COPIS v Kiss Classic

dgschott · 12th December 2006, 14:23

On a Meg, I don't see a 'complete flood' really happening aside from a MAJOR failure.... But - on long dives I have been on - I have turned my head, or been doing things where I have let my mouthpeice slip, and sometime some substantial water within the loop - It's an easy flush out on the meg.

Quote: (Originally Posted by paulraymaekers)

YES!!! :-)

and to my opinion, the recovery from a complete flood...
com'on guy's, how many times did you have to do that???

paul

gathan · 12th December 2006, 15:24

Quote: (Originally Posted by paulraymaekers)

YES!!! :-)

and to my opinion, the recovery from a complete flood...
com'on guy's, how many times did you have to do that???
(I 1 time in the last 300 dives, because I was testing a new 'O-ring concept' :-) did not work-out that good :-)

regards

paul

Personally, never, in over 21 years of diving RBs.

Andre

Ben Field · 12th December 2006, 16:03

A trivial element to add- what do your buddies dive?

If OC well then the choice really is yours. If you have 8 Meg buddies the COPIS might be your weapon of choice instead as they can be called on for advice and spare

.... mind you that could be an equally strong argument for getting a CK so you can give them the collective single finger salute

Both seem to be cracking units, I got a CK as I saw it as 100% user servicable, I don't ever forsee having to send it back to Jetsam, a plus living in the UK! Although I am sure they would do a fantastic job (as always) chances are I can fix it with dental floss, cheese wire and duct tape so there is no need.

BEN

onetime · 12th December 2006, 16:07

Quote: (Originally Posted by Ben Field)

...chances are I can fix it with dental floss, cheese wire and duct tape so there is no need.

BEN

sometimes you also need superglue and a small piece of tubing (those with the old style ADV pins will know what I'm talking about).

viscya · 12th December 2006, 16:18

Quote: (Originally Posted by dgschott)

On a Meg, I don't see a 'complete flood' really happening aside from a MAJOR failure.... But - on long dives I have been on - I have turned my head, or been doing things where I have let my mouthpeice slip, and sometime some substantial water within the loop - It's an easy flush out on the meg.

That type of flood can be cleared on a Kiss also. I had a mouth piece leak on me. As long as the water is still in the exhale hose, it is easy to clear.

RonMicjan · 12th December 2006, 17:03

and now, direct from the ISC price list, the real deal on what the copis costs and what comes with...and without further adoo...
4. COPIS Meg: The constant oxygen injection system (COPIS) is a non electronic driven system. The COPIS Meg is a Diver/operator manual oxygen addition system with a constant oxygen pressure first stage that injects through an orifice system a .69 liter per minute (or more) of oxygen for the diver. The system is popular with CCR divers that want electronic simplicity but the full build quality and capability of the Meg.
The COPIS Meg complete is equipped as Meg #1 option, COPIS Meg stripped is equipped as Meg #2 option. The COPIS does not come with a HUD. Both options may come with a mini or full Meg gas plenum canister. The stripped COPIS does come with a APEX DS4 first stage. Prices: COPIS Meg complete MSRP $6,169.00 USD; COPIS Meg stripped MSRP $5690.00 USD. Preliminary Pricing.

and, just so you know what comes with meg option #1

1. Megalodon complete:1000 Denier Cordura counter lungs, breathing hose assembly, 5.5lb axial scrubber canister, APECS electronics, stainless steel single tank adapter, non anodized Aluminum back plate w/Hogarth harness/crotch strap, LP hoses,19 cuft/2.6 liter, 3 AL 3000 PSI/207 BAR cylinders, pro valves, HP gauges (your choice of PSI or BAR), 1st.stages, Auto Demand valve (ADV, Heads up display (HUD), Mixed gas bypass(MGB)w/spare hose, Dust caps, Hat, Spare Cylinder stickers, Helmet logo sticker, MSRP $8,153.00
Note: The Meg does not come with any cylinder mounting systems unless requested.
Note 2: Cylinders and valves will not be sold to European countries that have different cylinder requirements. Cylinders and valves meet US and Canadian DOT specifications.
2. Megalodon stripped: 1000 Denier Cordura counter lungs, breathing hose assembly, 5.5lb axial scrubber canister, APECS electronics, stainless steel single tank adapter, LP hoses. ADV, HUD, MGB w/spare hose. MSRP $7,708.00

any questions???

