Tec/rebreather question

UWSojourner

Bakersfield? Must mean you dive like me ... when you can. Everything I have seen so far confirms what Richard Pyle said in "A Learner's Guide ..." that the most important quality a diver must have to survive Rebreather diving is discipline. Do you have it? I mean, really? Discipline?

If you have any question about it, get another 50+ dives, then go get doubles and another 100+ dives. Then think again about RBs.

I wish I could say that this was just bravado. But there is a level of awareness with RBs that is very unforgiving. Very! Deaths occur many times more often on RBs than OC diving. Think about that and why you believe you won't be a statistic. After you (and maybe your wife?) have thought about it as a hobby and you believe Rebreather diving is for you, then a Meg can be good. An Inspiration can be good. The stats seem to point to manually operated rigs as being safer (KISS, rEVO, etc.).

Think about family and take it slow if you can. If not, a Rebreather may suit you well. Good luck in your decision.

Mixaddict

This debate between OC vs. CCR for your initial tech training has been going on for years. In my opinion, use the right tool for the right job. Sometimes CCR is preferred, but other times OC is preferred. Maybe I'm old school, heck, I know I'm old school, but I think there is a lot to be gained by going the OC route first. If you never learn how to dive OC properly, you won't have OC available as a tool when it is needed. I was just thinking as I was doing a side mount cave dive a couple of weeks ago in Florida, that there is no way I could have pulled that particular dive off with CCR. Just not gonna happen. Logistically, with CCR and bailout, and the tight quarters, it would not have been practical with CCR. Im just saying, if it were up to me, I would make sure that you master both OC and CCR because there is a time and place for both.

Just my $.02
Regards,
Randy

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Randy Thornton (MixAddict)
Inspiration, Evolution,Hammerhead & Sentinel
CCR Instructor

human

As you see with the response trends listed so far, there is no perfect answer to this question. It ultimately will fall on your shoulders. Listen to everyones reasons on which way to go and chose what you think will suit you the best.

For myself, I started the typical way with Rec OC. Transitioning to OC Tech, continuing through Adv Trimix, cave, and now onto eCCR etc... When you look at the OC cost of multiple doubles, stages, deco bottles, primary/secondary/backup regs, Al/SS backplates, wings, etc. It get easier to see why some would say to just go CCR to start. With the total price you will spent over the course of Tech OC, a CCR only looks so expensive because of its up front expense. Hence the reason that you will hear, it's cheaper to just start CC (I've thought this also looking back). Not to mention all that you will spend on training for OC then continuing on to CC.

Now having the OC tech background will give you more versatility with places that you may choose to go diving. If I am driving from home to a dive location, I can easily take what I need to do CC, OC, or both. Now if I am flying, I have to check to see if the location can accommodate a CCR. Also as stated above, if I have CCR problems, being able to do OC Tech usually will allow me to continue with the diving (I sidemount with CC, so It's easily to get singles if I have to go OC).

I guess to sum it up, I have twice as much money/time invested but I also have many more options when I go diving.

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Abbo

Your question is really tough, because the rebreather commmunity doesn't have much experience of divers going stright from OC open water to rebreather diver without passing tech. Some people will overemphasise the importance of OC because they don't want to think their years building OC tech skills were wasted. Some will underemphasise them, forgetting what slow, hard work it was.

One thing is certain: you will need a very high quality instructor, because this won't be a run-of-the-mill course. Your instructor will need to substantially re-write the syllabus to be confident he has covered the ground with you, and the course may have to be longer than normal because you will have a lot to learn. Pick a relatively strict instructor, and if he does not certify you first time, don't be put off.

Your OC skills will need to be second nature, because when the rebreather packs up, and it will from time to time, you will be bailing out to OC. The only skills you can rely on in an emergency are those that are second nature - so don't underestimate the importance of building OC skills.

Skipbreather

I’d approach the question from a slightly different angle.

Job one on any newly minted diver’s dance card is to keep getting wet. Again and again. Don’t let your gear get dry! Do it until ALL the basic stuff- buoyancy, ear clearing, gas management (= how much air have I used?) w/o constantly looking at you gauges- is second nature. Learn to manage yourself and your OC gear in all conditions of waves, current, darkness, and viz. Have dive computers try to kill you. Have gear fail at the worst possible time. Develop a deep enough bag of tricks- a truly useful toolbox- that when the unexpected happens you can handle it safely w/o the slightest hint of panic. Dive often enough to make your gear a transparent extension of your body. When you’re there, then tech is just another straightforward step. Whether you choose CCR or the doubles route will be almost inconsequential. The key is to be truly at home, experienced, and self reliant in the water.

Enjoy the journey & don’t do nuthin’ dumb!

Ken

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Lab Rat

I’ll pitch in here. I’ll even step out and take a stance.

You absolutely MUST learn to be proficient on OC before beginning any Rebreather training.

