Recommendation On Rebreather

**Gill Envy** · 6th June 2007, 19:27

i'm officially

my appologies.

I may hook up all three cells in paralell with both monitors but for now I am drawn to the pure isolationist theory. Sharing cells is not truly isolated and redundant. Just as two set point controllers going to one screen is not redundant nor is two set point controllers even going to one solenoid. But i know it may be splitting hairs, so to speak, and i'm looking forward to completing this transition and not getting this heady about it all.

I think it comes down to personal preference here, there are no stats to go on with this. I like the logic of total isolation, it just appeals to me more for now. the direction I'm headed in now will result in totally separate batteries in a separate compartments, totally separate cell readings to compare on totally separate handsets, totally different brands of po2 monitor, and redundancy in both the primary and back up that allow for expansion to all three cells and finally the complete elimination of the solenoid, replacing with a dual injection system (manual and constant flow).

It's a comprehensive solution to the volnerabilities I see in all eCCR's.

Call me anal, but I just don't see that much advantage to having all three cells in paralell and I see relying on a solenoid/set point controller as safety net as nothing more than an oxymoron.

perhaps i'm overreacting to to my wife's bad luck with her solenoid, but safety aside, I just don't want to have another trip screwed up by a simple little part that is designed mainly for conveneince but can lead to huge inconveneience.

Ok, i'll bring it back around to rebreather preference: Whatever you choose, redundancy that allows you to fly manually for successive dives is what i'd ensure through aftermarket modification, weather going eCCR or mCCR.

g

Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie)

Gill,

Why not running all 3 cells parallel - to the stock COPIS handset and Shearwater ?

Then you would have primary and secondary handsets to cross-check all 3 sensors, as well as deco build-in.

decoweenie · 7th June 2007, 03:41

Quote: (Originally Posted by Gill Envy)

Sharing cells is not truly isolated and redundant.

You are right, it is not. And the only way to achive that is having 6 sensors in the lid if you want 3 per handset.

Anyway, I am not sure you understood what I meant in my question so I just want to make it clear - and not trying to pursuade you either way...

I meant to connect all 3 sensors parallel to the Shearwater computer (not controller) instead of just 1 and a 4th sensor. This allows you to review all 3 sensors and still diving the COPIS via mCCR.

This gives you an extra level of redundancy in the handset.

There is no solenoid involved.

**Gill Envy** · 7th June 2007, 05:38

yeah, i must be losing something in translation here. I don't see why true redundancy and isolation would require 6 cells, or even 4. three cells to one po2 display is really only needed for an electronic controller that uses voting logic to drive the solenoid. As you have noted, in this scenario there is no solenoid, so requirement for 3 cells to one computer. I'd hook up two to the shearwater but it's not designed to work with two. It must use one or all three according to Bruce. I want isolation without adding more cells, so that means the shearwater gets one. At this point I am trading the value of having all three cells hooked up to both the shearwater and stock copis handset, for the value of true isolation. I will still be viewing all three cells every time I check, as both handsets will be side by side. If I ever get down to one cell, I will either rely on it temporarily to abort the dive or bail out. Again, this set up allows for either handset to be connected to all three cells in the event that either fails on a trip.

capish?

g

Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie)

You are right, it is not. And the only way to achive that is having 6 sensors in the lid if you want 3 per handset.

Anyway, I am not sure you understood what I meant in my question so I just want to make it clear - and not trying to pursuade you either way...

I meant to connect all 3 sensors parallel to the Shearwater computer (not controller) instead of just 1 and a 4th sensor. This allows you to review all 3 sensors and still diving the COPIS via mCCR.

This gives you an extra level of redundancy in the handset.

There is no solenoid involved.

decoweenie · 7th June 2007, 09:47

Quote: (Originally Posted by Gill Envy)

capish?

I have, just make sure that you do. We just have different views.

Anyway, sounds like you got it all worked out, so best wishes...

wearypanda · 7th June 2007, 10:59

Have you considered taking a look at the Pelagian? This is a manual CCR, made (relatively) close to you in Thailand. It is a very compact unit, superbly well designed and engineered, with excellent scrubber capacity/duration and is available with an ultra compact BOV. www.rebreatherlab.com

I originally intended to go eCCR, in fact I had put a deposit on an Evolution. After alot of research (thank you Rebreather World) and careful consideration I decided to do down the manual route for a number of reasons. I ended up choosing between the COPIS Meg and the Pelagian. In the end I decided to go with the Pelagian and recently completed MOD1. I am delighted with the Pelagian and would recommend anyone in the market for a CCR to take a good look at it.

