Megalodon vs Inspiration

silent running · 26th March 2006, 08:32

Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski)

In place of the analog secondary I would rather see a case that houses 3 digital panel meters like thats used in the KISS, the displays react very fast and have little additional circuitry, plus they could be used with low or high MV cells (with the proper resisotr).. Batery life is not an issue since the batteries seem to last forever without the backlights, and a long time with (plus you will still have more than ample warning that batteries are getting low), plus there is a battery for each meter and truenly independing systems, so being without accurate monitoring is highly unlikely, moreso than any other type of monitoring..

In another thread a HH diver was complaining about 3 cells that were not agreeing, 1 had 1.27, the others had 1.18, and 1.19, on an analog guage these will look quite similiar and MIGHT be missed (depends on how close you examine the guage, in a "casual" glance its probably more likely) as not agreeing if you switch between 3 cells since you cant see the at the same time and you ARE breathing on the loop so time does change the readings..

Don't take this as PRISM bashing its just some personal observations and wants...

Hi Joe, of course no offense taken. And of course I don't agree that the KISS displays are more failsafe than the Prism passive 2ndry-no batteries, no amplifier, no 1 ATA housing, fully potted. There is no way I can think of that a Prism 2ndry could lose any one sensor, unless it was due to a problem with the wiring harness in the loop. This is not true of the KISS displays. Each one can flood, each battery can die and each amp/circuit board can crap out. There's more that can go wrong with the KISS displays precisely because there's 3 of them, this and the more complicated digital display hardware. No matter how much 3 side by side, independent displays appeal to you, there is no way around this fact.

And I will always know when I have a problem with sensor readings whether it's the electronics or the sensors themselves. Because I can isolate the low current side from the high current/electronics side by turning off the power and checking the passive low current 2ndry. On a KISS display, or any other digital display, if I get a funny reading or the numbers are jumping around, I have no way of knowing for sure if it's the sensor or the display itself. I don't want to have to guess or bet which kind of problem it is at 100 m.

The Prism display is much more simple, in fact it's the most simple display. And according to the KISS concept simple is good. I have no problem seeing small differences-.08-in the display scale. Also, when a cell is on it's way out, while I scroll through the 3, the needle moves up from 0 with less momentum through the full scale. This is helpful in confirming that there's a problem with the cell. If it takes a little more effort to read than the digitals, so be it. I'll take simple over more complicated any day.

I think the KISS displays are plenty good and obviously work well enough for most of their owners. I just want to make sure that all the info about the differences btw passive and digital displays is out there. -Andy

silent running · 26th March 2006, 08:33

Quote: (Originally Posted by caveseeker7)

By the way, you two, this thread is aboout the Inspo and the Meg.

He started it!

Steve · 27th March 2006, 00:55

Quote: (Originally Posted by diverklondike)

It's interesting that most of the Meg issues that have been stated are around the electronics... Matching the Meg with the HH certainly does address those issues...
Mark

Before the Vision electrics came out, the HH was touted as the best thing since sliced bread for Inspo divers. A good number sold in Australia and most of them went back and forth between Australia and the US many time to fix 'one last problem'. The constant stream of issues and unsafe failures with the Hammerhead are some of the reasons I went toward the Meg over the Inspo.

I bought a HH for the Classic KISS. It came about a year after I paid for it, incomplete and not working properly. It ate batteries in under an hour. I sent it back and it came back 3 months later untouched. After many unanswered emails and a few unanswered calls I sold it. I don't know if the guy that bought it ever got reasonable service either.

I put the HH in the same basket as the Explorer. Every so often you meet someone that loves them. More often than not you meet people that wouldn't touch them again after throwing good money after bad or have had a failure that could have harmed them.

APECS 2 may not have all of the bells and whistles of the Vision or the HH, but it is solid and works. I am pretty humourless when it comes to controllers that tell me lies that can hurt me. I'll stick with the APECS 2 thanks.

wizbang · 27th March 2006, 02:00

Quote: (Originally Posted by Steve)

.....

APECS 2 may not have all of the bells and whistles of the Vision or the HH, but it is solid and works. I am pretty humourless when it comes to controllers that tell me lies that can hurt me. I'll stick with the APECS 2 thanks.

Make sure you aren't diving a VR3 either then. I have personally seen some "lies" on peoples wrists. Just as you describe, I come across VR3 people that have not had even a single issue and then those that just keeping getting a dud.

The service has been good for those that bought them new but it dosn't make up for "lies" when you need honesty.

