The COPIS (Ko-pes) Megalodon

**Gill Envy** · 3rd April 2007, 23:02

Ron et all,

I'm curious why a needle valve was not incorporated into the copis to allow the diver to fine tune the o2 flow on the fly, like it is with the palagian?

Wouldn't it be ironic if we ended up going from the evolution to the copis? In any case your and mel's articles on the copis are very well written and certainly show off it's finer points.

RonMicjan · 4th April 2007, 03:42

Too easy to screw up the setting on a needle valve, during a dive is not the time to be messing with flow rates, if one sets the (copis) unit up correctly it is virtually task loading free, except for ascents. some guys like the needle valve, but Im not a fan. The only advantage it gives you is to use a standard compensated reg and go deeper than 300ish feet, but if you really want to do that, I suggest the full electronic meg as it has redundancys the Copis doesnt.

add to that, where to you hang the needle valve, more gas connections, it drives the system farther from the whole KISS principle.

hope this helps

**Gill Envy** · 4th April 2007, 05:01

Quote: (Originally Posted by RonMicjan)

Too easy to screw up the setting on a needle valve, during a dive is not the time to be messing with flow rates, if one sets the (copis) unit up correctly it is virtually task loading free, except for ascents. some guys like the needle valve, but Im not a fan. The only advantage it gives you is to use a standard compensated reg and go deeper than 300ish feet, but if you really want to do that, I suggest the full electronic meg as it has redundancys the Copis doesnt.

add to that, where to you hang the needle valve, more gas connections, it drives the system farther from the whole KISS principle.

hope this helps

thanks Ron. In Mel's ADM article, she mentions that the only thing needed to surpass the 300 ft depth limit of the copis would be off-board oxygen (to obtain adequate IP) for the part of the dive that was below 300 ft. Do you agree and/or are there other aspects of the rig that limit it's depth rating.

**wedivebc** · 4th April 2007, 05:12

Quote: (Originally Posted by Gill Envy)

thanks Ron. In Mel's ADM article, she mentions that the only thing needed to surpass the 300 ft depth limit of the copis would be off-board oxygen (to obtain adequate IP) for the part of the dive that was below 300 ft. Do you agree and/or are there other aspects of the rig that limit it's depth rating.

I would want a redundant O2 monitor in case the primary display floods. A HUD would do the trick nicely

RonMicjan · 4th April 2007, 08:01

Like Dave says, one method of O2 monitoring is not enough for deep diving. consider that the COPIS was developed for the entry level diver who wants to use an extremely reliable loop, but may not want to spend the dough and get the full apecs system right off. The two things that would keep me from wanting to take the COPIS deep are lack of redundant displays and loss of the constant flow of O2 beyond the equvalent IP depth. Yes, one could carry a second small cylinder of O2 and plumb it into the manual add valve to take it deeper, but you could also step into the APECS system and get the additional redundancy of two handsets and the HUD.

If you insist on the simplicity of the COPIS system, but still want to dive deep, the second cylinder of O2, and a VR3 tied into a forth cell is a nice way to go. DeltaP now has a monitoring system that includes a HUD, high pressure monitoring of your supply gas and integrated deco on the VR3 screen. Give me a jingle sometime and i can give you more details and pricing. If you have not had a chance to see a meg, I can arrange that too. Its all pie and promises until you get one taken apart in front of you that will give you an appreciation of just how well this thing is made.

**almity1** · 4th April 2007, 09:02

Quote: (Originally Posted by RonMicjan)

If you have not had a chance to see a meg, I can arrange that too. Its all pie and promises until you get one taken apart in front of you that will give you an appreciation of just how well this thing is made.

I can vouch for that

**Gill Envy** · 4th April 2007, 18:57

Ron, thanks for the offer. I have had a chance to see the copis but I can imagine that hearing it from you, having such close ties to it's creation would be of added value. Let me know if you are up in the Seattle area any time soon and have some time to come by our place in greenlake for tea or a beer.

I don't know if i'm ever going to be diving below 300 ft but it is of interest to know if what the copis's true limits are.

Another question: Short of actually getting the crossover training and working up to some of the current swept diving we like to do in BC, it's hard to ascertain weather a constant flow orrifice is actually adequate to keep up with significant ups and downs in metabolic rate. When i'm pushing hard against a current I need a system that will keep up with my increase in o2 burn without requiring too much fiddling...as hanging on is somtimes a task in and of itself. Like so many things, it's hard to get a solid sense of a particular rebreather's capabilities without actually owning and diving it for a while. Do you think a constant flow orifice is adequate for current diving?