Good luck, whichever route you decide on.

**Gill Envy** · 7th June 2007, 15:32

I'd like to start another thread for this debate as I want to make sure i'm considering all the angles before making my final decision, but i'm feeling bad about hijacking this one. so keep your eyes peeled and please jump in.

g

Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie)

I have, just make sure that you do. We just have different views.

Anyway, sounds like you got it all worked out, so best wishes...

**Gill Envy** · 7th June 2007, 15:37

the palagian design, as it comes stock with only 2 cells and an option for a third for deco and mental voting logic is one of my sources of my current thinking. if rebreather lab were as close to my house as ISC, and I could get my hands on one, it would be a lot more tempting. I'm looking forward to looking one over in person one of these days. Wearypanda, please do a write up on your experience. I realize you have probably only put a few hours on it but still, it would be great to hear a first hand account of your experience, of the needle valve and pressure compensating first stage, in particular. It's a very intriguing design to me and a bit controversial. All in all, the palagian seems to be making the boldest steps in mCCR design modification. I'm very curious to see how it all plays out.

g

Quote: (Originally Posted by wearypanda)

Have you considered taking a look at the Pelagian? This is a manual CCR, made (relatively) close to you in Thailand. It is a very compact unit, superbly well designed and engineered, with excellent scrubber capacity/duration and is available with an ultra compact BOV. www.rebreatherlab.com

I originally intended to go eCCR, in fact I had put a deposit on an Evolution. After alot of research (thank you Rebreather World) and careful consideration I decided to do down the manual route for a number of reasons. I ended up choosing between the COPIS Meg and the Pelagian. In the end I decided to go with the Pelagian and recently completed MOD1. I am delighted with the Pelagian and would recommend anyone in the market for a CCR to take a good look at it.

Good luck, whichever route you decide on.

Mark Chase · 7th June 2007, 16:32

Quote: (Originally Posted by sotongking)

Hi All,

I'm planning to take up rebreather but I have mixed comments on these two and I don't know will I get flamed for this?
Of the two (Megalodon & Inspiration Vision), which one is most recommended in terms of life span, maintenance and user-friendliness?

Thanks!

Am i right in thinking its not that easy to get things sent back to the UK for repair from Singapore?

If so, my advice would be to keep it a simple as possible and of your two chosen units, go for the Meg. This is purely on the basis that a pure set point controller unit has less to go wrong than a complex deco temp stick all singing and dancing unit.

From reading the posts on here the Meg has more DIY repair potential than the Vision.

Personally I have given up on electronics altogether and gone from a Classic latter to a Hammerhead and now i dive a MCCR (KISS). I am very pleased with it so far.

ATB

Mark Chase

Drmike · 7th June 2007, 17:43

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase)

Am i right in thinking its not that easy to get things sent back to the UK for repair from Singapore?

computer says nooooo

***schford*** · 7th June 2007, 19:14

Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike)

computer says nooooo

*laughing to myself*

and for any one round the world who has not seen it it is from ....

YouTube - Little Britain - Carol Beer

or

YouTube - Little Britain - Computer says no

6th June 2007, 19:27	#21 (permalink)
Gill Envy Shearwater Copis Diver Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Evolution Other CCR Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: seattle Posts: 1,302	Re: Recommendation On Rebreather i'm officially my appologies. I may hook up all three cells in paralell with both monitors but for now I am drawn to the pure isolationist theory. Sharing cells is not truly isolated and redundant. Just as two set point controllers going to one screen is not redundant nor is two set point controllers even going to one solenoid. But i know it may be splitting hairs, so to speak, and i'm looking forward to completing this transition and not getting this heady about it all. I think it comes down to personal preference here, there are no stats to go on with this. I like the logic of total isolation, it just appeals to me more for now. the direction I'm headed in now will result in totally separate batteries in a separate compartments, totally separate cell readings to compare on totally separate handsets, totally different brands of po2 monitor, and redundancy in both the primary and back up that allow for expansion to all three cells and finally the complete elimination of the solenoid, replacing with a dual injection system (manual and constant flow). It's a comprehensive solution to the volnerabilities I see in all eCCR's. Call me anal, but I just don't see that much advantage to having all three cells in paralell and I see relying on a solenoid/set point controller as safety net as nothing more than an oxymoron. perhaps i'm overreacting to to my wife's bad luck with her solenoid, but safety aside, I just don't want to have another trip screwed up by a simple little part that is designed mainly for conveneince but can lead to huge inconveneience. Ok, i'll bring it back around to rebreather preference: Whatever you choose, redundancy that allows you to fly manually for successive dives is what i'd ensure through aftermarket modification, weather going eCCR or mCCR. g Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie) Gill, Why not running all 3 cells parallel - to the stock COPIS handset and Shearwater ? Then you would have primary and secondary handsets to cross-check all 3 sensors, as well as deco build-in. __________________ Gill Envy ...Because I wasn't born with gills! ><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>
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7th June 2007, 03:41	#22 (permalink)
decoweenie Crash Test Dummy Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cairo Posts: 5,510	Re: Recommendation On Rebreather Quote: (Originally Posted by Gill Envy) Sharing cells is not truly isolated and redundant. You are right, it is not. And the only way to achive that is having 6 sensors in the lid if you want 3 per handset. Anyway, I am not sure you understood what I meant in my question so I just want to make it clear - and not trying to pursuade you either way... I meant to connect all 3 sensors parallel to the Shearwater computer (not controller) instead of just 1 and a 4th sensor. This allows you to review all 3 sensors and still diving the COPIS via mCCR. This gives you an extra level of redundancy in the handset. There is no solenoid involved. __________________ "...after a while you get bored offering advice to a bull that like to keep butting the fence with its head rather than walking through the open gate..." - Rebreather World PM
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7th June 2007, 05:38	#23 (permalink)
Gill Envy Shearwater Copis Diver Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Evolution Other CCR Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: seattle Posts: 1,302	Re: Recommendation On Rebreather yeah, i must be losing something in translation here. I don't see why true redundancy and isolation would require 6 cells, or even 4. three cells to one po2 display is really only needed for an electronic controller that uses voting logic to drive the solenoid. As you have noted, in this scenario there is no solenoid, so requirement for 3 cells to one computer. I'd hook up two to the shearwater but it's not designed to work with two. It must use one or all three according to Bruce. I want isolation without adding more cells, so that means the shearwater gets one. At this point I am trading the value of having all three cells hooked up to both the shearwater and stock copis handset, for the value of true isolation. I will still be viewing all three cells every time I check, as both handsets will be side by side. If I ever get down to one cell, I will either rely on it temporarily to abort the dive or bail out. Again, this set up allows for either handset to be connected to all three cells in the event that either fails on a trip. capish? g Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie) You are right, it is not. And the only way to achive that is having 6 sensors in the lid if you want 3 per handset. Anyway, I am not sure you understood what I meant in my question so I just want to make it clear - and not trying to pursuade you either way... I meant to connect all 3 sensors parallel to the Shearwater computer (not controller) instead of just 1 and a 4th sensor. This allows you to review all 3 sensors and still diving the COPIS via mCCR. This gives you an extra level of redundancy in the handset. There is no solenoid involved. __________________ Gill Envy ...Because I wasn't born with gills! ><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°> Last edited by Gill Envy : 7th June 2007 at 05:42.
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7th June 2007, 09:47	#24 (permalink)
decoweenie Crash Test Dummy Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cairo Posts: 5,510	Re: Recommendation On Rebreather Quote: (Originally Posted by Gill Envy) capish? I have, just make sure that you do. We just have different views. Anyway, sounds like you got it all worked out, so best wishes... __________________ "...after a while you get bored offering advice to a bull that like to keep butting the fence with its head rather than walking through the open gate..." - Rebreather World PM Last edited by decoweenie : 7th June 2007 at 09:52.
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7th June 2007, 10:59	#25 (permalink)
wearypanda New Member Current Rebreather/s: Pelagian Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Pelagian Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Wiltshire, UK Posts: 90	Re: Recommendation On Rebreather Have you considered taking a look at the Pelagian? This is a manual CCR, made (relatively) close to you in Thailand. It is a very compact unit, superbly well designed and engineered, with excellent scrubber capacity/duration and is available with an ultra compact BOV. www.rebreatherlab.com I originally intended to go eCCR, in fact I had put a deposit on an Evolution. After alot of research (thank you Rebreather World) and careful consideration I decided to do down the manual route for a number of reasons. I ended up choosing between the COPIS Meg and the Pelagian. In the end I decided to go with the Pelagian and recently completed MOD1. I am delighted with the Pelagian and would recommend anyone in the market for a CCR to take a good look at it. Good luck, whichever route you decide on.
(Offline)

