COPIS MEG and VR3 Deco

***EBT*** · 2nd January 2007, 18:44

Common housing and power supply. Beyond that I dont know enough to comment, Ron's done an article though

**Monkey** · 2nd January 2007, 20:29

Quote: (Originally Posted by EBT)

Common housing and power supply. Beyond that I dont know enough to comment, Ron's done an article though

Thanks.... that was exactly what I was looking for.

**wedivebc** · 2nd January 2007, 21:45

Quote: (Originally Posted by EBT)

Erm, minor point. The kiss handsets are FULLY redundant from each other, you cant get much more redundancy than that

I knew someone would point that out. I was trying to avoid saying this: When one display floods they all do. At least the couple that I have seen swimming in brown electrolyte.

But yes you are correct they do have a level of redundancy beyond the single battery of the copis.

***caveseeker7*** · 2nd January 2007, 23:11

Quote: (Originally Posted by wedivebc)

I knew someone would point that out. I was trying to avoid saying this: When one display floods they all do.

Three separate cables, three separate housings, three separate batteries.
Why would all three flood if one develops a leak?

***EBT*** · 2nd January 2007, 23:25

Quote: (Originally Posted by caveseeker7)

Three separate cables, three separate housings, three separate batteries.
Why would all three flood if one develops a leak?

One common point; the user

Steve · 2nd January 2007, 23:29

Quote: (Originally Posted by EBT)

One common point; the user

You know Zak, you are a clever man. Top of the class for that gem

scubagrunt · 3rd January 2007, 07:07

Quote: (Originally Posted by robvdmr13)

What about using a plumbed in Shearwater GF and HUD? That gives triple redundancy and deco info.

Robert

Without opening a huge can of worms here, IMHO i think the Shearwater and HUD on the COPIS is an excellent choice. Soon the meg HUD will be ready too. Either way you will end up with redudancy. However with the Shearwater you get deco info too. Call or email Bruce he is working on cables for the shearwater for the COPIS. It will be very easy to install.

RonMicjan · 3rd January 2007, 08:19

couple points:

yes, the copis has one handset and one battery pack. However, the batterys are lasting around 3 months turned on 24/7 and you will get plenty of warning prior to the batteries failing, first the backlights go out, then you get several more days, then the low battery indicator comes on, and another few days...so if you manage to have the batterys die during a dive, you are irretrivably stupid and get what you deserve : )

ISC is also working on a single cell holder for those dive computer 4th cell plug in's, Delta P is also working on one. ISC's will tap into a second ADV port installed in the inhale counterlung, Delta P's will fit at the top of the head, between the head and inhale hose.

ISC does not recommend parallel wiring the existing 3 cells to an offboard dive computer. this does not add redundancy, just the ability of the dive computer to pull down the copis display, should it fail, or the cable flood. this is a bad idea, whether with a shearwater or any other system.

the copis HUD, when it is finished, will be a redundant system, but still running off the same 3 cells, similar to the apecs two board, two power supply redundancy. the isolation will come from the op amps, preventing a handset flood from pulling the hud down and vice versa. It will have its own battery pack.

If one is dilligent in keeping the units SP at or slightly above the dive computers SP, the need for real time deco is non existant. The only reason to tie the loop into the computer (with the additional failure points, extra sensor, cable, connector,) is for the redundancy. both my explorer, and my VR3 had the fischer connector corrode and stop sending data. this required me to reprogram the computer underwater to ignore the input, so why bother? fisher connectors suck, end of story.

***jradomski*** · 3rd January 2007, 08:49

Quote: (Originally Posted by RonMicjan)

couple points:

ISC does not recommend parallel wiring the existing 3 cells to an offboard dive computer. this does not add redundancy, just the ability of the dive computer to pull down the copis display, should it fail, or the cable flood. this is a bad idea, whether with a shearwater or any other system.

the copis HUD, when it is finished, will be a redundant system, but still running off the same 3 cells, similar to the apecs two board, two power supply redundancy. the isolation will come from the op amps, preventing a handset flood from pulling the hud down and vice versa. It will have its own battery pack.
.

Agree, but powered op ams are not needed for isolation, in fact they can potentiall be a failure point in themselves.. They are needed for secondary isolation.. This arrangement is OK when both sets of electronics are housed in the same module, since external problems (other than a power/display failure) effecting one and not the other are improbable.. We would most likely be in a double failure here anyway..

The best way to isolate cells is the point closest to the cells using a resistor divider network used on RBs like the MK15 and OEM packages like the HH (I think the prism does it this way also but I'm not sure)..

This prevents any short or voltage in one cable from effecting the other..

I definately thing paralleling onto cells is a bad idea if one is doing it for redundancy.. If its done on a system with no redundancy and is just being ised for additional info I suppose its acceptable since it is no worse.. but it definately does not increase reducnancy..