Due to the fact that we like to go to rather remote areas, we need to be able to take care of most repairs ourselves. Also, i'm becomming more sympathetic to the mCCR philosopy. Together, modularity, keeping Po2 monitoring separate from decompression and other functions and manual injection all seem to add up to not missing dives due to malfunction and some would even contend it tends to results in fewer fatalities (training and vigilance notwithstanding). Even with a VR3 or Shearwater GF on a 4th cell for real time po2 deco as back up, i'm seeing the value of having the primary PO2 monitoring system deadicated to that one function. I'm also getting closer to concluding that leaving the injeciton monitoring up to the computer in the divers brain may turn out to be the best balance.

I think that for many, the Copis will be the recreational divers choice while the Apex II version will remain the deep divers pick but for the mCCR camp it may turn out that the Copis will become the rebreather of choice for any sort of diving.

Quote: (Originally Posted by RonMicjan)

Like Dave says, one method of O2 monitoring is not enough for deep diving. consider that the COPIS was developed for the entry level diver who wants to use an extremely reliable loop, but may not want to spend the dough and get the full apecs system right off. The two things that would keep me from wanting to take the COPIS deep are lack of redundant displays and loss of the constant flow of O2 beyond the equvalent IP depth. Yes, one could carry a second small cylinder of O2 and plumb it into the manual add valve to take it deeper, but you could also step into the APECS system and get the additional redundancy of two handsets and the HUD.

If you insist on the simplicity of the COPIS system, but still want to dive deep, the second cylinder of O2, and a VR3 tied into a forth cell is a nice way to go. DeltaP now has a monitoring system that includes a HUD, high pressure monitoring of your supply gas and integrated deco on the VR3 screen. Give me a jingle sometime and i can give you more details and pricing. If you have not had a chance to see a meg, I can arrange that too. Its all pie and promises until you get one taken apart in front of you that will give you an appreciation of just how well this thing is made.

RonMicjan · 5th April 2007, 19:00

you will of course have to monitor your PO2, so if you are fighting current, you will have to add more often, but I find on most dives I only add manually a couple times during the dive and more during ascent, depending on ascent speed. Its not really much task loading, except during the learning process. : ) I like to task load! you not me

So the orifice would actually be less task loading than a needle valve, because now you have two controls to decide which to use, hmmm, do I bump the flow cause Im swimming hard, and then have to remember to turn it back down, or do I add some O2 manually and if I keep swimming hard add some more later? Keep in mind the needle valve is not an A, B or C decision, its infinitly variable between off and full flow so you will never really know exactly where you are on the flow rate, you can only test it at the surface. I tried this out early on and hated it, my opinion, constant flow is better, simpler, less task load and less stress.

maintainence is super simple on the Copis, change batteries occasionally. keep it clean, do your pre and post dive checklists.

Happy to come by some day and show the rig, Patti is going to Alki Point cove 2 tomorrow along with another meg diver Mike Pement, you could stop by and say hi. I wont be there this time, but can certainly look you up next time Im there. PM me with your contact stuff.

decoweenie · 5th April 2007, 19:30

Quote: (Originally Posted by RonMicjan)

...my opinion, constant flow is better, simpler, less task load and less stress...

Absolutely!

I tend to piss people off whenever I mention this, but sometimes people are planning for the 0.001% chance that they might do. For example, there are hundreds of actual KISS divers, and the actual amount of those (who honestly) went deeper than the depth feasible using just 0.035" orifice and 12bar IP are very small fraction (i.e. handful).

Keep it simple (aka KISS)!

silent running · 6th April 2007, 06:40

Quote: (Originally Posted by RonMicjan)

you will of course have to monitor your PO2, so if you are fighting current, you will have to add more often, but I find on most dives I only add manually a couple times during the dive and more during ascent, depending on ascent speed. Its not really much task loading, except during the learning process. : ) I like to task load! you not me

So the orifice would actually be less task loading than a needle valve, because now you have two controls to decide which to use,

Keep in mind the needle valve is not an A, B or C decision, its infinitly variable between off and full flow so you will never really know exactly where you are on the flow rate, you can only test it at the surface.

Hi Ron, my understanding is that once you get the hang of a needle, you almost never have to push the button, just adjust the knob once or twice to match consumption. I believe that is part of the object-not to have to push the button. So, no you shouldn't be having to decide all the time whether to push the button or not.

And while the needle is infinitely variable, you don't need to know what your exact flow rate is, only whether you have too much or too little because...it's adjustable. So actually you are constantly checking the flow rate everytime you look at your PO2. We all understand the importance of checking PO2 often, so what's the difference btw checking your displays to see if the flow is good or whether you need to push a button?