Marc T · 12th December 2006, 17:04

Quote: (Originally Posted by scubagrunt)

Not to confuse thing because I love both units, but the kiss is more user in the field serviceable if you have and issue. If you get a copis and two heads (i.e. 2 copis heads or a copis and apecs head) then it is almost invincible too. The BOV on the kiss is excellent for safety. But the copis like the meg has the high flow ADV which means a proper diluent flush will change the loop gas almost instantaneously and this too is a huge safety feature. Back mounted CLs of the kiss are excellent for a non-clutter front and streamlining. But the OTS of the meg offers all kinds of flood protection, and options for off-board gas additions. In saying that you can with small mods add off board gas to the kiss too. Finally you can also add OTS to the kiss later on, but this will bring the cost up over the copis meg in the end.
Regardless of your choice the Shearwater and Shearwater HUD is available for both units and I highly recommend this upgrade.
Good luck and keep asking those questions.
mel

Im sure that sooner or later we will see something in the Rebreather market named "kit-breather" or something like that, that you can CHOOSE to dive OTS or rear mounted CL and why not mCCR or eCCR.
IMHO its easier to turn copis in backmounted CL than CK into efficient OTS CL ( regarding to recovering the loop ), the design of the Kiss's head drive water directly in the scrubber...but is it an issue? YOU have your own answer

Just wait

dgschott · 12th December 2006, 17:29

Quote: (Originally Posted by RonMicjan)

any questions???

Of Course! Is it possible to add a HUD to the COPIS Meg?

Dutchy · 12th December 2006, 18:21

Quote: (Originally Posted by Marc T)

the design of the Kiss's head drive water directly in the scrubber...but is it an issue? YOU have your own answer

Just wait

I don't think it is an issue on the Classic Kiss it is and issue on the Sport Kiss but then again how often does it happen, and how bad is it.

YES it becomes an issue when diving alpine style but then again who does? I'd consider other arguments as well such as...

1) Do you want to travel? (Weight and size comparison)
2) Do you want to travel? (Can you easily use different tank sizes and valve models?)
3) Servicability both in the field and at home. I'd opt for a Rebreather taking regular penlite batteries but unfortunately neither supports that

4) Buck for bang... make a fair comparison. If you think you don't need a bov buy a KISS without or alternatively calculate for BOV and meg. When you calculate calculate for both the Rebreather AND the training. You might be surprised. Not only the cost of the course may differ but expense for travel and lodging may make a substancial difference.
5) Impact of failure... the water in loop has been emphasized here. What about other failures? Battery? Cable?
6) Anything else YOU think is important. Some here are so in love with their unit that they take some of the negatives for granted but your situation and intended use may lead to another decission.

gl

***caveseeker7*** · 12th December 2006, 19:34

Quote: (Originally Posted by dgschott)

Of Course! Is it possible to add a HUD to the COPIS Meg?

In stock configuration the COPIS has one handset (pO2 monitor) and one battery pack that supplies the power. Pics in my NEC Show report.

The HUD is an option that adds an electronic box and a second battery box and of course the HUD itself. As it uses the Smithers code to convey the setpoint that will give you redundancy.