It was one of the things that gave me pause when looking at the Boris.
If a simple VR3 has this amount of problems then what chances has a control+computer got.
But then I haven't heard anything about the Boris giving problems.

decoweenie · 27th March 2006, 05:21

Quote: (Originally Posted by wizbang)

But then I haven't heard anything about the Boris giving problems.

... publicly!

silent running · 27th March 2006, 19:54

Quote: (Originally Posted by wizbang)

Make sure you aren't diving a VR3 either then. I have personally seen some "lies" on peoples wrists. Just as you describe, I come across VR3 people that have not had even a single issue and then those that just keeping getting a dud.

The service has been good for those that bought them new but it dosn't make up for "lies" when you need honesty.

It was one of the things that gave me pause when looking at the Boris.
If a simple VR3 has this amount of problems then what chances has a control+computer got.
But then I haven't heard anything about the Boris giving problems.

Hi Wiz, the service I recieved from Delta P and 1 of their distributors is part of the reason I swapped my VR3 for an HE. As a 2nd hand owner, I was treated, as we say where I'm from, like a bald headed step child. DP were barely polite and the distributor, who "offered" to send it back to DP, actually "lost" the unit in their shop and never sent it. The unit now lives with a guy in the UK, where I hope he will have an easier time getting it serviced/updated. Never gave me any trouble though...
This in contrast to Gene at HE, who was friendly, took my used HE and upgraded the software and tested it for a mere $100, good as new.
As for computer lies, what's life without a few things popping up that aren't true to keep you on your toes? That's why I bring a bottom timer and tables. I only trust the computer now when it appears to be working right as compared with my tables... -Andy

RMalahowski · 28th March 2006, 05:38

Quote: (Originally Posted by Steve)

I bought a HH for the Classic KISS. It came about a year after I paid for it, incomplete and not working properly. It ate batteries in under an hour. I sent it back and it came back 3 months later untouched. After many unanswered emails and a few unanswered calls I sold it. I don't know if the guy that bought it ever got reasonable service either.

A bit of a tangent but... I guess it still is astounding how the life of one person can make such an impact. The person I am talking about in this case is Will Smithers. I have one of the old (I'm not sure old is the right expression) set of electronics on my Meg that was designed by Will (and Kevin Juergensen). This really was the predecessor to the HH. With the exception of one little glitch (if one of the oxygen sensors is disconnected, the oxygen solenoid will free flow), I've had no problem at all with the electronics and deco package.

I guess what is amazing is that when Will was killed in the helicopter crash, one would assume that someone else could pick up where he left off almost immediately. Here we are 3 and 1/2 years later and the electronics packages still have not caught up to where they were in late 2002. I guess the moral of this story is never to underestimate the value of your life or of seemingly innocuous decisions related to safety. Dive safely - the only limits you should be pushing are the conservative ones!

NickK · 29th March 2006, 04:03

HTML Code:

But I also found that some parts of the Evolution can easily break

.

Hi Cedric,

I think this is a very serious statement here. If rebreather parts are "easily to break" that looks like the unit not safe to dive.

Do you mind to tell us, who is diving Evolutions which parts you had broken?
My unit is very new, only 30 hours on it right now, but I did not noticed anything that easy to break on it. I am possibly wrong, but like to hear proof from an expert.

And, if you are correct and have some really serious proof than we (all Evo divers) can go after APD. If not, than APD can go after you for such statement.

So far I did not hear and/or read anything about Evo parts "easily to break".

Regards,
Nick

PS By the way, Vision electronics working very good in my opinion. When I decided to go for rebreather, I spend quite bit of time to visit the web to find out as much as possible about different units available. As for not pro
diver options offered by APD were most attractive. I did my training on Inspo Classic and, honestly, I did not like those hand sets a bit. I could get classic in one month after Evo order, but preferred to wait much longer to get Vision one. And I do not regret it. As an integrated package it is one of the best available these days.

RebreatherDave · 29th March 2006, 06:38

Oh, I don't think AP is going to "go after" anyone...his opinion is just opinion and not any real attempt to deliberately maliciously malign AP or their products......we are all in this great hobby together and suing eachother for our opinions accurate or non-maliciously inaccurate is not how we all tend to do things amongst family. AP has a strong enough reputation that it isn't needed and would seem suspect. Besides, I don't know about you, but when Martin Parker speaks or writes, you can't help but be highly impressed. This guy is as helpful as he is sharp.

I threw up my personal experience with moisture traveling down the handset hoses on the Classic and corroding the microswitch, but this has been solved with Vision electronics......Silent Divign does suggest having the handsets clipped up high at all times while not diving, but even this didn't work for me after several years.

