Another where do I start post....

vulcan

I'm going to fire off a load of questions here quite wildly and hope that you are able to help me here.

Firstly I have been tempted by the whole Rebreather idea for a while but had the temptation changed to "want one now" a few days ago after trying an Evolution for the first time. Having seen mainly yellow boxes around it's easy to believe they are "the" rebreather of choice, or is it that they just seem to be the only current mass produced and consequently readily available ones? Once you look in to it there are a few models to consider, and if you are looking to purchase there almost seems too many to choose from, with different functions and aimed for different types of diving, or do I just not understand?

One of the things I didn't like about the Evolution was the clutter accross my front (mentioned in other posts) and wondered if a model with the counterlungs on the back have any advantages/disadvantages? Is the choice limited, I saw a submatix with lungs in the back and CMIIW but I think the Ororubus(?) does to, are there others.

If it helps with your advice, I'm looking to work toward a trip to Truk/Bikini/USS Sarratoga in the 2 to 3 years after completing Mod 1, gradually working on up the experience ladder and further training with this as a goal.

I know it's an often asked question, but where do you start with choice of kit. Is it worth the 12 month wait for an APD unit? Is it worth the extra dosh for an Ororobus? What are the other units of comparable reputation and quality (Meg, KISS, Submatix, Bio Marine et al?)

All help/advice greatfully received as I feel like I'm suffering with information overload

__________________
"Blessed are they who learn from their mistakes. For they shall make, if not necessarily fewer of them, different and more interesting ones."

Martin

Mark Chase

The "Oribleness" from Mr Gurr is a fantastic CCR in just about every way except transportation. In this area its one of the worst on the market.

The YBOD is a very good bit of kit but it also suffers from transportation issues and arguably the build quality of the mass market unit is not as good as some.

The Meg is the toy of choice. Built like a brick loo, transportable and apparently great to dive. Its only down side is the 7K price tag for the full T-mix SherewaterHUD version and the fact it hasn’t got UK cover YET but Custom Divers are awaiting CE clearance I believe.

Back mounted counterlungs struggle to pass the CE required breathing test. Arguably the test is for firemen climbing ladders and not divers so you can take your pick as to whether or not that’s important.

You do get used to the front clutter and there are ways to avoid it / make it better.

I dived the EVO and thought it was fantastic. Its small and relatively easy to transport and its much cheaper than the Meg. Arguably its not best suited to 70m+ diving but there are many ways around that.

ATB

Mark Chase

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Andy M

Lets not forget the Sport KISS. 2.5K for a complete Rebreather. No front clutter. backmount CLs - really, you do not notice any resistance in the water if your trim is correct.

Andy

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Know your PO2 at all times

ROB DAVIE

Martin,

As I said in my welcome post: "Feel free to ask questions!" and I see that you have asked the very question that is guaranteed to create a lot of mail for you!

Everyone here has their favourite, and will be glad to bend your ear at length about why his or her pet is THE best. The various manufacturers would be in a bad way if there were only ONE best way to do things!

You are going to have to get yourself a piece of paper and a pen, and put down some thoughts to guide your search for the right unit for you.

Ask yourself, what kind of diving do you do to the largest extent? Do you find yourself doing 70-80 metre bimbles, or do you find yourself below 100 metres all the time?

Do you penetrate wrecks and caves a lot, or do you do all open-water work?

All of the above will lead to questions about where one attaches the feed to the bail-out bottle, and how do I sling my argon bottle, and stage tins?

Of course, a very important consideration is that of exactly how much travelling do you expect to do with the unit? As a professional traveller who has done literally millions of "bag drags", I can tell you that this is a consideration that cannot be minimized! Attention must be paid to the form factor of the unit.

If you will be travelling a lot, the parts availability situation becomes a real consideration.

There was some discussion recently about the APD machines, and some sneering about them being "Volkswagens". Of course, the point was completely missed that there are a LOT of Volkswagens out there. This means that you have a better chance of finding spare parts for them at some of your more distant dive destinations, than you would the bits for rarer machines.

I have been on the ground in far distant places waiting for a part to be flown in, and 48 hours can seem like an eternity.

Of course, let us not forget the most important question of all. Can I afford the latest and greatest, like the Witchcraft 1? Or, not having piles of cubic wonga available to splash about, will I have to be more "reasonable" in my choices?

So, time to settle in with a fresh application of your adult beverage of choice, your pen, and...let's make that SEVERAL pieces of paper...and DO THAT HOMEWORK!

Cheers!

Rob

__________________
[SIZE=2]"CC Rebreathers will become a viable part of tech diving [U]WHEN PIGS FLY[/U]!!"--GI3[/SIZE]

Philippe GERIN

Hi Martin,
Your Queen would say the "orubilis". Ok, Just a tentative of joke, bad one. Sorry.