12th December 2006, 14:23	#31 (permalink)
dgschott Liquid Productions, LLC Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Aston, PA Posts: 115	Re: COPIS v Kiss Classic On a Meg, I don't see a 'complete flood' really happening aside from a MAJOR failure.... But - on long dives I have been on - I have turned my head, or been doing things where I have let my mouthpeice slip, and sometime some substantial water within the loop - It's an easy flush out on the meg. Quote: (Originally Posted by paulraymaekers) YES!!! :-) and to my opinion, the recovery from a complete flood... com'on guy's, how many times did you have to do that??? paul __________________ David Schott Liquid Productions, LLC
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12th December 2006, 15:24	#32 (permalink)
gathan MixedGas Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other SCR Other Rebreather/s: Other SCR Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Tottenham, Ontario, Canada Posts: 194	Re: COPIS v Kiss Classic Quote: (Originally Posted by paulraymaekers) YES!!! :-) and to my opinion, the recovery from a complete flood... com'on guy's, how many times did you have to do that??? (I 1 time in the last 300 dives, because I was testing a new 'O-ring concept' :-) did not work-out that good :-) regards paul Personally, never, in over 21 years of diving RBs. Andre
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12th December 2006, 16:03	#33 (permalink)
Ben Field CK+Shearwater Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: London, England Posts: 1,621	Re: COPIS v Kiss Classic A trivial element to add- what do your buddies dive? If OC well then the choice really is yours. If you have 8 Meg buddies the COPIS might be your weapon of choice instead as they can be called on for advice and spare .... mind you that could be an equally strong argument for getting a CK so you can give them the collective single finger salute Both seem to be cracking units, I got a CK as I saw it as 100% user servicable, I don't ever forsee having to send it back to Jetsam, a plus living in the UK! Although I am sure they would do a fantastic job (as always) chances are I can fix it with dental floss, cheese wire and duct tape so there is no need. BEN __________________ Know your PPO2, Pre-breath, Use checklists, Validate cells at 6mtrs, Use pure O2 at or near surface, Use a BOV, Don't dive Solo, Change Slime and Cells as recommended by Manufacturer and RTFM! Beware Fridge Suck! www.hugsac.org.uk
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12th December 2006, 16:07	#34 (permalink)
onetime Classic KISSer #138 Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: US, NJ Posts: 673	Re: COPIS v Kiss Classic Quote: (Originally Posted by Ben Field) ...chances are I can fix it with dental floss, cheese wire and duct tape so there is no need. BEN sometimes you also need superglue and a small piece of tubing (those with the old style ADV pins will know what I'm talking about).
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12th December 2006, 16:18	#35 (permalink)
viscya Wrecking Crew Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Marlton New Jersey Posts: 138	Re: COPIS v Kiss Classic Quote: (Originally Posted by dgschott) On a Meg, I don't see a 'complete flood' really happening aside from a MAJOR failure.... But - on long dives I have been on - I have turned my head, or been doing things where I have let my mouthpeice slip, and sometime some substantial water within the loop - It's an easy flush out on the meg. That type of flood can be cleared on a Kiss also. I had a mouth piece leak on me. As long as the water is still in the exhale hose, it is easy to clear. __________________ "There is nothing majestic or dignified about being left to silently rot and collapse under heaps of old fishing net forgotten and unappreciated in dark and unvisited waters." DrMike
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12th December 2006, 17:03	#36 (permalink)
RonMicjan Cap Ron scourge of the NW Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Dolphin Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Classic Kiss Dolphin Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cape Disapointment, The Graveyard of the Pacific Posts: 1,100	Re: COPIS v Kiss Classic and now, direct from the ISC price list, the real deal on what the copis costs and what comes with...and without further adoo... 4. COPIS Meg: The constant oxygen injection system (COPIS) is a non electronic driven system. The COPIS Meg is a Diver/operator manual oxygen addition system with a constant oxygen pressure first stage that injects through an orifice system a .69 liter per minute (or more) of oxygen for the diver. The system is popular with CCR divers that want electronic simplicity but the full build quality and capability of the Meg. The COPIS Meg complete is equipped as Meg #1 option, COPIS Meg stripped is equipped as Meg #2 option. The COPIS does not come with a HUD. Both options may come with a mini or full Meg gas plenum canister. The stripped COPIS does come with a APEX DS4 first stage. Prices: COPIS Meg complete MSRP $6,169.00 USD; COPIS Meg stripped MSRP $5690.00 USD. Preliminary Pricing. and, just so you know what comes with meg option #1 1. Megalodon complete:1000 Denier Cordura counter lungs, breathing hose assembly, 5.5lb axial scrubber canister, APECS electronics, stainless steel single tank adapter, non anodized Aluminum back plate w/Hogarth harness/crotch strap, LP hoses,19 cuft/2.6 liter, 3 AL 3000 PSI/207 BAR cylinders, pro valves, HP gauges (your choice of PSI or BAR), 1st.stages, Auto Demand valve (ADV, Heads up display (HUD), Mixed gas bypass(MGB)w/spare hose, Dust caps, Hat, Spare Cylinder stickers, Helmet logo sticker, MSRP $8,153.00 Note: The Meg does not come with any cylinder mounting systems unless requested. Note 2: Cylinders and valves will not be sold to European countries that have different cylinder requirements. Cylinders and valves meet US and Canadian DOT specifications. 2. Megalodon stripped: 1000 Denier Cordura counter lungs, breathing hose assembly, 5.5lb axial scrubber canister, APECS electronics, stainless steel single tank adapter, LP hoses. ADV, HUD, MGB w/spare hose. MSRP $7,708.00 any questions??? __________________ Marine rescue, towing and salvage. Interfering with natural selection since 1983. www.tmishop.com Diving bits etc. www.seatowpdx.com The Summer Job
(Offline)