Now adding this type of device onto a system that already has redundancy, like say a HH (I only use this example because the seperate port makes it easy), is a BAD idea since now a failure on this parallel device can take out both the primary AND secondary...

***jradomski*** · 3rd January 2007, 09:46

Quote: (Originally Posted by RonMicjan)

couple points:

If one is dilligent in keeping the units SP at or slightly above the dive computers SP, the need for real time deco is non existant. The only reason to tie the loop into the computer (with the additional failure points, extra sensor, cable, connector,) is for the redundancy. both my explorer, and my VR3 had the fischer connector corrode and stop sending data. this required me to reprogram the computer underwater to ignore the input, so why bother? fisher connectors suck, end of story.

Fischer connectors aren;t that bad when they are properly cared for.. The problem is they require care.. The biggest thing is making sure you don't get the slighest scratch on the plug end.. When not in use the plug must have a cap on it..

The oring must remain properly lubricated but not toomuch lubricant..

The best preventative I have found for fischer connectors is to put a few drops of minerail oil in the connector then plug it in.. This prevents any change of water ever entering the conector to corrode or short it..

Another thing that really helps on the plug end is when the connectoris being assembled is to use zero cure RTV (KJ does this on the cables he sells) since the cable and pins cure in this there is no way for water to enter and corrode the cable side..

2nd January 2007, 18:44	#11 (permalink)
*EBT* Apprentice Luddite Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: UK, Brighton Posts: 2,111	Re: COPIS MEG and VR3 Deco Common housing and power supply. Beyond that I dont know enough to comment, Ron's done an article though __________________ Eagles May Soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines! RBW Terms of service
(Offline)

2nd January 2007, 20:29	#12 (permalink)
Monkey Supporting Member Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Lauderdale By The Sea Florida Posts: 338	Re: COPIS MEG and VR3 Deco Quote: (Originally Posted by EBT) Common housing and power supply. Beyond that I dont know enough to comment, Ron's done an article though Thanks.... that was exactly what I was looking for.
(Offline)

2nd January 2007, 21:45	#13 (permalink)
wedivebc Dave Tomblin Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Other CCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Vancouver Island BC Canada Posts: 1,508	Re: COPIS MEG and VR3 Deco Quote: (Originally Posted by EBT) Erm, minor point. The kiss handsets are FULLY redundant from each other, you cant get much more redundancy than that I knew someone would point that out. I was trying to avoid saying this: When one display floods they all do. At least the couple that I have seen swimming in brown electrolyte. But yes you are correct they do have a level of redundancy beyond the single battery of the copis. __________________ Cheers, Dave.... Man is the only animal burdened with the knowledge he will eventually die
(Offline)

2nd January 2007, 23:11	#14 (permalink)
*caveseeker7* Who loves ya, baby Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Too far from Neverland Posts: 5,556	Re: COPIS MEG and VR3 Deco Quote: (Originally Posted by wedivebc) I knew someone would point that out. I was trying to avoid saying this: When one display floods they all do. Three separate cables, three separate housings, three separate batteries. Why would all three flood if one develops a leak? __________________ Cheers Stefan "Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.!"
(Offline)

2nd January 2007, 23:25	#15 (permalink)
*EBT* Apprentice Luddite Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: UK, Brighton Posts: 2,111	Re: COPIS MEG and VR3 Deco Quote: (Originally Posted by caveseeker7) Three separate cables, three separate housings, three separate batteries. Why would all three flood if one develops a leak? One common point; the user __________________ Eagles May Soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines! RBW Terms of service
(Offline)

2nd January 2007, 23:29	#16 (permalink)
Steve Ladies bring a plate Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Classic Kiss MK 15.X Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Perth - Australia Posts: 1,126	Re: COPIS MEG and VR3 Deco Quote: (Originally Posted by EBT) One common point; the user You know Zak, you are a clever man. Top of the class for that gem __________________ WARNING: I contain occasional coarse language, extreme sexual references, nudity, and adult themes, which may offend some people - Usually churchy types.
(Online)

3rd January 2007, 07:07	#17 (permalink)
scubagrunt CCR Diva Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Megalodon Classic Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Other SCR Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Inspiration Classic Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Sport Kiss Classic Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Other SCR Join Date: May 2005 Location: Washington Posts: 441	Re: COPIS MEG and VR3 Deco Quote: (Originally Posted by robvdmr13) What about using a plumbed in Shearwater GF and HUD? That gives triple redundancy and deco info. Robert Without opening a huge can of worms here, IMHO i think the Shearwater and HUD on the COPIS is an excellent choice. Soon the meg HUD will be ready too. Either way you will end up with redudancy. However with the Shearwater you get deco info too. Call or email Bruce he is working on cables for the shearwater for the COPIS. It will be very easy to install. __________________ "No good deed goes unpunished!" www.silentscuba.com
(Offline)