7th June 2007, 15:32	#26 (permalink)
Gill Envy Shearwater Copis Diver Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Evolution Other CCR Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: seattle Posts: 1,302	Re: Recommendation On Rebreather I'd like to start another thread for this debate as I want to make sure i'm considering all the angles before making my final decision, but i'm feeling bad about hijacking this one. so keep your eyes peeled and please jump in. g Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie) I have, just make sure that you do. We just have different views. Anyway, sounds like you got it all worked out, so best wishes... __________________ Gill Envy ...Because I wasn't born with gills! ><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>
(Offline)

7th June 2007, 15:37	#27 (permalink)
Gill Envy Shearwater Copis Diver Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Evolution Other CCR Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: seattle Posts: 1,302	Re: Recommendation On Rebreather the palagian design, as it comes stock with only 2 cells and an option for a third for deco and mental voting logic is one of my sources of my current thinking. if rebreather lab were as close to my house as ISC, and I could get my hands on one, it would be a lot more tempting. I'm looking forward to looking one over in person one of these days. Wearypanda, please do a write up on your experience. I realize you have probably only put a few hours on it but still, it would be great to hear a first hand account of your experience, of the needle valve and pressure compensating first stage, in particular. It's a very intriguing design to me and a bit controversial. All in all, the palagian seems to be making the boldest steps in mCCR design modification. I'm very curious to see how it all plays out. g Quote: (Originally Posted by wearypanda) Have you considered taking a look at the Pelagian? This is a manual CCR, made (relatively) close to you in Thailand. It is a very compact unit, superbly well designed and engineered, with excellent scrubber capacity/duration and is available with an ultra compact BOV. www.rebreatherlab.com I originally intended to go eCCR, in fact I had put a deposit on an Evolution. After alot of research (thank you Rebreather World) and careful consideration I decided to do down the manual route for a number of reasons. I ended up choosing between the COPIS Meg and the Pelagian. In the end I decided to go with the Pelagian and recently completed MOD1. I am delighted with the Pelagian and would recommend anyone in the market for a CCR to take a good look at it. Good luck, whichever route you decide on. __________________ Gill Envy ...Because I wasn't born with gills! ><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>
(Offline)

7th June 2007, 16:32	#28 (permalink)
Mark Chase I go down for ages Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kent Posts: 2,558	Re: Recommendation On Rebreather Quote: (Originally Posted by sotongking) Hi All, I'm planning to take up rebreather but I have mixed comments on these two and I don't know will I get flamed for this? Of the two (Megalodon & Inspiration Vision), which one is most recommended in terms of life span, maintenance and user-friendliness? Thanks! Am i right in thinking its not that easy to get things sent back to the UK for repair from Singapore? If so, my advice would be to keep it a simple as possible and of your two chosen units, go for the Meg. This is purely on the basis that a pure set point controller unit has less to go wrong than a complex deco temp stick all singing and dancing unit. From reading the posts on here the Meg has more DIY repair potential than the Vision. Personally I have given up on electronics altogether and gone from a Classic latter to a Hammerhead and now i dive a MCCR (KISS). I am very pleased with it so far. ATB Mark Chase __________________ Is it supposed to make that noise ? I took my unit to the dive shop and demanded they bolt on every thing that would fit. Join my elite diving teem and get a Tshirt "Doing It Chasey"Hammerhead Eccr Advanced Diving System
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7th June 2007, 17:43	#29 (permalink)
Drmike Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Ouroboros Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,157	Re: Recommendation On Rebreather Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase) Am i right in thinking its not that easy to get things sent back to the UK for repair from Singapore? computer says nooooo __________________ Cave diving is a sport Wreck diving is a sport Diving in general is a sport 'Rebreather diving' is not a sport its the delusional obsession with a highly dangerous and often inappropriate piece of equipment
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