Tec/rebreather question

College Diver · 11th November 2007, 21:51

Hello!

I am about as green as they get - 18 hours on OC under my belt so far since being OW certified in June various environments from high altitude lakes to getting rolled on beach entries to falling off of cattle boats.
I have wanted to dive my whole life, always with an eye on rebreathers (I can't rationally explain why, except the idea of practically no-limit diving coupled with silence just calls to me. As does penetration wreck diving, and cave diving. I have been looking into technical diving lately (a subject I am sure all of you on this board are very well versed in) Advanced Nitrox training - Decompression training, so forth, and I am currently saving up for the hardware for a doubles rig (I am currently diving a 40# wing.

While investigating prices on Nitrox training, I heard some advice for the third time since being certified that seems to make a lot of sense from the investment standpoint: save my money. Skip the doubles rig. Buy a rebreather.

The logic behind this thinking is that a full tech set up will end up costing about 10K. A rebreather costs about 10K. Once I get on a rebreather, I will end up selling my tech equipment because OC will be used for bailout situations, or maybe for those times I want to dive < 100fsw with little or no fuss.
I have heard this reasoning from 3 different rebreather pilots (actually every one of those whom I have had the opportunity to meet and talk with.

Furthermore, upon asking about the Megalodon system, two of the three recommended the Inspiration/Evolution line with the Vision electronics package.

I know I am most likely going to get biased feed back (everyone on here has made the decision to switch to CCR, obviously) regarding the use of rebreathers - so my question, pointedly, is this:

1) Does the argument of holding off on the tech rig in order to purchase a rebreather seem logical to those who have already gone through the progression and made the purchase?

2) Is the Vision electronics package really that radically different from the other comp/controllers sold with other models?

I plan to continue training for the purpose of doing deep water wreck diving
as well as cave penetration/exploration, for that is where my interest lies. I was told to wait, and do the training on the rebreather.

David Pye · 11th November 2007, 22:02

Hi Alan,

Some of what you say is definitely resonating with me.

I bought a pair of twin 12 litre cylinders and all the twinset 'stuff' about a year ago when I decided that the kind of diving I wanted to do put me beyond single cylinder stuff. I wish I hadn't really bothered because I knew I wanted to go Rebreather.

So, now I've gone Rebreather, the twinset regs became stage/bailout bottle regs, the wing and backplate are strapped to the rebreather, and the twinset needs to go on eBay when I can be bothered to do it!

So, not really sure. If you are OW trained only, you would need to do a few more things (Adv Nitrox etc) before you can go Rebreather, so to me the thing is: What timescale are you planning to go RB? If it's ASAP, then you might want to reconsider the point of twins. If it's a couple of years as you gain more experience, you might want to consider them as and when you need them. If you do change to a RB from doubles hopefully you will find a fair amount of stuff that can be re-purposed so you dont end up with that much useless kit.

Hope that helps somewhat!

David

PaulTG2 · 11th November 2007, 22:09

Hello,

It would seem to *me* that it would make more sense to go straight to the rebreather for a number of reasons:

1) While some skills and knowledge pass over from OC tech diving, there is much that is different. If you don't intend to dive OC tech then why learn a lot of things that you'll just have to re-learn from a the rebreather perspective. While knowledge is never truely wasted, focusing on what you need in the long terms seems to make sense.

2) Much of the equipment (dive computers, OC regulators, harnesses, etc) can, if purchased carefully, follow you to rebreathers, some can't. Why spend funds on the equipment you'll have to resell at a loss later on.

3) You need to get familar with your rebreather before you start hard technical diving. The earlier you start, the more familar and comfortable you'll be in your rebreather when you start technical diving. Why start OC and then have to "backup" in your technical diving progress to integrate and get comfortable with the rebreather version of those dives-- which takes alot of dives.

More folks are starting to push rebreathers earlier in the training -- including skipping OC completely and doing your initial training on rebreathers. For people who know they are going to rebreathers it makes sense -- particularly if they are looking to technical diving.

That's just one person's thoughts though.