3rd January 2007, 08:19	#18 (permalink)
RonMicjan Cap Ron scourge of the NW Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Dolphin Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Classic Kiss Dolphin Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cape Disapointment, The Graveyard of the Pacific Posts: 1,120	Re: COPIS MEG and VR3 Deco couple points: yes, the copis has one handset and one battery pack. However, the batterys are lasting around 3 months turned on 24/7 and you will get plenty of warning prior to the batteries failing, first the backlights go out, then you get several more days, then the low battery indicator comes on, and another few days...so if you manage to have the batterys die during a dive, you are irretrivably stupid and get what you deserve : ) ISC is also working on a single cell holder for those dive computer 4th cell plug in's, Delta P is also working on one. ISC's will tap into a second ADV port installed in the inhale counterlung, Delta P's will fit at the top of the head, between the head and inhale hose. ISC does not recommend parallel wiring the existing 3 cells to an offboard dive computer. this does not add redundancy, just the ability of the dive computer to pull down the copis display, should it fail, or the cable flood. this is a bad idea, whether with a shearwater or any other system. the copis HUD, when it is finished, will be a redundant system, but still running off the same 3 cells, similar to the apecs two board, two power supply redundancy. the isolation will come from the op amps, preventing a handset flood from pulling the hud down and vice versa. It will have its own battery pack. If one is dilligent in keeping the units SP at or slightly above the dive computers SP, the need for real time deco is non existant. The only reason to tie the loop into the computer (with the additional failure points, extra sensor, cable, connector,) is for the redundancy. both my explorer, and my VR3 had the fischer connector corrode and stop sending data. this required me to reprogram the computer underwater to ignore the input, so why bother? fisher connectors suck, end of story. __________________ Marine rescue, towing and salvage. Interfering with natural selection since 1983. www.tmishop.com Diving bits etc. www.seatowpdx.com The Summer Job Last edited by RonMicjan : 3rd January 2007 at 08:27.
(Offline)

3rd January 2007, 08:49	#19 (permalink)
*jradomski* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx Posts: 3,113	Re: COPIS MEG and VR3 Deco Quote: (Originally Posted by RonMicjan) couple points: ISC does not recommend parallel wiring the existing 3 cells to an offboard dive computer. this does not add redundancy, just the ability of the dive computer to pull down the copis display, should it fail, or the cable flood. this is a bad idea, whether with a shearwater or any other system. the copis HUD, when it is finished, will be a redundant system, but still running off the same 3 cells, similar to the apecs two board, two power supply redundancy. the isolation will come from the op amps, preventing a handset flood from pulling the hud down and vice versa. It will have its own battery pack. . Agree, but powered op ams are not needed for isolation, in fact they can potentiall be a failure point in themselves.. They are needed for secondary isolation.. This arrangement is OK when both sets of electronics are housed in the same module, since external problems (other than a power/display failure) effecting one and not the other are improbable.. We would most likely be in a double failure here anyway.. The best way to isolate cells is the point closest to the cells using a resistor divider network used on RBs like the MK15 and OEM packages like the HH (I think the prism does it this way also but I'm not sure).. This prevents any short or voltage in one cable from effecting the other.. I definately thing paralleling onto cells is a bad idea if one is doing it for redundancy.. If its done on a system with no redundancy and is just being ised for additional info I suppose its acceptable since it is no worse.. but it definately does not increase reducnancy.. Now adding this type of device onto a system that already has redundancy, like say a HH (I only use this example because the seperate port makes it easy), is a BAD idea since now a failure on this parallel device can take out both the primary AND secondary... __________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated. Last edited by jradomski : 3rd January 2007 at 08:55.
(Offline)

3rd January 2007, 09:46	#20 (permalink)
*jradomski* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx Posts: 3,113	Re: COPIS MEG and VR3 Deco Quote: (Originally Posted by RonMicjan) couple points: If one is dilligent in keeping the units SP at or slightly above the dive computers SP, the need for real time deco is non existant. The only reason to tie the loop into the computer (with the additional failure points, extra sensor, cable, connector,) is for the redundancy. both my explorer, and my VR3 had the fischer connector corrode and stop sending data. this required me to reprogram the computer underwater to ignore the input, so why bother? fisher connectors suck, end of story. Fischer connectors aren;t that bad when they are properly cared for.. The problem is they require care.. The biggest thing is making sure you don't get the slighest scratch on the plug end.. When not in use the plug must have a cap on it.. The oring must remain properly lubricated but not toomuch lubricant.. The best preventative I have found for fischer connectors is to put a few drops of minerail oil in the connector then plug it in.. This prevents any change of water ever entering the conector to corrode or short it.. Another thing that really helps on the plug end is when the connectoris being assembled is to use zero cure RTV (KJ does this on the cables he sells) since the cable and pins cure in this there is no way for water to enter and corrode the cable side.. __________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated.
(Offline)

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode