Megalodon vs Inspiration

bubnotbub · 24th March 2006, 09:42

Sometimes i do first dive on CC and second dive on OC.
have you try to take with you all Inspiration and his elettronic when you go in water with normal tank?

All the best
Aldo

Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie)

Just curious... Can you not change the setting to OC-bail-out on the computer when going to OC, then back CC mode when back on the loop ?

decoweenie · 24th March 2006, 09:44

Quote: (Originally Posted by bubnotbub)

Sometimes i do first dive on CC and second dive on OC.

Sorry, misunderstood you. I was thinking you meant OC - CC on the same dive.

It must be my English...

bubnotbub · 24th March 2006, 09:48

Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie)

Sorry, misunderstood you. I was thinking you meant OC - CC on the same dive.

It must be my English...

No, may be it's my english

Best

Aldo

***jradomski*** · 24th March 2006, 10:42

Quote: (Originally Posted by silent running)

Hi Joe, the Prism is known for how well it holds SP, better than the other units tested by the USN, including the Inspo. So considering that this is the main purpose of any unit's electronics, what about them could be so bad? Maybe you don't like them because you can't change the electronic SP underwater?
Also, while adaptive O2 injection sounds like a good idea, I can't help but wonder why it's necessary. The Prism does a very good job of holding SP at depth with a 1 second long injection. It takes depth and prior O2 consumption into account and anticipates the coming injection, before it dips. And when, other than a fast ascent(!), would a unit get so far off SP as to require a longer injection rate? Inquiring minds want to know... Thanks, -Andy

The inability for the user to control the setpoint is one, but the lack of a digital readout of all cells at the same time is my biggest problem..

Adaptive SP control IS a good idea, while it is important on ascents so that the target SP is closely maintained, it also helps in times of sporadic hard work, since a non adaptive contoller has to be targeted around a specific range of anticipated RMV based on orifice size in the solenoid and IP of regulator.. Otherwise overshoots or periods below target will be common..

Without being able to see 3 cells digitally next to one another, its really difficult to guage how closely SP is being maintained.. even 1 decimal place is really inadequate to accurately judge a controllers performance..

If you don't have an adaptive alg, the ability to hold SP will vary at depth, with a specific range of depths being the best.. A fixed injection time will tend to be to short for any depth below the designers target depth, and too much deeper than this..
On very deep dives, any alg that doesn't adapt to depth will overshoot the SP, the deeper you are the more it overshoots...

James · 24th March 2006, 11:39

Quote: (Originally Posted by bubnotbub)

To work with video and other, I'm forced sometimes to alternate OC and CC and the integrated computer it doesn't help me in this.

I'm afriad I now don't own any OC gear, so have to dive CCR!

+ I don't need to worry about running out of gas & can get closer to the fish!

Quote: (Originally Posted by bubnotbub)

Besides I find, that the deco program that is currently found on the Vision is not really the more adjourned among the algorithms and the profiles proposed not really ideal.
This is my opinion shure

For deep dives, I dive on tables anyway (I like knowing to the minute when I'm going to surface) & have found the on board deco to track pretty much with my cut tables anyway (V plannner).

Quote: (Originally Posted by bubnotbub)

(it's really difficoult to exprime somethings in foreign language, then excuse me for the errors)

Your english is about 10 times better than any foreign language I attempt!

Best regards,

James.

silent running · 25th March 2006, 08:02

Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski)

The inability for the user to control the setpoint is one, but the lack of a digital readout of all cells at the same time is my biggest problem..

Adaptive SP control IS a good idea, while it is important on ascents so that the target SP is closely maintained, it also helps in times of sporadic hard work, since a non adaptive contoller has to be targeted around a specific range of anticipated RMV based on orifice size in the solenoid and IP of regulator.. Otherwise overshoots or periods below target will be common..

Without being able to see 3 cells digitally next to one another, its really difficult to guage how closely SP is being maintained.. even 1 decimal place is really inadequate to accurately judge a controllers performance..

If you don't have an adaptive alg, the ability to hold SP will vary at depth, with a specific range of depths being the best.. A fixed injection time will tend to be to short for any depth below the designers target depth, and too much deeper than this..
On very deep dives, any alg that doesn't adapt to depth will overshoot the SP, the deeper you are the more it overshoots...

Hi Joe thanks for the info. SP control is not something people spend a lot of time discussing over other, more obvious CCR performance characteristics.
As for the performance of of CCRs that don't have adaptive control, I think that in the Prism's case, the performance at deeper depths has been good, to my knowledge. Several units have been past 500 fsw with no issues reported. My own experience has been that there was no overshoot up to 250 fsw, and none shallower.
There are multiple factors in SP control, both manual and auto. Solenoid tolerances/precision is one. Voting logic is another. How many dynamics the controler takes into account-programing-like depth, O2 consumption, actual cell behavior matched against post injection expected cell behavior and the actual location of the solenoid in the loop. Between all these things it would seem that there would be many ways to buffer the effects of O2 injection and prevent spike/uneven gas mixing. All these things are in fact, adaptive, by design.
As for reading digital readouts, side by side, I'm not sure that all is as it appears. All digital gages are at the end of a fair amount of hardware, some of which is adaptive in it's own special way. Any digital signal has to be amplified and averaged enough to give a stable reading from a very small and frequently fluctuating voltage. It seems that that some controllers are more crude in their averaging than others. Maybe the HH has less averaging in the program and less hardware btw sensor and display than others. But to imagine that just because you see a set of numbers next to each other, unchanging for a few seconds, that they are an absolutely direct, true representation of the loop content, seems a little optimistic.
I've said it before, the needle gage is a more real time, more dynamic indicator of cell behavior than a digital display. I don't have to wonder whether the computer is doing any averaging to the ever fluctuating mv readings when I look my needle gage. I may not be able to see all the sensor readings side by side, but whatever I see, I know there is a minimum of stuff between the mv's and the very simple graphic needle display. And of course, it doesn't need any high current-battery power-to give me this info... -Andy

Allan_o · 25th March 2006, 08:43

In MY opinion.
A rebreather is a rebreather nothing more, nothing less. The concept are the same on each unit..
You RE Breathe..
Talking about wich rebreather that is the best, doesent get anyone anywhere..
Some likes the mother, some likes the daughter, and then some likes them both.
In this world of diving rebreathers, all of us has to make a decision about how to stay alive downthere, some likes the meg, some likes the inspo and then some likes OC???

(Joke)

All of us buy different things required to our own needs. For instance i dont travel a lot, so i dont see why i need a rebreather that would fit into a matchbox?

maintaining life in environments where we basically not are welcome is an individual decision of how to do it, and as long as we all are individuals, the decision of how to do it will be proportional with number of individuals.

Does anyone concure?

Regards Allan

***caveseeker7*** · 25th March 2006, 12:32

Quote: (Originally Posted by Allan_o)

A rebreather is a rebreather nothing more, nothing less.
The concept are the same on each unit..
You RE Breathe..

Well ... yeah. But that's like saying all vehicles are vehicles, nothing more, nothing less.
The concept are the same on each unit..
You drive ..

But there is a difference between a Defender, a Phanton, an F360 and a Unimog.

Quote:

Talking about wich rebreather that is the best, doesent get anyone anywhere..

More likely the best for specific needs, in addition to circulating gas.
Different people use different units for different purposes ... sharing information and experiences seems rather like a good idea. It is the purpose of this board.

Quote:

Some likes the mother, some likes the daughter, and then some likes them both.

See, I like daughters and their sister. Something you may not have considered yet.

Quote:

All of us buy different things required to our own needs.

That's really the bottom. I concur with that.

***jradomski*** · 26th March 2006, 05:16

Quote: (Originally Posted by silent running)

I've said it before, the needle gage is a more real time, more dynamic indicator of cell behavior than a digital display. I don't have to wonder whether the computer is doing any averaging to the ever fluctuating mv readings when I look my needle gage. I may not be able to see all the sensor readings side by side, but whatever I see, I know there is a minimum of stuff between the mv's and the very simple graphic needle display. And of course, it doesn't need any high current-battery power-to give me this info... -Andy

In place of the analog secondary I would rather see a case that houses 3 digital panel meters like thats used in the KISS, the displays react very fast and have little additional circuitry, plus they could be used with low or high MV cells (with the proper resisotr).. Batery life is not an issue since the batteries seem to last forever without the backlights, and a long time with (plus you will still have more than ample warning that batteries are getting low), plus there is a battery for each meter and truenly independing systems, so being without accurate monitoring is highly unlikely, moreso than any other type of monitoring..