I will guess every CCR has idiosyncracies and things that fail or break, but if things have broken or failed in some manner, I think it would be useful if we posted some CONSTRUCTIVE criticism of our units, the info would be good for the all manufacturers so they know how to improve their products.

I have finally had an opportunity to see the Meg up close....damn fine machining of the head....no wonder why Joe says the factory tour was impressive.......the stainless steel mesh screen is probably pricey and overkill compared to scrim fiber, but damn, sure is cool! Sort of like those olive drab R.E. Darling life support loop hoses with fabric embeded in the rubber for durability and wire reinforcing the hose to prevent collapse. All only about $500 a set at oem prices.

NickK · 29th March 2006, 08:49

[quote=RebreatherDave]

HTML Code:

...his opinion is just opinion

Dave,

Really I do not want nobody go after anyone. And busy people do not have time on it.

HTML Code:

 I will guess every CCR has idiosyncracies and things that fail or break, but if things have broken or failed in some manner, I think it would be useful if we posted some CONSTRUCTIVE criticism of our units, the info would be good for the all manufacturers so they know how to improve their products.

Yes, CONSTRUCTIVE PLEASE

Nobody and nothing perfect in this world. Most of us understand that.

HTML Code:

 I have finally had an opportunity to see the Meg up close....damn fine machining of the head....

Truly believe that all guys trying to do the best and slowly but surely RBs moving to "safety and reliability of commercial aircraft". Thought it is long way to go...

All the best,
Nick

26th March 2006, 08:32	#41 (permalink)
silent running Mature mouth breather Current Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: U.S.A. Brooklyn, New York Posts: 1,873	Re: Megalodon vs Inspiration Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski) In place of the analog secondary I would rather see a case that houses 3 digital panel meters like thats used in the KISS, the displays react very fast and have little additional circuitry, plus they could be used with low or high MV cells (with the proper resisotr).. Batery life is not an issue since the batteries seem to last forever without the backlights, and a long time with (plus you will still have more than ample warning that batteries are getting low), plus there is a battery for each meter and truenly independing systems, so being without accurate monitoring is highly unlikely, moreso than any other type of monitoring.. In another thread a HH diver was complaining about 3 cells that were not agreeing, 1 had 1.27, the others had 1.18, and 1.19, on an analog guage these will look quite similiar and MIGHT be missed (depends on how close you examine the guage, in a "casual" glance its probably more likely) as not agreeing if you switch between 3 cells since you cant see the at the same time and you ARE breathing on the loop so time does change the readings.. Don't take this as PRISM bashing its just some personal observations and wants... Hi Joe, of course no offense taken. And of course I don't agree that the KISS displays are more failsafe than the Prism passive 2ndry-no batteries, no amplifier, no 1 ATA housing, fully potted. There is no way I can think of that a Prism 2ndry could lose any one sensor, unless it was due to a problem with the wiring harness in the loop. This is not true of the KISS displays. Each one can flood, each battery can die and each amp/circuit board can crap out. There's more that can go wrong with the KISS displays precisely because there's 3 of them, this and the more complicated digital display hardware. No matter how much 3 side by side, independent displays appeal to you, there is no way around this fact. And I will always know when I have a problem with sensor readings whether it's the electronics or the sensors themselves. Because I can isolate the low current side from the high current/electronics side by turning off the power and checking the passive low current 2ndry. On a KISS display, or any other digital display, if I get a funny reading or the numbers are jumping around, I have no way of knowing for sure if it's the sensor or the display itself. I don't want to have to guess or bet which kind of problem it is at 100 m. The Prism display is much more simple, in fact it's the most simple display. And according to the KISS concept simple is good. I have no problem seeing small differences-.08-in the display scale. Also, when a cell is on it's way out, while I scroll through the 3, the needle moves up from 0 with less momentum through the full scale. This is helpful in confirming that there's a problem with the cell. If it takes a little more effort to read than the digitals, so be it. I'll take simple over more complicated any day. I think the KISS displays are plenty good and obviously work well enough for most of their owners. I just want to make sure that all the info about the differences btw passive and digital displays is out there. -Andy Last edited by silent running : 26th March 2006 at 10:16.
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26th March 2006, 08:33	#42 (permalink)
silent running Mature mouth breather Current Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: U.S.A. Brooklyn, New York Posts: 1,873	Re: Megalodon vs Inspiration Quote: (Originally Posted by caveseeker7) By the way, you two, this thread is aboout the Inspo and the Meg. He started it!
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27th March 2006, 00:55	#43 (permalink)
Steve Ladies bring a plate Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Classic Kiss MK 15.X Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Perth - Australia Posts: 1,126	Re: Megalodon vs Inspiration Quote: (Originally Posted by diverklondike) It's interesting that most of the Meg issues that have been stated are around the electronics... Matching the Meg with the HH certainly does address those issues... Mark Before the Vision electrics came out, the HH was touted as the best thing since sliced bread for Inspo divers. A good number sold in Australia and most of them went back and forth between Australia and the US many time to fix 'one last problem'. The constant stream of issues and unsafe failures with the Hammerhead are some of the reasons I went toward the Meg over the Inspo. I bought a HH for the Classic KISS. It came about a year after I paid for it, incomplete and not working properly. It ate batteries in under an hour. I sent it back and it came back 3 months later untouched. After many unanswered emails and a few unanswered calls I sold it. I don't know if the guy that bought it ever got reasonable service either. I put the HH in the same basket as the Explorer. Every so often you meet someone that loves them. More often than not you meet people that wouldn't touch them again after throwing good money after bad or have had a failure that could have harmed them. APECS 2 may not have all of the bells and whistles of the Vision or the HH, but it is solid and works. I am pretty humourless when it comes to controllers that tell me lies that can hurt me. I'll stick with the APECS 2 thanks. __________________ WARNING: I contain occasional coarse language, extreme sexual references, nudity, and adult themes, which may offend some people - Usually churchy types. Last edited by Steve : 27th March 2006 at 00:58.
(Online)

27th March 2006, 02:00	#44 (permalink)
wizbang WEB MERMEN Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Dolphin Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Inspiration Vision Evolution Prism Topaz Sport Kiss Classic Kiss Dolphin Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Perth Australia Posts: 386	Re: Megalodon vs Inspiration Quote: (Originally Posted by Steve) ..... APECS 2 may not have all of the bells and whistles of the Vision or the HH, but it is solid and works. I am pretty humourless when it comes to controllers that tell me lies that can hurt me. I'll stick with the APECS 2 thanks. Make sure you aren't diving a VR3 either then. I have personally seen some "lies" on peoples wrists. Just as you describe, I come across VR3 people that have not had even a single issue and then those that just keeping getting a dud. The service has been good for those that bought them new but it dosn't make up for "lies" when you need honesty. It was one of the things that gave me pause when looking at the Boris. If a simple VR3 has this amount of problems then what chances has a control+computer got. But then I haven't heard anything about the Boris giving problems.
(Online)

27th March 2006, 05:21	#45 (permalink)
decoweenie Crash Test Dummy Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cairo Posts: 5,487	Re: Megalodon vs Inspiration Quote: (Originally Posted by wizbang) But then I haven't heard anything about the Boris giving problems. ... publicly! __________________ "...after a while you get bored offering advice to a bull that like to keep butting the fence with its head rather than walking through the open gate..." - Rebreather World PM
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27th March 2006, 19:54	#46 (permalink)
silent running Mature mouth breather Current Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: U.S.A. Brooklyn, New York Posts: 1,873	Re: Megalodon vs Inspiration Quote: (Originally Posted by wizbang) Make sure you aren't diving a VR3 either then. I have personally seen some "lies" on peoples wrists. Just as you describe, I come across VR3 people that have not had even a single issue and then those that just keeping getting a dud. The service has been good for those that bought them new but it dosn't make up for "lies" when you need honesty. It was one of the things that gave me pause when looking at the Boris. If a simple VR3 has this amount of problems then what chances has a control+computer got. But then I haven't heard anything about the Boris giving problems. Hi Wiz, the service I recieved from Delta P and 1 of their distributors is part of the reason I swapped my VR3 for an HE. As a 2nd hand owner, I was treated, as we say where I'm from, like a bald headed step child. DP were barely polite and the distributor, who "offered" to send it back to DP, actually "lost" the unit in their shop and never sent it. The unit now lives with a guy in the UK, where I hope he will have an easier time getting it serviced/updated. Never gave me any trouble though... This in contrast to Gene at HE, who was friendly, took my used HE and upgraded the software and tested it for a mere $100, good as new. As for computer lies, what's life without a few things popping up that aren't true to keep you on your toes? That's why I bring a bottom timer and tables. I only trust the computer now when it appears to be working right as compared with my tables... -Andy
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28th March 2006, 05:38	#47 (permalink)
RMalahowski New Member Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: California Posts: 18	Re: Megalodon vs Inspiration Quote: (Originally Posted by Steve) I bought a HH for the Classic KISS. It came about a year after I paid for it, incomplete and not working properly. It ate batteries in under an hour. I sent it back and it came back 3 months later untouched. After many unanswered emails and a few unanswered calls I sold it. I don't know if the guy that bought it ever got reasonable service either. A bit of a tangent but... I guess it still is astounding how the life of one person can make such an impact. The person I am talking about in this case is Will Smithers. I have one of the old (I'm not sure old is the right expression) set of electronics on my Meg that was designed by Will (and Kevin Juergensen). This really was the predecessor to the HH. With the exception of one little glitch (if one of the oxygen sensors is disconnected, the oxygen solenoid will free flow), I've had no problem at all with the electronics and deco package. I guess what is amazing is that when Will was killed in the helicopter crash, one would assume that someone else could pick up where he left off almost immediately. Here we are 3 and 1/2 years later and the electronics packages still have not caught up to where they were in late 2002. I guess the moral of this story is never to underestimate the value of your life or of seemingly innocuous decisions related to safety. Dive safely - the only limits you should be pushing are the conservative ones! __________________ Bob M.
(Offline)

