Anybody know what this is about?

sensor330

Got this e-mail on on of the lists I subscribe to. Can anybody shed some light on it as its hard for me to form a opinion with only one side of the story.

Scott




It is understood why people with no imagination rip off others hard work and designs, after all it is all they can do. The bottom line is, do not buy rip offs and those that support that behavior for the sake of $$. As in the end some one (Usually the customer) will lose.

ISC has worked hard to become a leader in the business with a quality product and a training and sales philosophy. ISC is a ISO registered company with ZERO findings on our first audit and we are moving very fast to get CE approval on all of our products. Simply with offer commitment to the industry and the customer, as we have proved that, and will continue endeavoring to give the customer what they want.

Those that sell cheap, copy, and rip off ideas have invested very little and have little to show for it other then a clone. This is what the customer is going to get.

ISC has seen its product, logo, and Pre and Post dive sheets copied so that must mean that ISC has some good innovative ideas and others think so too and that is why rip off artists will always be what they are and that is cheap.

Best Regards,
Leon Scamahorn, CEO
InnerSpace Systems Corp
An ISO 9001:2000 registered company
Email: leon@customrebreathers.com
Web: www.customrebreathers.com
Phone/FAX: (+01)360.330.9018

diverklondike

Yup....

This was the email that caused Leon to send it....
************************************************** ****

>To: <rebreather@nwdesigns.com>
>Subject: iQsub Czech Rebreather
>Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 22:14:42 -0500
>
>Interested in learning about the iQsub rebreather that is manufactured in
>Ostrava, Czech Republic. Supposedly there are 12 units out in the market
>and the developer copied the Megalodon with Juergensen electronics. A
>friend in Slovakia has asked my opinion on the units as he is considering
>purchasing one or more for underwater videography work. I don't condone the
>blatant rip off of others people's work especially in the small rebreather
>market but he is bound to move ahead on this project. I believe he is
>motivated by cost and direct, personal support from the manufacturer. Want
>to insure that he is making a safe decision.
>
>Respectfully,
************************************************** ******

decoweenie

And this is the email sent to the same list by the Czech manufacturer...
---------------------------------------------------------------------

I want to react on the e-mail of Mr. Jeffries here about "iQsub" rebreathers.

Now I would like to inform about the real design of the "iQsub" rebreather.

The mentioned rebreather "iQsub" is NOT a copy of Megalodon CCR !!!

The iQsub rebreather is based on the 3 years long development of the MENTES rebreather, which you can find on sites www.therebreathersite.nl The iQsub rebreather is a brand name of the MENTES CCR development. The rebreathers are still under testing process and the development will be finished during couple of months.

There are lot of construction differences from MEG as follow:

1. The gas flows through the device in opposite direction.

2. The hose connectors on the top of the head are placed symmetrically to be more comfortable.

3. The CCR head design is completely other:

- it uses 4 oxygen sensors, 3 for CCR controlling and 1 for an external safety display or computer like VR3

- it is equiped with the system of diluent blowing to oxygen sensors for check-up operations during dive.

- the oxygen injection is conveyed to exhale inlet for better mixing 4. Our radial scrubber is under quite another design in comparison to MEG.

5. The rebreather is equiped with the newly designed mouthpiece with the CC/OC switch valve with OC regulator. It uses a very good seat ball-valve design.

Of course in basic configuration you can find some similarity to other rebreathers and MEG, but the inner design is quite different.
So please forget iQsub rebreather as a copy of any other CCR !!!

Best regards
Bretislav Vaisar
iQsub
Ostrava
Czech Republic

__________________
"...after a while you get bored offering advice to a bull that like to keep butting the fence with its head rather than walking through the open gate..."

- Rebreather World PM

sensor330

I guess I should of read the other messages as well. Usually I just delete most of those e-mails if they don't have a interesting subject line.

decoweenie

To be honest. I did exactly what you did.

I deleted all of those posts about the Czech unit until I saw Leon's post this morning, and wondering what the heck was going on. After I saw this thread, I went back to the trash box and read the posts...

I am NOT saying it is the right thing to do, but things get copied all the time. I was in a business where it is not possible to patent the designs, and as soon as one is proven to work well, all competitors copied it.

Take a look at the Rebreather-80 as an example. And I never heard Reinhard said anything publicly either...

So either legally go after the people who copy your design (if it is possible) or bend over and take it. People who want to save a few bucks and buy copies (or alternatives) are not going to spend real money to buy the original in the first place (majority of the time).

So is it really a lost ?

BTW, is there any URL to the Czech unit ?

__________________
"...after a while you get bored offering advice to a bull that like to keep butting the fence with its head rather than walking through the open gate..."

- Rebreather World PM

steevke

It's a bit like cars - most of them have 4 wheels. If you build a new one, it's bound to look a bit like the others allready on the market...

Rebreathers are a bit the same story, aren't they, just variations on a theme?

As a manufacturer you [should] know that someone will try to copy [or even improve] your design if it's worth something.

Basically it's a measure of the quality of your product: the more others try to copy it, the better it probably is. Look at fake Rolexes - who would like to copy one if they were lousy watches...

In the end it's not just the product that will decide, it's customer service, promptness, communication, image, and a whole lot of other factors. And fortunately those can't be copied that easily.

Steven

decoweenie

Anyone remember what was said about lack of "innovation" in the Rebreather design lately ?

Aside from the scrubber-with-electronic-in-the-lid-sitting-between-2-tanks-and-OTSCL which the Inspiration really popularized about 5 years ago, what has changed much from said lay-out except for the Sport-KISS ? Or a little bit with the Optima rotating the scrubber 90-degree, or the Ohbus based a lot on from the MK-1* design ?