12th December 2006, 17:04	#37 (permalink)
Marc T hell is in the details Current Rebreather/s: RB80 / Clone Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet RB80 / Clone Home Build Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: FRANCE Carcassonne Posts: 485	Re: COPIS v Kiss Classic Quote: (Originally Posted by scubagrunt) Not to confuse thing because I love both units, but the kiss is more user in the field serviceable if you have and issue. If you get a copis and two heads (i.e. 2 copis heads or a copis and apecs head) then it is almost invincible too. The BOV on the kiss is excellent for safety. But the copis like the meg has the high flow ADV which means a proper diluent flush will change the loop gas almost instantaneously and this too is a huge safety feature. Back mounted CLs of the kiss are excellent for a non-clutter front and streamlining. But the OTS of the meg offers all kinds of flood protection, and options for off-board gas additions. In saying that you can with small mods add off board gas to the kiss too. Finally you can also add OTS to the kiss later on, but this will bring the cost up over the copis meg in the end. Regardless of your choice the Shearwater and Shearwater HUD is available for both units and I highly recommend this upgrade. Good luck and keep asking those questions. mel Im sure that sooner or later we will see something in the Rebreather market named "kit-breather" or something like that, that you can CHOOSE to dive OTS or rear mounted CL and why not mCCR or eCCR. IMHO its easier to turn copis in backmounted CL than CK into efficient OTS CL ( regarding to recovering the loop ), the design of the Kiss's head drive water directly in the scrubber...but is it an issue? YOU have your own answer Just wait
(Online)

12th December 2006, 17:29	#38 (permalink)
dgschott Liquid Productions, LLC Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Aston, PA Posts: 115	Re: COPIS v Kiss Classic Quote: (Originally Posted by RonMicjan) any questions??? Of Course! Is it possible to add a HUD to the COPIS Meg? __________________ David Schott Liquid Productions, LLC
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12th December 2006, 18:21	#39 (permalink)
Dutchy Rene Warries Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Nieuwegein (The Netherlands) Posts: 768	Re: COPIS v Kiss Classic Quote: (Originally Posted by Marc T) the design of the Kiss's head drive water directly in the scrubber...but is it an issue? YOU have your own answer Just wait I don't think it is an issue on the Classic Kiss it is and issue on the Sport Kiss but then again how often does it happen, and how bad is it. YES it becomes an issue when diving alpine style but then again who does? I'd consider other arguments as well such as... 1) Do you want to travel? (Weight and size comparison) 2) Do you want to travel? (Can you easily use different tank sizes and valve models?) 3) Servicability both in the field and at home. I'd opt for a Rebreather taking regular penlite batteries but unfortunately neither supports that 4) Buck for bang... make a fair comparison. If you think you don't need a bov buy a KISS without or alternatively calculate for BOV and meg. When you calculate calculate for both the Rebreather AND the training. You might be surprised. Not only the cost of the course may differ but expense for travel and lodging may make a substancial difference. 5) Impact of failure... the water in loop has been emphasized here. What about other failures? Battery? Cable? 6) Anything else YOU think is important. Some here are so in love with their unit that they take some of the negatives for granted but your situation and intended use may lead to another decission. gl __________________ = This post is environmentally friendly. It is composed of 100% recycled electrons only. =
(Online)

12th December 2006, 19:34	#40 (permalink)
*caveseeker7* Who loves ya, baby Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Too far from Neverland Posts: 5,451	Re: COPIS v Kiss Classic Quote: (Originally Posted by dgschott) Of Course! Is it possible to add a HUD to the COPIS Meg? In stock configuration the COPIS has one handset (pO2 monitor) and one battery pack that supplies the power. Pics in my NEC Show report. The HUD is an option that adds an electronic box and a second battery box and of course the HUD itself. As it uses the Smithers code to convey the setpoint that will give you redundancy. __________________ Cheers Stefan "Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.!"
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