--p

JS1scuba · 11th November 2007, 22:11

you will need both and neeed to be good at both. There will come a time when you rebreather is crapped out or when its in the shop or when circumstances make it easier to go oc. You will have the choice of going OC or sitting on the deck.

at 18 hours on scuba now you are pretty green. You need to go put in another 50 good OC dives before even thinking about any tech diving. Go get a nice nitrox cert now, do some stress and rescue, add some specialties, become a well rounded diver ........ then explore other gas delivery system options.

My 2 cents

Good luck

JDS

**hound** · 11th November 2007, 22:40

People will give you all the reasons in the world to become an experienced OC diver before transitioning to CCR.

On the other hand, a hasty move into overhead environments after an experienced OC diver gets a rebreather can be very dangerous. I think many of us have learned that first hand. I certainly experienced a good amount of Donald Rumsfeld, "don't know what we don't know" despite excellent instructors - also reference the famous Dr. Pyle quote.)

I'm starting to feel that if you begin early with a rebreather, your move into bigger dives will be tempered by a more accurate relative view of your skills. A deep dive will seem deeper since you've never been there before on OC, or never managed multiple stages.

The 50-250 dives you spend learning basic raw SCUBA and water skills in shallow water will also hone your basic rebreather skills as you work your way deeper toward those wreck you've always wanted to see first hand.

Hopefully your mistakes and the process of ironing out your routines and gear configuration are conducted in more forgiving conditions and circumstances, and add to your skills.

On the less important, but sometimes limiting financial side, rebreathers seem to command a better resale value than most depreciating assets. If you ended up hating your rebreather you can sell it without a huge loss and train on OC which might ultimately be a safer transition. Just keep an eye on that pressure gauge!

-Matt

**wedivebc** · 12th November 2007, 00:32

Quote: (Originally Posted by JS1scuba)

you will need both and neeed to be good at both. There will come a time when you rebreather is crapped out or when its in the shop or when circumstances make it easier to go oc. You will have the choice of going OC or sitting on the deck.

My 2 cents

Good luck

JDS

Spoken like a true tech equipment salesman

Bobnob · 12th November 2007, 01:08

Quote: (Originally Posted by wedivebc)

Spoken like a true tech equipment salesman

i would say the man is telling the truth , I dont think he is being a salesman ,

,

JS1scuba · 12th November 2007, 01:19

Quote: (Originally Posted by wedivebc)

Spoken like a true tech equipment salesman

That's Diving Technologist to you!

The decision on what to have comes down to this. If you need a truck for your job you also need a sports car for a date with a hottie. (car salesman) If you have a yacht you need a tender (boat salesman)

better to know how to use both than to only be able to use one. A new diver who only knows how to use CCR will be hindered in the big picture.

coincidently while writing this post I got a call from Dr. Hamilton regarding the DAN Technical Conference in January ------ anyway -- i mentioned this thread and he said .....

"the military today starts training pilots on small jets now because that's all they will ever fly." "........ till they want to go play."

It was an interesting statement and has me thinking on this topic a bit more.

cheers

jds

Bobnob · 12th November 2007, 01:47

all well and good, but they do get

Shawn · 12th November 2007, 02:19

Glanced at several of the other responses, and for the most part I agree with what is being said. However given that; here is what I have to say.

1) Training in OC will not fail you. When your Rebreather fails you have to resort beck to your OC training.

2) I'm also new to the CCR Rebreather, infact mine gets delivered this week. I chose the MEG over the inspiration for a couple of very basic reasons;

I do a lot of sump diving, so I wanted a unit that is very, very durable

I don't need the Vision electronics offered by Inspiration, while it is a good package I prefer to use custom tables that I create.

The inspiration/vision only has one display, I know it's old school, but I like redundancy

I also was attracted to the modular design of the MEG vs all other brands

3) This is a little more of a sore point for some, so if I offend you it wasn't my intention....

As a new diver ( 18hrs?? ) your SAC rate more than likely isn't very good, and your experiance level for managing and preventing emergancies hasn't matured yet.
Here is where I think a lot of new divers get hurt. You rely on what you are told because you haven't been diving long enough to know for yourself. An experianced Rebreather diver "MIGHT" convince you that your RB will easily make the 3hr planned bottom time. But if your SAC rate sucks, then your scrubber duration could be significantly less.

You might get told a 40cuft for bail out will be fine...but if your planning a dive to 300', 175', basically anything past 130' then you will need to take enough gas so that you can make an open water ascent in the event of a total failure ( this is my openion ).

While rebreathers are very cool technology they are very different from OC, and if they fail you have very serious problems with little to no indication. I have been diving for several years, and dive to an average of 225' for 1-2 hrs at a time, this year alone I have done over 100 technical dives...The point is that even as much experiance as I have Rebreather's can be confusing, dangerous, and expensive!! by the time that you will be ready to buy one, the technology will change.

While Rebreather's are really cool they have the potential to be the most deadly pice of equipment you own.

DO the OC training (borrow or rent equipment if needed) and stay in touch with this forum, I have and continue to learn a lot from these guys!!!!

Good Luck, and I hope I didn't ramble too much

11th November 2007, 21:51	#1 (permalink)
College Diver New Member Current Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Bakersfield, CA; for now Posts: 8	Tec/rebreather question Hello! I am about as green as they get - 18 hours on OC under my belt so far since being OW certified in June various environments from high altitude lakes to getting rolled on beach entries to falling off of cattle boats. I have wanted to dive my whole life, always with an eye on rebreathers (I can't rationally explain why, except the idea of practically no-limit diving coupled with silence just calls to me. As does penetration wreck diving, and cave diving. I have been looking into technical diving lately (a subject I am sure all of you on this board are very well versed in) Advanced Nitrox training - Decompression training, so forth, and I am currently saving up for the hardware for a doubles rig (I am currently diving a 40# wing. While investigating prices on Nitrox training, I heard some advice for the third time since being certified that seems to make a lot of sense from the investment standpoint: save my money. Skip the doubles rig. Buy a rebreather. The logic behind this thinking is that a full tech set up will end up costing about 10K. A rebreather costs about 10K. Once I get on a rebreather, I will end up selling my tech equipment because OC will be used for bailout situations, or maybe for those times I want to dive < 100fsw with little or no fuss. I have heard this reasoning from 3 different rebreather pilots (actually every one of those whom I have had the opportunity to meet and talk with. Furthermore, upon asking about the Megalodon system, two of the three recommended the Inspiration/Evolution line with the Vision electronics package. I know I am most likely going to get biased feed back (everyone on here has made the decision to switch to CCR, obviously) regarding the use of rebreathers - so my question, pointedly, is this: 1) Does the argument of holding off on the tech rig in order to purchase a rebreather seem logical to those who have already gone through the progression and made the purchase? 2) Is the Vision electronics package really that radically different from the other comp/controllers sold with other models? I plan to continue training for the purpose of doing deep water wreck diving as well as cave penetration/exploration, for that is where my interest lies. I was told to wait, and do the training on the rebreather. __________________ Alan C PADI DMC
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11th November 2007, 22:02	#2 (permalink)
David Pye CK#69 Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: May 2006 Location: Newcastle Upon Tyne Posts: 175	Re: Tec/rebreather question Hi Alan, Some of what you say is definitely resonating with me. I bought a pair of twin 12 litre cylinders and all the twinset 'stuff' about a year ago when I decided that the kind of diving I wanted to do put me beyond single cylinder stuff. I wish I hadn't really bothered because I knew I wanted to go Rebreather. So, now I've gone Rebreather, the twinset regs became stage/bailout bottle regs, the wing and backplate are strapped to the rebreather, and the twinset needs to go on eBay when I can be bothered to do it! So, not really sure. If you are OW trained only, you would need to do a few more things (Adv Nitrox etc) before you can go Rebreather, so to me the thing is: What timescale are you planning to go RB? If it's ASAP, then you might want to reconsider the point of twins. If it's a couple of years as you gain more experience, you might want to consider them as and when you need them. If you do change to a RB from doubles hopefully you will find a fair amount of stuff that can be re-purposed so you dont end up with that much useless kit. Hope that helps somewhat! David
(Online)

