorb vs 'manufacturer' recommendations for cartridges. Are some individuals getting double and triple the manfacturer recommended 3 hour max for the cartidges? Yes. Do they admit it publicly? No. Do they store their partially used cartridges for up to a month and then finish using them? Yes. Do they admit it publicly? No. But these same issues are true of sorb. Exceeding manufacturer recommends is a personal choice that each diver makes for themselves.... but it's not fair to compare apples and oranges.
(Offline)

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