Rebreather Safety

JonnyB

hey stu, i totally agree with you, i would like to add a few points...

1. standarize training, precially on the meg, there is no manual yet.
2. calibration, the discussion about calibration after freds passing made me realize that this is a subject we all need to learn more about. The manufacturer need to send out updates to its instructors/owners on things that could be done better.
3. ffm, perhaps if we as a community protest enough to KM we can get the nato pod released to general public, also this as a safety issue, perhaps we can see to it that it gets cheaper....

We are a large community, we need to start protesting to, officials, manufacturers and instructors.
United as we are we do have power to achieve things.

/jonny

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db8us

Stu, i could not agree more !

But we also should discuss things people do not want to hear.
No matter if they are right or not, that everyones own conclusion.

A good start would be like divermole did in the past, collect all accident data and the report results.
So we can stay up to date which reports have come out and whoch ones not.

We have to question training and standards.
We have to question bailout, alpinism and other ideas
we have to question health and why the divers are not medically screened better if the heartattack-rate is so high.

and so on and so on.

It is not about about guilt, it is about safety !

schford

Phi - please don't selectivley quote me - If you are going to quote me, quote the whole sentance - I don't like my statements being taken out of context the whole point of that sentance was " I don't think we should focus on x or y unit"

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Bailout and Kit Management account for Murphy's Law

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schford

You are spot on here - I think I tried to avoid thinking about it before but with everything that has happened this year and now Rob - I think it is time that Rebreather World made a positive contribution to making Rebreather diving safer.

I don't want any political point scoring with this whole thing though - it is not about units or being made to do training - this whole thing is about making it safer for diver's like us.

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Bailout and Kit Management account for Murphy's Law

The only bad question is one you did not ask and later wish you had.

Use of Rebreather World is subject to the Rebreather World Terms & Conditions of Use

hchoat

Hear hear! This is something I have been interested in seeing since I began the journey toward becoming an Rebreather diver. As we all know, the information (real information, not watered down "reports") available for diving accidents and fatalities is less than optimal. When speaking of rebreather accidents, the information available is abysmal. I really think that this is an area where we as a community are failing ourselves- and it is a failing that we should be diligently trying to rectify.

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das

I am pleased that there is now some interest in a systematic attempt to track and analyze r/b incidents. I support the effort. Key to effort is a template to record the data so that analysis can be made. Data must be organized so that an analysis can be made and conclusions can be drawn.

das

Mdemon

I agree. Whilst there are various attempts world-wide at logging accidents, here is the largest concentration of active Rebreather users. And we are likely to know non-Members too, so we have a better chance of getting accurate information.

It's tough, though. I am very keen to read all I can about Rebreather fatalities so I can assess the risks for myself. However, I'm not sure how I would feel if someone I knew well died and the subsequent analysis wasn't "tactful".

Some Ground Rules needed Stuart? Definitely not "kid gloves" - a f*ck up should be shown as such, but nevertheless, respectful to those left behind as much as the divers themselves.

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"Once the agenda-monkeys and perfect-worlders have moved on, perhaps we can do some diving?"

Andy M

Hear hear. I think it is time we had a proper incident database built into Rebreather World, along the same lines as the divermole site (which is very out of date) and Sheck Exleys cave diving incident database.

Rebreather World is a good focal place to keep this data for CCR and SCR divers and it has a good membership distributed worldwide. There are other incident databases out there, but the problem is that they are not open, and require you to send details in, and you have to contact for access to data. Theres no way to tell if someone has already sent the incident in, and it has limited accessibility. I also think there should be anonymity in the incident reports.

On the tech front, perhaps it could be done via a modified vbulletin.org hackDB? I cant find another suitable plugin, Stuart? It would need the ability to export CSV or TSV for statistics generation in excel.

I volunteer to assist in suggesting suitable fields and help input the historic incidents into it. If there is interest in such an endeavour perhaps we can fork that off into a new discussion thread?

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Know your PO2 at all times

bgpartri

Because we have so little information about most of the deaths, it will be very hard to do much with the data. There have been quite a few such efforts over the years and they all fade away.

But what are we really trying to accomplish. Are we trying to fix blame or are we trying to prevent future deaths.

If we are trying to prevent future deaths, then if there are ANY deaths that we are pretty sure about, we can try to make sure that our diving habits will preclude it happening to us. Close calls are valuable too. I have had a couple that have made me change my habits.

For example, because of a close call in the past, I now pre-breathe my unit. Just before I jump in, I stick my DSV in my mouth and exhale. I watch the PPO2 fall. Then I watch the solenoid or orifice bring up the PPO2. This ensures that my guages are on, my O2 has gas, my O2 is on, and my automatic addition system is working. If I take the DSV out of my mouth for any reason, I do it again. This would have saved some lives if everyone did it.

Also I now flush to O2 on every ascent because of a near miss with current limited sensors a few years ago.

I have a whole list of the times various rebreathers have tried to kill me, but to hear the whole list costs beer.

Here are a few things that came grew from an email Tom Mount sent out a few years ago. This was a colaboration of quite a few people's input, and maybe it could be worked into a document. Here is a version that I sent out at one point:

1) I will be looking at my PO2 the moment before I get in the water.

2) I will be CERTAIN that O2 is being added the moment before I get in the water.

3) I will check my PO2 at least every 4 minutes during every dive, and more often on ascent and descent.

4) I will dive within my CURRENT skill level.

5) I will always have a solid plan for bail-out so there will never be a reason for panic.

6) I will know my calibration is accurate.

7) I will not dive a malfunctioning rebreather.

8) I will always assume the CCR is going to fail and be ready to perform the appropriate procedure.

9) I will faithfully do pre-dive checks.

I also have an idea of how this could be done and actually have the process come to completion. We would have to come up some things that we know have killed people, or have caused a close call. We would create a heading for each of them something like the list above.

For example:
- I will know that my calibration is accurate

Since there is absolutely no chance of getting agreement on the method of doing that, we would allow more than one way

- I will know that my calibration is accurate by
--- flushing to o2 on ascent -or-
--- flushing to o2 on descent -or-
--- using a pressure pot to check my cells

We could even start a thread for each issue. For example, make a thread about deaths or close calls from bad cell calibration. Then someone could take any of the ideas that achieved any consensus and put them into the master document.

Whoever assembles/maintains the document would need to go to great lenghts to be impartial.

Sorry about writing a book, but I would really like to see a document that would allow people to access the enourmous accumulated experience on this forum.

Since all rebreathers will fail eventually, it is a certainty that you will die diving your rebreather if you miss failures or fail to respond to them.

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UWSojourner

This would be very valuable I think. Especially if moderators could keep the focus on 1) potential problems with Rebreather x that may have contributed to an accident, 2) potential problems with diver technique that may have contributed to an accident and 3) suggested steps to enhance safety.

However, if we can't critique the Rebreather and how its design may need extra caution in certain areas, then I think the discussion would be next to useless. Hopefully moderators could police who might be bashing just for the sake of bashing a RB they don't like (and probably don't own/dive) and who might be pointing out areas of concern.