11th November 2007, 22:09	#3 (permalink)
PaulTG2 Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Virginia, USA Posts: 425	Re: Tec/rebreather question Hello, It would seem to me that it would make more sense to go straight to the rebreather for a number of reasons: 1) While some skills and knowledge pass over from OC tech diving, there is much that is different. If you don't intend to dive OC tech then why learn a lot of things that you'll just have to re-learn from a the rebreather perspective. While knowledge is never truely wasted, focusing on what you need in the long terms seems to make sense. 2) Much of the equipment (dive computers, OC regulators, harnesses, etc) can, if purchased carefully, follow you to rebreathers, some can't. Why spend funds on the equipment you'll have to resell at a loss later on. 3) You need to get familar with your rebreather before you start hard technical diving. The earlier you start, the more familar and comfortable you'll be in your rebreather when you start technical diving. Why start OC and then have to "backup" in your technical diving progress to integrate and get comfortable with the rebreather version of those dives-- which takes alot of dives. More folks are starting to push rebreathers earlier in the training -- including skipping OC completely and doing your initial training on rebreathers. For people who know they are going to rebreathers it makes sense -- particularly if they are looking to technical diving. That's just one person's thoughts though. --p
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11th November 2007, 22:11	#4 (permalink)
JS1scuba RebreatherWorld Sponsor Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Inspiration Vision Evolution Sport Kiss Classic Kiss MK 15.X Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Lake Havasu City, AZ - USA Posts: 513	Re: Tec/rebreather question you will need both and neeed to be good at both. There will come a time when you rebreather is crapped out or when its in the shop or when circumstances make it easier to go oc. You will have the choice of going OC or sitting on the deck. at 18 hours on scuba now you are pretty green. You need to go put in another 50 good OC dives before even thinking about any tech diving. Go get a nice nitrox cert now, do some stress and rescue, add some specialties, become a well rounded diver ........ then explore other gas delivery system options. My 2 cents Good luck JDS __________________ Joel Silverstein, VP COO Tech Diving Limited a Division of Scuba Training and Technology Inc. http://www.nautilusdiveplanner.com http://www.nobubblediving.com
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11th November 2007, 22:40	#5 (permalink)
hound Supporting Member Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Brooklyn, NY Posts: 14	Re: Tec/rebreather question People will give you all the reasons in the world to become an experienced OC diver before transitioning to CCR. On the other hand, a hasty move into overhead environments after an experienced OC diver gets a rebreather can be very dangerous. I think many of us have learned that first hand. I certainly experienced a good amount of Donald Rumsfeld, "don't know what we don't know" despite excellent instructors - also reference the famous Dr. Pyle quote.) I'm starting to feel that if you begin early with a rebreather, your move into bigger dives will be tempered by a more accurate relative view of your skills. A deep dive will seem deeper since you've never been there before on OC, or never managed multiple stages. The 50-250 dives you spend learning basic raw SCUBA and water skills in shallow water will also hone your basic rebreather skills as you work your way deeper toward those wreck you've always wanted to see first hand. Hopefully your mistakes and the process of ironing out your routines and gear configuration are conducted in more forgiving conditions and circumstances, and add to your skills. On the less important, but sometimes limiting financial side, rebreathers seem to command a better resale value than most depreciating assets. If you ended up hating your rebreather you can sell it without a huge loss and train on OC which might ultimately be a safer transition. Just keep an eye on that pressure gauge! -Matt
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12th November 2007, 00:32	#6 (permalink)
wedivebc Dave Tomblin Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Other CCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Vancouver Island BC Canada Posts: 1,444	Re: Tec/rebreather question Quote: (Originally Posted by JS1scuba) you will need both and neeed to be good at both. There will come a time when you rebreather is crapped out or when its in the shop or when circumstances make it easier to go oc. You will have the choice of going OC or sitting on the deck. My 2 cents Good luck JDS Spoken like a true tech equipment salesman __________________ Cheers, Dave.... Man is the only animal burdened with the knowledge he will eventually die