In another thread a HH diver was complaining about 3 cells that were not agreeing, 1 had 1.27, the others had 1.18, and 1.19, on an analog guage these will look quite similiar and MIGHT be missed (depends on how close you examine the guage, in a "casual" glance its probably more likely) as not agreeing if you switch between 3 cells since you cant see the at the same time and you ARE breathing on the loop so time does change the readings..

Don't take this as PRISM bashing its just some personal observations and wants...

***caveseeker7*** · 26th March 2006, 07:43

Personally, I would like to have both.

From what I've been told the HH for the MK offers either its digital secondary or can be used with the MK's analog gauge. That is, in my opinion, a very good layout: digital primary with deco integration, choice of secondaries.

Tripple sensor readouts side by side are certainly very convenient, allw for a quicker glance, comparing cell's reaction to changes and have a higher resolution.

The analog gauge is hands down the simplest and safest way as it doesn't rely on any power source. As the current choice is either or, it got my vote.

SMI is still working on the deco computer. It should include a tripple sensor readout, disposing of that problem and be separate from the controller with its own power supply so failure of either doesn't eliminate the other. In my opinion the most desirable solution.

By the way, you two, this thread is aboout the Inspo and the Meg.

24th March 2006, 09:42	#31 (permalink)
bubnotbub Silent diver Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Ouroboros rEvo Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss rEvo Other CCR Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: France Italy Posts: 389	Re: Megalodon vs Inspiration Sometimes i do first dive on CC and second dive on OC. have you try to take with you all Inspiration and his elettronic when you go in water with normal tank? All the best Aldo Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie) Just curious... Can you not change the setting to OC-bail-out on the computer when going to OC, then back CC mode when back on the loop ? __________________ Aldo Ferrucci *Trimix and Rebreather IT* *Expedition Leader* *www.bubnotbub.com* I like bubbles only in my glass of Champagne
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24th March 2006, 09:44	#32 (permalink)
decoweenie Crash Test Dummy Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cairo Posts: 5,510	Re: Megalodon vs Inspiration Quote: (Originally Posted by bubnotbub) Sometimes i do first dive on CC and second dive on OC. Sorry, misunderstood you. I was thinking you meant OC - CC on the same dive. It must be my English... __________________ "...after a while you get bored offering advice to a bull that like to keep butting the fence with its head rather than walking through the open gate..." - Rebreather World PM
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24th March 2006, 09:48	#33 (permalink)
bubnotbub Silent diver Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Ouroboros rEvo Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss rEvo Other CCR Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: France Italy Posts: 389	Re: Megalodon vs Inspiration Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie) Sorry, misunderstood you. I was thinking you meant OC - CC on the same dive. It must be my English... No, may be it's my english Best Aldo __________________ Aldo Ferrucci *Trimix and Rebreather IT* *Expedition Leader* *www.bubnotbub.com* I like bubbles only in my glass of Champagne
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24th March 2006, 10:42	#34 (permalink)
*jradomski* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx Posts: 2,885	Re: Megalodon vs Inspiration Quote: (Originally Posted by silent running) Hi Joe, the Prism is known for how well it holds SP, better than the other units tested by the USN, including the Inspo. So considering that this is the main purpose of any unit's electronics, what about them could be so bad? Maybe you don't like them because you can't change the electronic SP underwater? Also, while adaptive O2 injection sounds like a good idea, I can't help but wonder why it's necessary. The Prism does a very good job of holding SP at depth with a 1 second long injection. It takes depth and prior O2 consumption into account and anticipates the coming injection, before it dips. And when, other than a fast ascent(!), would a unit get so far off SP as to require a longer injection rate? Inquiring minds want to know... Thanks, -Andy The inability for the user to control the setpoint is one, but the lack of a digital readout of all cells at the same time is my biggest problem.. Adaptive SP control IS a good idea, while it is important on ascents so that the target SP is closely maintained, it also helps in times of sporadic hard work, since a non adaptive contoller has to be targeted around a specific range of anticipated RMV based on orifice size in the solenoid and IP of regulator.. Otherwise overshoots or periods below target will be common.. Without being able to see 3 cells digitally next to one another, its really difficult to guage how closely SP is being maintained.. even 1 decimal place is really inadequate to accurately judge a controllers performance.. If you don't have an adaptive alg, the ability to hold SP will vary at depth, with a specific range of depths being the best.. A fixed injection time will tend to be to short for any depth below the designers target depth, and too much deeper than this.. On very deep dives, any alg that doesn't adapt to depth will overshoot the SP, the deeper you are the more it overshoots... __________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated. Last edited by jradomski : 24th March 2006 at 10:50.
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24th March 2006, 11:39	#35 (permalink)
James New Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: May 2005 Location: UK Posts: 59	Re: Megalodon vs Inspiration Quote: (Originally Posted by bubnotbub) To work with video and other, I'm forced sometimes to alternate OC and CC and the integrated computer it doesn't help me in this. I'm afriad I now don't own any OC gear, so have to dive CCR! + I don't need to worry about running out of gas & can get closer to the fish! Quote: (Originally Posted by bubnotbub) Besides I find, that the deco program that is currently found on the Vision is not really the more adjourned among the algorithms and the profiles proposed not really ideal. This is my opinion shure For deep dives, I dive on tables anyway (I like knowing to the minute when I'm going to surface) & have found the on board deco to track pretty much with my cut tables anyway (V plannner). Quote: (Originally Posted by bubnotbub) (it's really difficoult to exprime somethings in foreign language, then excuse me for the errors) Your english is about 10 times better than any foreign language I attempt! Best regards, James.
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25th March 2006, 08:02	#36 (permalink)
silent running Mature mouth breather Current Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: U.S.A. Brooklyn, New York Posts: 1,813	Re: Megalodon vs Inspiration Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski) The inability for the user to control the setpoint is one, but the lack of a digital readout of all cells at the same time is my biggest problem.. Adaptive SP control IS a good idea, while it is important on ascents so that the target SP is closely maintained, it also helps in times of sporadic hard work, since a non adaptive contoller has to be targeted around a specific range of anticipated RMV based on orifice size in the solenoid and IP of regulator.. Otherwise overshoots or periods below target will be common.. Without being able to see 3 cells digitally next to one another, its really difficult to guage how closely SP is being maintained.. even 1 decimal place is really inadequate to accurately judge a controllers performance.. If you don't have an adaptive alg, the ability to hold SP will vary at depth, with a specific range of depths being the best.. A fixed injection time will tend to be to short for any depth below the designers target depth, and too much deeper than this.. On very deep dives, any alg that doesn't adapt to depth will overshoot the SP, the deeper you are the more it overshoots... Hi Joe thanks for the info. SP control is not something people spend a lot of time discussing over other, more obvious CCR performance characteristics. As for the performance of of CCRs that don't have adaptive control, I think that in the Prism's case, the performance at deeper depths has been good, to my knowledge. Several units have been past 500 fsw with no issues reported. My own experience has been that there was no overshoot up to 250 fsw, and none shallower. There are multiple factors in SP control, both manual and auto. Solenoid tolerances/precision is one. Voting logic is another. How many dynamics the controler takes into account-programing-like depth, O2 consumption, actual cell behavior matched against post injection expected cell behavior and the actual location of the solenoid in the loop. Between all these things it would seem that there would be many ways to buffer the effects of O2 injection and prevent spike/uneven gas mixing. All these things are in fact, adaptive, by design. As for reading digital readouts, side by side, I'm not sure that all is as it appears. All digital gages are at the end of a fair amount of hardware, some of which is adaptive in it's own special way. Any digital signal has to be amplified and averaged enough to give a stable reading from a very small and frequently fluctuating voltage. It seems that that some controllers are more crude in their averaging than others. Maybe the HH has less averaging in the program and less hardware btw sensor and display than others. But to imagine that just because you see a set of numbers next to each other, unchanging for a few seconds, that they are an absolutely direct, true representation of the loop content, seems a little optimistic. I've said it before, the needle gage is a more real time, more dynamic indicator of cell behavior than a digital display. I don't have to wonder whether the computer is doing any averaging to the ever fluctuating mv readings when I look my needle gage. I may not be able to see all the sensor readings side by side, but whatever I see, I know there is a minimum of stuff between the mv's and the very simple graphic needle display. And of course, it doesn't need any high current-battery power-to give me this info... -Andy
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25th March 2006, 08:43	#37 (permalink)
Allan_o New Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Copenhagen Denmark Posts: 81	Re: Megalodon vs Inspiration In MY opinion. A rebreather is a rebreather nothing more, nothing less. The concept are the same on each unit.. You RE Breathe.. Talking about wich rebreather that is the best, doesent get anyone anywhere.. Some likes the mother, some likes the daughter, and then some likes them both. In this world of diving rebreathers, all of us has to make a decision about how to stay alive downthere, some likes the meg, some likes the inspo and then some likes OC??? (Joke) All of us buy different things required to our own needs. For instance i dont travel a lot, so i dont see why i need a rebreather that would fit into a matchbox? maintaining life in environments where we basically not are welcome is an individual decision of how to do it, and as long as we all are individuals, the decision of how to do it will be proportional with number of individuals. Does anyone concure? Regards Allan
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25th March 2006, 12:32	#38 (permalink)
*caveseeker7* Who loves ya, baby Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Too far from Neverland Posts: 5,435	Re: Megalodon vs Inspiration Quote: (Originally Posted by Allan_o) A rebreather is a rebreather nothing more, nothing less. The concept are the same on each unit.. You RE Breathe.. Well ... yeah. But that's like saying all vehicles are vehicles, nothing more, nothing less. The concept are the same on each unit.. You drive .. But there is a difference between a Defender, a Phanton, an F360 and a Unimog. Quote: Talking about wich rebreather that is the best, doesent get anyone anywhere.. More likely the best for specific needs, in addition to circulating gas. Different people use different units for different purposes ... sharing information and experiences seems rather like a good idea. It is the purpose of this board. Quote: Some likes the mother, some likes the daughter, and then some likes them both. See, I like daughters and their sister. Something you may not have considered yet. Quote: All of us buy different things required to our own needs. That's really the bottom. I concur with that. __________________ Cheers Stefan "Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.'!"
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26th March 2006, 05:16	#39 (permalink)
*jradomski* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx Posts: 2,885	Re: Megalodon vs Inspiration Quote: (Originally Posted by silent running) I've said it before, the needle gage is a more real time, more dynamic indicator of cell behavior than a digital display. I don't have to wonder whether the computer is doing any averaging to the ever fluctuating mv readings when I look my needle gage. I may not be able to see all the sensor readings side by side, but whatever I see, I know there is a minimum of stuff between the mv's and the very simple graphic needle display. And of course, it doesn't need any high current-battery power-to give me this info... -Andy In place of the analog secondary I would rather see a case that houses 3 digital panel meters like thats used in the KISS, the displays react very fast and have little additional circuitry, plus they could be used with low or high MV cells (with the proper resisotr).. Batery life is not an issue since the batteries seem to last forever without the backlights, and a long time with (plus you will still have more than ample warning that batteries are getting low), plus there is a battery for each meter and truenly independing systems, so being without accurate monitoring is highly unlikely, moreso than any other type of monitoring.. In another thread a HH diver was complaining about 3 cells that were not agreeing, 1 had 1.27, the others had 1.18, and 1.19, on an analog guage these will look quite similiar and MIGHT be missed (depends on how close you examine the guage, in a "casual" glance its probably more likely) as not agreeing if you switch between 3 cells since you cant see the at the same time and you ARE breathing on the loop so time does change the readings.. Don't take this as PRISM bashing its just some personal observations and wants... __________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated.
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26th March 2006, 07:43	#40 (permalink)
*caveseeker7* Who loves ya, baby Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Too far from Neverland Posts: 5,435	Re: Megalodon vs Inspiration Personally, I would like to have both. From what I've been told the HH for the MK offers either its digital secondary or can be used with the MK's analog gauge. That is, in my opinion, a very good layout: digital primary with deco integration, choice of secondaries. Tripple sensor readouts side by side are certainly very convenient, allw for a quicker glance, comparing cell's reaction to changes and have a higher resolution. The analog gauge is hands down the simplest and safest way as it doesn't rely on any power source. As the current choice is either or, it got my vote. SMI is still working on the deco computer. It should include a tripple sensor readout, disposing of that problem and be separate from the controller with its own power supply so failure of either doesn't eliminate the other. In my opinion the most desirable solution. By the way, you two, this thread is aboout the Inspo and the Meg. __________________ Cheers Stefan "Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.'!" Last edited by caveseeker7 : 26th March 2006 at 07:46.
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