a whole new dimension and opinion on Rebreather diving

wannabe · 1st November 2006, 14:47

Hello everyone,

My name is Derek and this thread is not meant to flame anyone using the various rebreathers available.

A little bit about myself, I use a Meg rebreather and lately found out that the reg provided by scubpro(MK2) is not supported by any authorised agent in Singapore esp the 100% cleaned O2 cleaned( where I lived and dived).

I managed to track down a veteran Rebreather diver in Singapore who agreed to help me with the servicing of the reg 1st stage, abeit generic parts.

When he found out that I use a meg, he told me about the dangers of full electronic CCR and the people who died using it, namely Fred Evans and then IANTD no 2 who died using inspiration Rebreather amongst other high profile divers using eCCRs who perished.

Although he uses a KISS Rebreather, I felt disappointed that as a RB diver, at no time did he support the sport. Instead he felt compelled to point out the statistics of accidents of the eCCR divers.

Clearly he does not support the sport as a whole as to my understanding, people who use eCCR has to be extra careful and can be part of the statistics.

Kind Regards,

Derek Ong

jondive · 1st November 2006, 17:48

Two ECCR (Very nice) megs and two even nicer (IMHO

) SK's all playing together last Sunday

.
On the more serious note I guess its true that some people will consider one type of Rebreather more dangerous than another, for me, having now had a good look at ECCR dont think that I'll be converting any time soon but that is based on COST not risk. The Meg's really did look the Dogs....
Ben your minute of fame is here.

RonMicjan · 1st November 2006, 18:10

everyone is entitled to their opinion... wrong though it may be.

When I first began goofing around with making CCR's out of Dolphins I had a local machinist make me a reg blocker for an oceanic reg so I could have a non compensated reg to deliver o2 to my KISS valve. The machinist is a diver and knows the guy I did my PADI instructor level through. Comments began floating through the local grapevine that Ron has a death wish/shouldnt be mod'ing gear/doesnt have a clue/etc. That was 4 years ago, Im still here, having a great time diving.

I believe that CCR diving is a larger risk than OC. More to go wrong, sure. but I also believe that a diver that is serious about the sport should exercise all due diligance to mitigate the risks before going diving. Jill Heinerth summed it up nicely in her safety lecture at the Pirates Cove Rebreather week last may. If it has a problem, DONT dive it. Too many divers say, gee, its only a small leak, I can deal with that. Or...one cell is a bit off, I will just keep an eye on it. Or, main battery is a bit low, I will change it next time. There is a reason the system is warning you...heed its advice.

We as "recreational" CCR divers are complety in control of what, when and how we dive, we are not the military hot shots who ask "yes sir, how deep?" on the way down, or commercial divers who get paid to go. this is recreational, the world will not come to an end if we have to call a dive. If you rig has a problem DONT DIVE! Yeah, you say, but I spent so much money to get here, the weather window is perfect, all my buddies are waiting, I may never get to do this dive again, etc ad nauseum...The unit is broke, dont dive it!!!

Our training has included all means of escaping from a dive that has gone bad, bail out and live to dive another day. If the loop is creating the bad music in your head, get off it. The second symptom of hypoxia, hyperoxia or hypercapnia, is denial. Naw, must have been the pizza I ate today that is giving me that BAD feeling.

Dive Safe, see you all at DEMA!

decoweenie · 1st November 2006, 20:48

Quote: (Originally Posted by wannabe)

Although he uses a KISS Rebreather, I felt disappointed that as a RB diver, at no time did he support the sport. Instead he felt compelled to point out the statistics of accidents of the eCCR divers.

From the descriptions, I believe I know EXACTLY who that was... Initials are "D.K." ?

Don't let him get under your skin, he is harmless and a very good diver. Everyone could learn a lot from him.

As others already mentioned, everyone is entitled to their own opinion and most will try to support their own choice of Rebreather unit.

***Decodiver*** · 1st November 2006, 21:55

Opinions are like arseholes............................