29th March 2006, 04:03	#48 (permalink)
NickK New Member Current Rebreather/s: Evolution Other Rebreather/s: Evolution Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Vancouver Island Posts: 90	Re: Megalodon vs Inspiration HTML Code: But I also found that some parts of the Evolution can easily break . Hi Cedric, I think this is a very serious statement here. If rebreather parts are "easily to break" that looks like the unit not safe to dive. Do you mind to tell us, who is diving Evolutions which parts you had broken? My unit is very new, only 30 hours on it right now, but I did not noticed anything that easy to break on it. I am possibly wrong, but like to hear proof from an expert. And, if you are correct and have some really serious proof than we (all Evo divers) can go after APD. If not, than APD can go after you for such statement. So far I did not hear and/or read anything about Evo parts "easily to break". Regards, Nick PS By the way, Vision electronics working very good in my opinion. When I decided to go for rebreather, I spend quite bit of time to visit the web to find out as much as possible about different units available. As for not pro diver options offered by APD were most attractive. I did my training on Inspo Classic and, honestly, I did not like those hand sets a bit. I could get classic in one month after Evo order, but preferred to wait much longer to get Vision one. And I do not regret it. As an integrated package it is one of the best available these days.
(Offline)

29th March 2006, 06:38	#49 (permalink)
RebreatherDave Maximum **** Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s:** Join Date: May 2005 Location: L.A., where the debris meets the sea Posts: 226	Re: Megalodon vs Inspiration Oh, I don't think AP is going to "go after" anyone...his opinion is just opinion and not any real attempt to deliberately maliciously malign AP or their products......we are all in this great hobby together and suing eachother for our opinions accurate or non-maliciously inaccurate is not how we all tend to do things amongst family. AP has a strong enough reputation that it isn't needed and would seem suspect. Besides, I don't know about you, but when Martin Parker speaks or writes, you can't help but be highly impressed. This guy is as helpful as he is sharp. I threw up my personal experience with moisture traveling down the handset hoses on the Classic and corroding the microswitch, but this has been solved with Vision electronics......Silent Divign does suggest having the handsets clipped up high at all times while not diving, but even this didn't work for me after several years. I will guess every CCR has idiosyncracies and things that fail or break, but if things have broken or failed in some manner, I think it would be useful if we posted some CONSTRUCTIVE criticism of our units, the info would be good for the all manufacturers so they know how to improve their products. I have finally had an opportunity to see the Meg up close....damn fine machining of the head....no wonder why Joe says the factory tour was impressive.......the stainless steel mesh screen is probably pricey and overkill compared to scrim fiber, but damn, sure is cool! Sort of like those olive drab R.E. Darling life support loop hoses with fabric embeded in the rubber for durability and wire reinforcing the hose to prevent collapse. All only about $500 a set at oem prices.
(Offline)

29th March 2006, 08:49	#50 (permalink)
NickK New Member Current Rebreather/s: Evolution Other Rebreather/s: Evolution Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Vancouver Island Posts: 90	Re: Megalodon vs Inspiration [quote=RebreatherDave] HTML Code: ...his opinion is just opinion Dave, Really I do not want nobody go after anyone. And busy people do not have time on it. HTML Code: I will guess every CCR has idiosyncracies and things that fail or break, but if things have broken or failed in some manner, I think it would be useful if we posted some CONSTRUCTIVE criticism of our units, the info would be good for the all manufacturers so they know how to improve their products. Yes, CONSTRUCTIVE PLEASE Nobody and nothing perfect in this world. Most of us understand that. HTML Code: I have finally had an opportunity to see the Meg up close....damn fine machining of the head.... Truly believe that all guys trying to do the best and slowly but surely RBs moving to "safety and reliability of commercial aircraft". Thought it is long way to go... All the best, Nick
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