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12th November 2007, 01:08	#7 (permalink)
Bobnob Sock Puppet banned - gobfish1 back Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Inspiration Vision Evolution Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: south of north Posts: 30	Re: Tec/rebreather question Quote: (Originally Posted by wedivebc) Spoken like a true tech equipment salesman i would say the man is telling the truth , I dont think he is being a salesman , , Last edited by Bobnob : 12th November 2007 at 01:40.
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12th November 2007, 01:19	#8 (permalink)
JS1scuba RebreatherWorld Sponsor Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Inspiration Vision Evolution Sport Kiss Classic Kiss MK 15.X Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Lake Havasu City, AZ - USA Posts: 513	Re: Tec/rebreather question Quote: (Originally Posted by wedivebc) Spoken like a true tech equipment salesman That's Diving Technologist to you! The decision on what to have comes down to this. If you need a truck for your job you also need a sports car for a date with a hottie. (car salesman) If you have a yacht you need a tender (boat salesman) better to know how to use both than to only be able to use one. A new diver who only knows how to use CCR will be hindered in the big picture. coincidently while writing this post I got a call from Dr. Hamilton regarding the DAN Technical Conference in January ------ anyway -- i mentioned this thread and he said ..... "the military today starts training pilots on small jets now because that's all they will ever fly." "........ till they want to go play." It was an interesting statement and has me thinking on this topic a bit more. cheers jds __________________ Joel Silverstein, VP COO Tech Diving Limited a Division of Scuba Training and Technology Inc. http://www.nautilusdiveplanner.com http://www.nobubblediving.com Last edited by JS1scuba : 12th November 2007 at 01:54.
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12th November 2007, 02:19	#10 (permalink)
Shawn Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other CCR RB80 / Clone Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR RB80 / Clone Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Kansas City Kansas Posts: 144	Re: Tec/rebreather question Glanced at several of the other responses, and for the most part I agree with what is being said. However given that; here is what I have to say. 1) Training in OC will not fail you. When your Rebreather fails you have to resort beck to your OC training. 2) I'm also new to the CCR Rebreather, infact mine gets delivered this week. I chose the MEG over the inspiration for a couple of very basic reasons; I do a lot of sump diving, so I wanted a unit that is very, very durable I don't need the Vision electronics offered by Inspiration, while it is a good package I prefer to use custom tables that I create. The inspiration/vision only has one display, I know it's old school, but I like redundancy I also was attracted to the modular design of the MEG vs all other brands 3) This is a little more of a sore point for some, so if I offend you it wasn't my intention.... As a new diver ( 18hrs?? ) your SAC rate more than likely isn't very good, and your experiance level for managing and preventing emergancies hasn't matured yet. Here is where I think a lot of new divers get hurt. You rely on what you are told because you haven't been diving long enough to know for yourself. An experianced Rebreather diver "MIGHT" convince you that your RB will easily make the 3hr planned bottom time. But if your SAC rate sucks, then your scrubber duration could be significantly less. You might get told a 40cuft for bail out will be fine...but if your planning a dive to 300', 175', basically anything past 130' then you will need to take enough gas so that you can make an open water ascent in the event of a total failure ( this is my openion ). While rebreathers are very cool technology they are very different from OC, and if they fail you have very serious problems with little to no indication. I have been diving for several years, and dive to an average of 225' for 1-2 hrs at a time, this year alone I have done over 100 technical dives...The point is that even as much experiance as I have Rebreather's can be confusing, dangerous, and expensive!! by the time that you will be ready to buy one, the technology will change. While Rebreather's are really cool they have the potential to be the most deadly pice of equipment you own. DO the OC training (borrow or rent equipment if needed) and stay in touch with this forum, I have and continue to learn a lot from these guys!!!! Good Luck, and I hope I didn't ramble too much __________________ WWW.DiveOne.net
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