Don't let the buggers get you down................

Cheers,

Dave Cooper.

Genesis · 1st November 2006, 22:07

The risks on a Rebreather are different than on OC. eCCR risks are different than those on a CMF unit, and those are different still than the risks on a SCR.

Fact is, we're not meant by God (or Darwin if you prefer) to inhabit the oceans beneath the surface. We do so for a while because we expend quite a bit of time, trouble and money to get there, and in all of that if something goes wrong we find out exactly how "not intended for this place" we really are.

I believe that people should bugger off when it comes to one's personal computation of the balance between risk and reward. And that's what diving is - a uniquely personal risk:reward computation.

There are few activities in the world that are as uniquely personal in their risk exposure. Base jumping isn't - you might land on someone (or someTHING) and break them (or it). Flying aircraft isn't for the same reason. Driving a car isn't - there's lots of things to hit and some of them break and/or die.

But when you go diving, the risk is yours. People argue that you can expose others to risk as well, but that is voluntarily undertaken - you don't impose it on them, they impose it on themselves! If you do meet Jesus while diving, and someone goes after your remains, that is their decision - freely undertaken.

So are eCCRs more dangerous? I don't know. Let's stick you in the engine room of the Oriskany with no frapping idea how you got there. You are breathing a 40 cube bottle of 21/35, and the needle is dropping fast. In front of you is a full set of doubles and a fully-charged eCCR - you have formal training in the use of neither.

Which do you elect to don and attempt to use to get out?

RonMicjan · 2nd November 2006, 00:04

Quote: (Originally Posted by Genesis)

So are eCCRs more dangerous? I don't know. Let's stick you in the engine room of the Oriskany with no frapping idea how you got there. You are breathing a 40 cube bottle of 21/35, and the needle is dropping fast. In front of you is a full set of doubles and a fully-charged eCCR - you have formal training in the use of neither.

Which do you elect to don and attempt to use to get out?

I like it, kinda like "The Cube" movie but underwater. Sign me up, just dont make the CCR an inspio with cracked handsets : )

**wedivebc** · 2nd November 2006, 01:44

Quote: (Originally Posted by RonMicjan)

I like it, kinda like "The Cube" movie but underwater. Sign me up, just dont make the CCR an inspio with cracked handsets : )

I would still take the inspo over the OC

sensor330 · 2nd November 2006, 01:49

Quote: (Originally Posted by wedivebc)

I would still take the inspo over the OC

Yah,yah,yah the Meg is the best and the rest is crap.

SINUS · 2nd November 2006, 12:57

Quote: (Originally Posted by wannabe)

Hello everyone,

My name is Derek and
A little bit about myself.........
Derek Ong

Double - Headed snake ........ splitter !!!

1st November 2006, 14:47	#1 (permalink)
wannabe New Member Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: May 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 46	a whole new dimension and opinion on Rebreather diving Hello everyone, My name is Derek and this thread is not meant to flame anyone using the various rebreathers available. A little bit about myself, I use a Meg rebreather and lately found out that the reg provided by scubpro(MK2) is not supported by any authorised agent in Singapore esp the 100% cleaned O2 cleaned( where I lived and dived). I managed to track down a veteran Rebreather diver in Singapore who agreed to help me with the servicing of the reg 1st stage, abeit generic parts. When he found out that I use a meg, he told me about the dangers of full electronic CCR and the people who died using it, namely Fred Evans and then IANTD no 2 who died using inspiration Rebreather amongst other high profile divers using eCCRs who perished. Although he uses a KISS Rebreather, I felt disappointed that as a RB diver, at no time did he support the sport. Instead he felt compelled to point out the statistics of accidents of the eCCR divers. Clearly he does not support the sport as a whole as to my understanding, people who use eCCR has to be extra careful and can be part of the statistics. Kind Regards, Derek Ong Last edited by wannabe : 1st November 2006 at 14:57.
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1st November 2006, 18:10	#3 (permalink)
RonMicjan Cap Ron scourge of the NW Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Dolphin Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Classic Kiss Dolphin Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cape Disapointment, The Graveyard of the Pacific Posts: 1,120	Re: a whole new dimension and opinion on Rebreather diving everyone is entitled to their opinion... wrong though it may be. When I first began goofing around with making CCR's out of Dolphins I had a local machinist make me a reg blocker for an oceanic reg so I could have a non compensated reg to deliver o2 to my KISS valve. The machinist is a diver and knows the guy I did my PADI instructor level through. Comments began floating through the local grapevine that Ron has a death wish/shouldnt be mod'ing gear/doesnt have a clue/etc. That was 4 years ago, Im still here, having a great time diving. I believe that CCR diving is a larger risk than OC. More to go wrong, sure. but I also believe that a diver that is serious about the sport should exercise all due diligance to mitigate the risks before going diving. Jill Heinerth summed it up nicely in her safety lecture at the Pirates Cove Rebreather week last may. If it has a problem, DONT dive it. Too many divers say, gee, its only a small leak, I can deal with that. Or...one cell is a bit off, I will just keep an eye on it. Or, main battery is a bit low, I will change it next time. There is a reason the system is warning you...heed its advice. We as "recreational" CCR divers are complety in control of what, when and how we dive, we are not the military hot shots who ask "yes sir, how deep?" on the way down, or commercial divers who get paid to go. this is recreational, the world will not come to an end if we have to call a dive. If you rig has a problem DONT DIVE! Yeah, you say, but I spent so much money to get here, the weather window is perfect, all my buddies are waiting, I may never get to do this dive again, etc ad nauseum...The unit is broke, dont dive it!!! Our training has included all means of escaping from a dive that has gone bad, bail out and live to dive another day. If the loop is creating the bad music in your head, get off it. The second symptom of hypoxia, hyperoxia or hypercapnia, is denial. Naw, must have been the pizza I ate today that is giving me that BAD feeling. Dive Safe, see you all at DEMA! __________________ Marine rescue, towing and salvage. Interfering with natural selection since 1983. www.tmishop.com Diving bits etc. www.seatowpdx.com The Summer Job
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1st November 2006, 20:48	#4 (permalink)
decoweenie Crash Test Dummy Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cairo Posts: 5,487	Re: a whole new dimension and opinion on Rebreather diving Quote: (Originally Posted by wannabe) Although he uses a KISS Rebreather, I felt disappointed that as a RB diver, at no time did he support the sport. Instead he felt compelled to point out the statistics of accidents of the eCCR divers. From the descriptions, I believe I know EXACTLY who that was... Initials are "D.K." ? Don't let him get under your skin, he is harmless and a very good diver. Everyone could learn a lot from him. As others already mentioned, everyone is entitled to their own opinion and most will try to support their own choice of Rebreather unit. __________________ "...after a while you get bored offering advice to a bull that like to keep butting the fence with its head rather than walking through the open gate..." - Rebreather World PM Last edited by decoweenie : 2nd November 2006 at 04:22.
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1st November 2006, 21:55	#5 (permalink)
*Decodiver* Administrator Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Geneva Posts: 2,194	Re: a whole new dimension and opinion on Rebreather diving Opinions are like arseholes............................ Don't let the buggers get you down................ Cheers, Dave Cooper. __________________ CCR/OC Trimix Instructor Trainer CCR Training to Mixed Gas in Switzerland, France, UK & Germany on Megalodon/COPIS-Megalodon/KISS/Sport KISS/Ouroboros/rEvo/Inspiration/Evolution/Sentinel www.zerogravitydiving.com Rebreather World Terms & Conditions