IMHO, this strikes me as a difference in what people define as "task loading". A person who dives fixed orafice MCCR is conditioned to the physical activity of pushing the button and looking at the display. A person who manages to master the needle valve is checking their display just as often and thinking about his flow rate everytime he begins to work more or less or changes depth and performing the physical task of adjusting the knob less often than the button pusher in a dive with a variety of workloads. Which is more complacent or task loaded? Is a diver with a fixed orafice, who has an easy dive that matches his predetermined flow and only has to push the button once or twice on a nice slow ascent more complacent than a diver using a needle valve that has to be adjusted twice during a dive, even while finning hard into a current while trying hard not get blown off into blue water or seperated from their buddies?

Personally, I prefer more mental task loading than physical. Why? because I can think about many more things simultaneously than I can physically do things-I'm a better thinker than I am a juggler. I'd guess that Jet pilots are better thinkers than jugglers too.

Oops, I think I hear Sutton running down the tarmac, better get in the bunker...

3rd April 2007, 23:02	#41 (permalink)
Gill Envy Shearwater Copis Divers Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Evolution Other CCR Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: seattle Posts: 1,326	Re: The COPIS (Ko-pes) Megalodon Ron et all, I'm curious why a needle valve was not incorporated into the copis to allow the diver to fine tune the o2 flow on the fly, like it is with the palagian? Wouldn't it be ironic if we ended up going from the evolution to the copis? In any case your and mel's articles on the copis are very well written and certainly show off it's finer points. __________________ Gill Envy ...Because I wasn't born with gills! ><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>
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4th April 2007, 03:42	#42 (permalink)
RonMicjan Cap Ron scourge of the NW Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Dolphin Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Classic Kiss Dolphin Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cape Disapointment, The Graveyard of the Pacific Posts: 1,101	Re: The COPIS (Ko-pes) Megalodon Too easy to screw up the setting on a needle valve, during a dive is not the time to be messing with flow rates, if one sets the (copis) unit up correctly it is virtually task loading free, except for ascents. some guys like the needle valve, but Im not a fan. The only advantage it gives you is to use a standard compensated reg and go deeper than 300ish feet, but if you really want to do that, I suggest the full electronic meg as it has redundancys the Copis doesnt. add to that, where to you hang the needle valve, more gas connections, it drives the system farther from the whole KISS principle. hope this helps __________________ Marine rescue, towing and salvage. Interfering with natural selection since 1983. www.tmishop.com Diving bits etc. www.seatowpdx.com The Summer Job
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4th April 2007, 05:01	#43 (permalink)
Gill Envy Shearwater Copis Divers Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Evolution Other CCR Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: seattle Posts: 1,326	Re: The COPIS (Ko-pes) Megalodon Quote: (Originally Posted by RonMicjan) Too easy to screw up the setting on a needle valve, during a dive is not the time to be messing with flow rates, if one sets the (copis) unit up correctly it is virtually task loading free, except for ascents. some guys like the needle valve, but Im not a fan. The only advantage it gives you is to use a standard compensated reg and go deeper than 300ish feet, but if you really want to do that, I suggest the full electronic meg as it has redundancys the Copis doesnt. add to that, where to you hang the needle valve, more gas connections, it drives the system farther from the whole KISS principle. hope this helps thanks Ron. In Mel's ADM article, she mentions that the only thing needed to surpass the 300 ft depth limit of the copis would be off-board oxygen (to obtain adequate IP) for the part of the dive that was below 300 ft. Do you agree and/or are there other aspects of the rig that limit it's depth rating. __________________ Gill Envy ...Because I wasn't born with gills! ><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>
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4th April 2007, 05:12	#44 (permalink)
wedivebc Dave Tomblin Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Other CCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Vancouver Island BC Canada Posts: 1,447	Re: The COPIS (Ko-pes) Megalodon Quote: (Originally Posted by Gill Envy) thanks Ron. In Mel's ADM article, she mentions that the only thing needed to surpass the 300 ft depth limit of the copis would be off-board oxygen (to obtain adequate IP) for the part of the dive that was below 300 ft. Do you agree and/or are there other aspects of the rig that limit it's depth rating. I would want a redundant O2 monitor in case the primary display floods. A HUD would do the trick nicely __________________ Cheers, Dave.... Man is the only animal burdened with the knowledge he will eventually die
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4th April 2007, 08:01	#45 (permalink)
RonMicjan Cap Ron scourge of the NW Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Dolphin Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Classic Kiss Dolphin Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cape Disapointment, The Graveyard of the Pacific Posts: 1,101	Re: The COPIS (Ko-pes) Megalodon Like Dave says, one method of O2 monitoring is not enough for deep diving. consider that the COPIS was developed for the entry level diver who wants to use an extremely reliable loop, but may not want to spend the dough and get the full apecs system right off. The two things that would keep me from wanting to take the COPIS deep are lack of redundant displays and loss of the constant flow of O2 beyond the equvalent IP depth. Yes, one could carry a second small cylinder of O2 and plumb it into the manual add valve to take it deeper, but you could also step into the APECS system and get the additional redundancy of two handsets and the HUD. If you insist on the simplicity of the COPIS system, but still want to dive deep, the second cylinder of O2, and a VR3 tied into a forth cell is a nice way to go. DeltaP now has a monitoring system that includes a HUD, high pressure monitoring of your supply gas and integrated deco on the VR3 screen. Give me a jingle sometime and i can give you more details and pricing. If you have not had a chance to see a meg, I can arrange that too. Its all pie and promises until you get one taken apart in front of you that will give you an appreciation of just how well this thing is made. __________________ Marine rescue, towing and salvage. Interfering with natural selection since 1983. www.tmishop.com Diving bits etc. www.seatowpdx.com The Summer Job
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4th April 2007, 09:02	#46 (permalink)
almity1 No Viz is BAD Viz Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Evolution Prism Topaz Sport Kiss Optima Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 177	Re: The COPIS (Ko-pes) Megalodon Quote: (Originally Posted by RonMicjan) If you have not had a chance to see a meg, I can arrange that too. Its all pie and promises until you get one taken apart in front of you that will give you an appreciation of just how well this thing is made. I can vouch for that __________________ Cheers almity1 - http://www.almity1.com
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4th April 2007, 18:57	#47 (permalink)
Gill Envy Shearwater Copis Divers Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Evolution Other CCR Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: seattle Posts: 1,326	Re: The COPIS (Ko-pes) Megalodon Ron, thanks for the offer. I have had a chance to see the copis but I can imagine that hearing it from you, having such close ties to it's creation would be of added value. Let me know if you are up in the Seattle area any time soon and have some time to come by our place in greenlake for tea or a beer. I don't know if i'm ever going to be diving below 300 ft but it is of interest to know if what the copis's true limits are. Another question: Short of actually getting the crossover training and working up to some of the current swept diving we like to do in BC, it's hard to ascertain weather a constant flow orrifice is actually adequate to keep up with significant ups and downs in metabolic rate. When i'm pushing hard against a current I need a system that will keep up with my increase in o2 burn without requiring too much fiddling...as hanging on is somtimes a task in and of itself. Like so many things, it's hard to get a solid sense of a particular rebreather's capabilities without actually owning and diving it for a while. Do you think a constant flow orifice is adequate for current diving? Due to the fact that we like to go to rather remote areas, we need to be able to take care of most repairs ourselves. Also, i'm becomming more sympathetic to the mCCR philosopy. Together, modularity, keeping Po2 monitoring separate from decompression and other functions and manual injection all seem to add up to not missing dives due to malfunction and some would even contend it tends to results in fewer fatalities (training and vigilance notwithstanding). Even with a VR3 or Shearwater GF on a 4th cell for real time po2 deco as back up, i'm seeing the value of having the primary PO2 monitoring system deadicated to that one function. I'm also getting closer to concluding that leaving the injeciton monitoring up to the computer in the divers brain may turn out to be the best balance. I think that for many, the Copis will be the recreational divers choice while the Apex II version will remain the deep divers pick but for the mCCR camp it may turn out that the Copis will become the rebreather of choice for any sort of diving. Quote: (Originally Posted by RonMicjan) Like Dave says, one method of O2 monitoring is not enough for deep diving. consider that the COPIS was developed for the entry level diver who wants to use an extremely reliable loop, but may not want to spend the dough and get the full apecs system right off. The two things that would keep me from wanting to take the COPIS deep are lack of redundant displays and loss of the constant flow of O2 beyond the equvalent IP depth. Yes, one could carry a second small cylinder of O2 and plumb it into the manual add valve to take it deeper, but you could also step into the APECS system and get the additional redundancy of two handsets and the HUD. If you insist on the simplicity of the COPIS system, but still want to dive deep, the second cylinder of O2, and a VR3 tied into a forth cell is a nice way to go. DeltaP now has a monitoring system that includes a HUD, high pressure monitoring of your supply gas and integrated deco on the VR3 screen. Give me a jingle sometime and i can give you more details and pricing. If you have not had a chance to see a meg, I can arrange that too. Its all pie and promises until you get one taken apart in front of you that will give you an appreciation of just how well this thing is made. __________________ Gill Envy ...Because I wasn't born with gills! ><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°> Last edited by Gill Envy : 5th April 2007 at 16:09.
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5th April 2007, 19:00	#48 (permalink)
RonMicjan Cap Ron scourge of the NW Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Dolphin Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Classic Kiss Dolphin Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cape Disapointment, The Graveyard of the Pacific Posts: 1,101	Re: The COPIS (Ko-pes) Megalodon you will of course have to monitor your PO2, so if you are fighting current, you will have to add more often, but I find on most dives I only add manually a couple times during the dive and more during ascent, depending on ascent speed. Its not really much task loading, except during the learning process. : ) I like to task load! you not me So the orifice would actually be less task loading than a needle valve, because now you have two controls to decide which to use, hmmm, do I bump the flow cause Im swimming hard, and then have to remember to turn it back down, or do I add some O2 manually and if I keep swimming hard add some more later? Keep in mind the needle valve is not an A, B or C decision, its infinitly variable between off and full flow so you will never really know exactly where you are on the flow rate, you can only test it at the surface. I tried this out early on and hated it, my opinion, constant flow is better, simpler, less task load and less stress. maintainence is super simple on the Copis, change batteries occasionally. keep it clean, do your pre and post dive checklists. Happy to come by some day and show the rig, Patti is going to Alki Point cove 2 tomorrow along with another meg diver Mike Pement, you could stop by and say hi. I wont be there this time, but can certainly look you up next time Im there. PM me with your contact stuff. __________________ Marine rescue, towing and salvage. Interfering with natural selection since 1983. www.tmishop.com Diving bits etc. www.seatowpdx.com The Summer Job
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5th April 2007, 19:30	#49 (permalink)
decoweenie Crash Test Dummy Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cairo Posts: 5,510	Re: The COPIS (Ko-pes) Megalodon Quote: (Originally Posted by RonMicjan) ...my opinion, constant flow is better, simpler, less task load and less stress... Absolutely! I tend to piss people off whenever I mention this, but sometimes people are planning for the 0.001% chance that they might do. For example, there are hundreds of actual KISS divers, and the actual amount of those (who honestly) went deeper than the depth feasible using just 0.035" orifice and 12bar IP are very small fraction (i.e. handful). Keep it simple (aka KISS)! __________________ "...after a while you get bored offering advice to a bull that like to keep butting the fence with its head rather than walking through the open gate..." - Rebreather World PM
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6th April 2007, 06:40	#50 (permalink)
silent running Mature mouth breather Current Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: U.S.A. Brooklyn, New York Posts: 1,836	Re: The COPIS (Ko-pes) Megalodon Quote: (Originally Posted by RonMicjan) you will of course have to monitor your PO2, so if you are fighting current, you will have to add more often, but I find on most dives I only add manually a couple times during the dive and more during ascent, depending on ascent speed. Its not really much task loading, except during the learning process. : ) I like to task load! you not me So the orifice would actually be less task loading than a needle valve, because now you have two controls to decide which to use, Keep in mind the needle valve is not an A, B or C decision, its infinitly variable between off and full flow so you will never really know exactly where you are on the flow rate, you can only test it at the surface. Hi Ron, my understanding is that once you get the hang of a needle, you almost never have to push the button, just adjust the knob once or twice to match consumption. I believe that is part of the object-not to have to push the button. So, no you shouldn't be having to decide all the time whether to push the button or not. And while the needle is infinitely variable, you don't need to know what your exact flow rate is, only whether you have too much or too little because...it's adjustable. So actually you are constantly checking the flow rate everytime you look at your PO2. We all understand the importance of checking PO2 often, so what's the difference btw checking your displays to see if the flow is good or whether you need to push a button? IMHO, this strikes me as a difference in what people define as "task loading". A person who dives fixed orafice MCCR is conditioned to the physical activity of pushing the button and looking at the display. A person who manages to master the needle valve is checking their display just as often and thinking about his flow rate everytime he begins to work more or less or changes depth and performing the physical task of adjusting the knob less often than the button pusher in a dive with a variety of workloads. Which is more complacent or task loaded? Is a diver with a fixed orafice, who has an easy dive that matches his predetermined flow and only has to push the button once or twice on a nice slow ascent more complacent than a diver using a needle valve that has to be adjusted twice during a dive, even while finning hard into a current while trying hard not get blown off into blue water or seperated from their buddies? Personally, I prefer more mental task loading than physical. Why? because I can think about many more things simultaneously than I can physically do things-I'm a better thinker than I am a juggler. I'd guess that Jet pilots are better thinkers than jugglers too. Oops, I think I hear Sutton running down the tarmac, better get in the bunker...
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