Here is the reasoning I applied when I had to take the plunge.
1) Manual or electronic?
manual => Classic Kiss or Sport Kiss. If deeper dives => Classic. If usually max in the 50m range => Sport.
electronic = See 2)
2) UK or US?
A) Parts, service: all these can be solved if you have support locally or can take a trip to the manufacturer (Meg, Prism) and learn the how to about the basic servicing. Parts: get a spare complete kit in any case.
B) $$ or ££?
As long as the £ will be strong, US RBs will be an interesting buy.
C) CE or not? Dive Insurance provider? Legal, liability issues?
Depends on your country's regulation, if you're diving with a "public" (Dive clubs or Dive shops for example) structure or with your own boat and on your dive insurance plan (in case of accident).
For example, in France, only CE marked machines can officially be dived in Dive clubs and Dive shops. Dive Insurance plans suppose you follow these national rules, therefore you're "officially" stucked with CE marked, i.e. Inspo or Evo if you diving with that kind of structures. If you're diving independently with your boat... Then you do what you want, just check with your dive insurance provider if they accept that kind of Rebreather. Side note: same applies when you travel to France for diving! But check with the dive operator, they sometimes give you some slack on that issue as long as you've got the right kind of insurance (liability, medical...) and that you're certed on the unit.
In the UK, BSAC's rules. I don't know about it but I think they give you some slack there. Check on these and with your insurance provider.
D) Do you feel comfortable having a machine different from your buddy's? Example: they all have an Inspo and you get a Prism. They are less likely to help you under and above the water.
3) Do you fly a lot with your Rebreather?
Yes: YBOD or Boris aren't probably good choice.
4) Do you like to play with your toys or plan to dive it stock?
YBOD stock harness is known to be a poor performer. Evo stock harness seems better. Others: put your own easely. Otherwise you can always adapt something on the YBOD.

Bottom line: You make your choice because you're going to dive the unit. Not someone else. Get one that fullfill your needs from the begining and can grow with you. In this case, Boris is probably not the most appropriate but it will as a second Rebreather when you have logged a few hours on a CCR.

My 2 cents.
Best
Philippe

bubblefree

Martin

I have ordered an Evolution from SDS in the states. The reason I chose this unit over others was:
1. Unit is small and compact. Excellent for travel
2. Vision Electronics. This is a major upgrade to the old style electronics with the addition of a HUD and decompression computer. I haven't seen the Sheerwater electronics for the Meg, so can't make a comparison but the Vision system is excellent.
3. AP Diving is a major manufacturer of units. My thinking is that the more units that are out there, the easier it will be to get it serviced or repaired. I have heard some horror stories about how long units take to get repaired from other manufacturers. No disrespect to other manufacturers but being a small fish in a big pond isn't always a good way to survive.
4. CE rating. AP have done a lot of testing with these units to ensure they perform to both CE and navy criteria.
5. Ability to go past Mod 1 and onto tri-mix. Although the Evolution is not a machine to take you to super deep depths (buy an Oribilis if you want that) it still provides the ability to move from Mod 1 to other qualifications.

Hope this helps.

PS My descriptor is calling me a Real Rebreather World Expert!! Someone at RBW may want to switch that back to Newbie! I don't want to give the impression that I actually know what i'm talking about.

ROB DAVIE

Caveseeker7, the Administrator, has installed a Richard Pyle oriented set of designators, which are loosely aligned with Richard's description of himself as he progressed through the stages of Rebreather experience.

The "Pyle Title System":

first 49 posts: Real Rebreather World Expert
at 50 posts: Rebreather World Novice
at 200 posts: Rebreather World Beginner
at 500 posts: Rebreather World Weenie
at 1000+: Disciplined Rebreather World Survivor

__________________
[SIZE=2]"CC Rebreathers will become a viable part of tech diving [U]WHEN PIGS FLY[/U]!!"--GI3[/SIZE]

bubblefree

Rob

Thanks, thought something had changed but couldn't get my head round it. It's all crystal clear now.

Excellent way of looking at it!

vulcan

Thanks for the help so far.

This isn't getting any easier. I have the money put aside for the unit and the training so I 'd like to get this right first time.......or is that just wishful thinking ?

__________________
"Blessed are they who learn from their mistakes. For they shall make, if not necessarily fewer of them, different and more interesting ones."

Martin

silent running

Hello Martin the vulcan, I don't think it's unrealistic to get it right the first time.

And the best way to make the right choice is to have all the info.

Here's a suggestion; since you seem to be a wreck diver at heart, maybe start off with the issue of size and weight. Find out the exact dimensions of each unit and the weights, paying close attention to the depth and width of the unit as well as the size and weight of the head/scrubber assembly when it's broken down.

The dimensions are of course crucial to keeping your profile down so as not to get hung up on restrictions in a wreck. Ideally the weight of the scrubber/head should be light enough and small enough to fit in a carry on bag. Trust me, if you want to always arrive with your Rebreather and it's most fragile systems intact, you will be much better off carrying it with you on the plane if at all possible. Any decent dedicated case you might buy will be big, heavy and cost you extra baggage charges, and they'll still try to destroy the thing.

As fuel prices rise and airline profits drop, the baggage alowances will continue to shrink. Carry on weight is even begining to become an issue. I got my carry on bag containing my Prism weighed going to Singapore and I just barely got it ok'ed and it was only 30 lbs.

The official limit was 18 lbs. although they didn't weigh very many bags, so streamlining the bag and keeping it from looking heavy is crucial. As for OTS lungs or BM lungs, I don't think chest clutter is such an issue. No matter which you choose, you'll always have at least some chest straps and probably webbing/hardware for your stages. Having dived both types, I prefer OTS as a properly designed unit will have the lowest work of breathing in all positions.

And unless you never carry stage tanks and spend all your time in the water with your arms straight out ahead of you like superman, you will always have room for 3 or so inches of minimum loop volume OTS lungs. IMHO OTS lungs also keep the hoses closer to the head without restricting side to side head movement and further streamline your profile.

That being said, there are several very well designed BM lung Rebreather's out there and many wreck divers prefer them. But most of them are quite heavy and large making travel tough. But travel they do and I'm sure owners of the MK15.5'/16s and Ouroborous have ways of dealing with it. Anyway, get all the info. Not some of it, or most of it, get all of it and things will come clear. Good luck-

Andy