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1st November 2006, 22:07	#6 (permalink)
Genesis Bubbless Box of Death Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Home Build Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Sunny Florida Posts: 1,453	Re: a whole new dimension and opinion on Rebreather diving The risks on a Rebreather are different than on OC. eCCR risks are different than those on a CMF unit, and those are different still than the risks on a SCR. Fact is, we're not meant by God (or Darwin if you prefer) to inhabit the oceans beneath the surface. We do so for a while because we expend quite a bit of time, trouble and money to get there, and in all of that if something goes wrong we find out exactly how "not intended for this place" we really are. I believe that people should bugger off when it comes to one's personal computation of the balance between risk and reward. And that's what diving is - a uniquely personal risk:reward computation. There are few activities in the world that are as uniquely personal in their risk exposure. Base jumping isn't - you might land on someone (or someTHING) and break them (or it). Flying aircraft isn't for the same reason. Driving a car isn't - there's lots of things to hit and some of them break and/or die. But when you go diving, the risk is yours. People argue that you can expose others to risk as well, but that is voluntarily undertaken - you don't impose it on them, they impose it on themselves! If you do meet Jesus while diving, and someone goes after your remains, that is their decision - freely undertaken. So are eCCRs more dangerous? I don't know. Let's stick you in the engine room of the Oriskany with no frapping idea how you got there. You are breathing a 40 cube bottle of 21/35, and the needle is dropping fast. In front of you is a full set of doubles and a fully-charged eCCR - you have formal training in the use of neither. Which do you elect to don and attempt to use to get out? __________________ "A venturesome minority will always be eager to get off on their own, and no obstacles should be placed in their path; let them take risks for Godsake, let them get lost, sunburnt, stranded, drowned, eaten by bears, buried alive under avalanches - that is the right and privilege of any free American." http://www.denninger.net http://www.diversunion.org/liability.htm - Fix the Diving Cert racket
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2nd November 2006, 00:04	#7 (permalink)
RonMicjan Cap Ron scourge of the NW Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Dolphin Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Classic Kiss Dolphin Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cape Disapointment, The Graveyard of the Pacific Posts: 1,120	Re: a whole new dimension and opinion on Rebreather diving Quote: (Originally Posted by Genesis) So are eCCRs more dangerous? I don't know. Let's stick you in the engine room of the Oriskany with no frapping idea how you got there. You are breathing a 40 cube bottle of 21/35, and the needle is dropping fast. In front of you is a full set of doubles and a fully-charged eCCR - you have formal training in the use of neither. Which do you elect to don and attempt to use to get out? I like it, kinda like "The Cube" movie but underwater. Sign me up, just dont make the CCR an inspio with cracked handsets : ) __________________ Marine rescue, towing and salvage. Interfering with natural selection since 1983. www.tmishop.com Diving bits etc. www.seatowpdx.com The Summer Job
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2nd November 2006, 01:44	#8 (permalink)
wedivebc Dave Tomblin Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Other CCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Vancouver Island BC Canada Posts: 1,508	Re: a whole new dimension and opinion on Rebreather diving Quote: (Originally Posted by RonMicjan) I like it, kinda like "The Cube" movie but underwater. Sign me up, just dont make the CCR an inspio with cracked handsets : ) I would still take the inspo over the OC __________________ Cheers, Dave.... Man is the only animal burdened with the knowledge he will eventually die
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2nd November 2006, 01:49	#9 (permalink)
sensor330 RBW Member Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Inspiration Classic Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Victoria, British Columbia, Canada Posts: 594	Re: a whole new dimension and opinion on Rebreather diving Quote: (Originally Posted by wedivebc) I would still take the inspo over the OC Yah,yah,yah the Meg is the best and the rest is crap.
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2nd November 2006, 12:57	#10 (permalink)
SINUS Rebreather Aficionado Current Rebreather/s: Other SCR Other Rebreather/s: Other SCR Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: 137km from equator Posts: 196	Re: a whole new dimension and opinion on Rebreather diving Quote: (Originally Posted by wannabe) Hello everyone, My name is Derek and A little bit about myself......... Derek Ong Double - Headed snake ........ splitter !!! __________________ "Silence Is Always Beautiful" Last edited by SINUS : 13th November 2006 at 12:13.
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