There..I said it. Nomex undies snugged up and ready to go.

Here is why:

You will one day be diving a Rebreather when something will not work as it should…I don’t know when that will come, but it will come when you are a RB diver. When that happens, you may or may not be able to salvage the loop…one day you won’t...and when that happens, you will be on OC.

So now you have had a failure you couldn’t fix and ended up on OC (ie: things are not going well)…either you are now comfortable because you have done tons of OC deco and technical dives and this whole bail-out from 300’ deep and 1500’ back is no-biggie because you have done it before…or you are now scared to death because you have never had to come up from depth on OC before. Which sounds more logical?

Your bailout option (OC) should be familiar and easy to use and you should have experience with it prior to depending on it for your last-ditch emergency use….to do anything else is to set yourself up for failure. Also, once you start doing Rebreather stuff, all the OC, valve and bottle handling stuff will let you make intelligent choices about the thing that actually limits your RB diving…your OC bailout.

Like Joel said…you need to focus on breaking 100 recreational dives before getting anything other than Rescue and Nitrox. Get a plate and wing…you will be able to use or sell that when you flip to Rebreather. Get an AL 40 for O2 when you get to the technical part…you can use that for OC open water bailout with your RB…get twin 80s when you get to deco procedures…you can split them up and use them for bailout when you get to RB…you will never have enough regulators…so buy quality ones and you will have a need for them somewhere…I promise.

Hope this helps.

Richard

PS: In a way I envy you, you are about to get to see it all for the first time…don’t get scope-locked on a destination and forget to enjoy the journey!

wedivebc

And when that day happens remember to follow these important steps:
1) insert OC regulator
2) Breath in
3) Breath out
4) repeat as nessasary

There you go, if you follow those steps you will successfully be able to dive OC

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Cheers,

Dave....

Man is the only animal burdened with the knowledge he will eventually die

Mark Chase

I think this post is excellent

Having mulled this over Ihave altered my initial responce of "do it now why not?" Id now say, stay OC till you go for trimix qualification or suddenly realize twin 12s and a couple of ali40 or 7ltr deco stages, are not enough.

Dont do what I did and resist far too long I ended up with a half dozen twin sets and a dozen stages and spending £100+ on trimix for each dive.
I wasted about three years like this before realizing I should have gone CCR.

ATB

Mark

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nigelh

I'll go with the 'go direct to CCR' side.

You learn a lot on OC tech courses but none of the significant stuff is OC specific. As has been said 'put reg in mouth, breathe in, breathe out'.

I dived doubles and stages and was introduced to the boredom of hanging on a string to deco but it's just a subset of CCR diving. You still need to calculate and practice your bailout procedures which means your OC 'skills' are still there. The only thing OC tech diving did for me was to annoy me into making backplates at a sensible price for a few years. Well, and annoy a lot of people by diving inverts... but I'm good at annoying people.

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nigelh

Hanssing

The short answer - yes!

The long answer:
I did progression through Holidaydiver->Cold Water->Minor Deco->Accellerated Deco. All done on single tank + at later stage a pony.

I bought my equipment knowing that it would not be my final setup, but I allso knew that my normal reg+BCD could be used on holidays, and at a later stage on bail-out or a twinset. So I got a light BCD for travel and a decent regulator-setup. So these purchases are not wasted.
And the two 15l. tanks and a normal BCD will get a long way, initially.

I held off buying BP/Wing and twinsets because I did not need them initially, and when I decided that I was maxing out the capacity of a 15+4l setup I went with a rEvo.

Buying a tech-rig now, will not make your diving more pleasant to start with. They are heavy. I'd say go with a single-tank setup, and when the Deco+Depth+Tanks become something that really limits your diving, THEN decide what to get.

If you like BP+Wing then get a setup, but still keep it single-tank (+buddy) until you really need otherwise. I would adwise against buying twin-15l's or twin-12l's due to their weigt when they are not really needed.
Actually its also relevant how your (future) buddies are setup - since a heavy mismatch in gear makes no sense (ie. you in twin-12s while and they on single 15l's).

Concerning training:
I see no problem in going directly to CCR, but I think diving should be done as a really slow progression. And it really makes no sense bouying an exspensive CCR and then diving shallow no deco-dives. So only form the viewpoint that you could loose intrest in diving (a scare is sometimes all it takes to keep people dry), and then you'll have blown a lot of money.

So slow progression. Get REALLY hooked on diving, and then skip the twinsets - thats esentially how I did it, and I have not yet made a purchase
I've regretted except the wetsuit for coldwater diving *1...
But if you're really certain that CCR is THE solution - then go for it now.

Regards
Nicolai


*1: For some reason my old club thought everyone must start in wetsuit, eventhough I wanted to start diving dry right away - actually exactly the same discussion - the wetsuit was sold shortly after.

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Woohooo - I can change my rEvo!
Its going to be bitchin' tricked out piece of gear