So did the Meg copy the Inspiration idea, except for using different material ?

And did the Classic-KISS also copy the Inspiration idea, except for using an orifice ?

Then how about a bunch of other new CCR coming out in the last 6 months looking just about the same with minor differences ?

I would only call something a copy/clone when it is almost identical.

I will be in China in the next few weeks, so let me know if you want one...

__________________
"...after a while you get bored offering advice to a bull that like to keep butting the fence with its head rather than walking through the open gate..."

- Rebreather World PM

steevke

I was planning to pick one up in Karama when in Dubai Phi... Just make sure you'll be back in time

And bring us a a rebreather 'Made in China', exact copy of a Meg/Inspiration/Whatever... shouldn't cost more than 250$ or so. Hell, I bought a microwave 'MIC' a couple of months ago and it cost less than 30$, and that was including import duties, VAT, packaging, transport and 2 years of warranty!!!

Steven

Genesis

Well, coming from someone who sold what was essentially a commodity product (as a Rebreather is - there's only so many ways to skin that cat) I have to say that I hate sour grapes stuff like this.

First, ISO-anything just means you do it the same way every time, and get the same result. Consistency is all it measures. Is this a big deal? I suppose, but making it the cornerstone of your firm's claim to uniqueness is a bit like saying "the color blue will always look exactly like the sky." Ok. What if I wanted red? I do appreciate knowing that if the specification on a piece in some dimension is +/- 0.002", that it actually WILL BE that, but how this turns into the centerpiece I do not understand. Fact is, from my point of view if you can't source and verify components to be what they should be, you shouldn't be in business. At all.

Second, people buy value. To truly be a market leader you must offer that. Value is not just price, but to ignore price is to ignore reality. Certainly the Maybach is an extraordinary vehicle, but most of its "panache" likely comes from its rarity - and the statement it makes about the size of your checkbook. Is it really any better at getting you to the store than a Civic? Hmmmmm..... do I want to brag or go get some beer for the game today?

Third, many people see a "training and sales philosophy" as a negative, not a positive. I'm solidly in that camp.

What I want from a true market leading product in this space is:

1. Ability to ship on the day ordered, proving that sufficient inventory of every piece or subassembly in the unit is on hand, all the time. I should be able to call with an order at 10:00 AM and have it on a UPS truck the same day. This also proves that the device is built from a set of subassemblies that make sense and can be put together reasonably quickly, which might be important to me on some remote place where I have travelled to go diving.

2. The unit has published a written warranty and statement regarding parts availability no worse than (1) - that is, if I have something break in East-Tim-Buk-Tu, I can get on the phone (or internet), order part #x at a published, rational price (said price list can be seen BEFORE I buy!) and have it put on a global FedEX plane the same day. Every time. My vacation may depend on this some day, so this is important to me. This sounds like #1, but its not - after-sales support and service is just as important as what you do before you have my money.

3. Sufficient quantity is being produced that production quantity pricing shows up. What's really in a rebreather anyway? A can of some material to hold the scrubber material, a couple of hoses to breathe through, some bags that hold gas for counterlungs, a few valves (DSV, O2/Dil adds, OPVs, etc) and some form of electronics (in some units) to read sensors and fire a solenoid. The electronics are no more complicated than the controller in your microwave, and THAT cost the manufacturer $10.00 - maybe. Certainly there must be room for profit and amortization of engineering cost - but $10,000 for the above? For what? There's nothing particularly complicated in there. Look at the DSVs out there on the market - $500+? Huh? Its really nothing more than a glorified plastic ball valve guys, and those are $15 at Home Depot! Yes, I understand that the plastics guys run 10,000 ball valves at once and you run ONE DSV at a time, but who's fault is that? If you're too-thinly-capitalized to build these things in volume, or have decided to price like the Maybach "just 'cause", you open a market opportunity for someone else. Do you really expect that you can price something at 20x cost in production quantities and not have someone else come along and see the opportunity to eat your lunch? If you get copied 'en-banc' it means someone thinks your pricing is WAY above cost and that there's a shot for them to clean your clock. Its your right to price however you'd like, but complaining about the forseeable consequences of your pricing and product strategy sounds like bad sportsmanship to me.

4. A commodity perspective. I do not need to show anything other than money to buy a 50,000lb boat. This does not necessarily mean its smart for me to buy and operate said boat with nothing other than money, but neither Hatteras nor any of the sellers of used Hatteri care if I have anything else. How do I know I can do this? I did it - more than once - and so have hundreds if not thousands of others. In addition and perhaps most importantly, the factory will sell me any part that I need at any time no matter how I acquired the boat (so long as I don't steal it!); they will not refuse to sell me a Frobozz Fridgit unless I've had an approved Hatteras training course on operating the vessel, nor will they try to confiscate it if it has to go back to them for some kind of major repair or problem unless I'm "certified" to operate it. Let's face it guys and gals - said boat is a LOT more complicated than a rebreather, and is just as capable of killing you as a gasbag. It also is quite capable of killing innocent bystanders and doing a hell of a lot of damage to people's property and the environment - something a rebreather can't do.

In short I don't see why a rebreather, complete, should cost more than a couple of grand in production quantity, it should be available off the rack on the day ordered, it should come with a reasonable warranty and a complete user manual including all information necessary to set up and operate it, and I should need nothing more than money to buy one. Have me sign whatever waivers you'd like and make whatever strength of statement you like about what I should do from your perspective - that doesn't bother me a bit - but in the end, support your product well, take my money and leave me alone.

A big part of why I'm building is that the above unit doesn't exist in the market today. That is, I'm determined to PROVE that the above perspective is correct (and perhaps profitable as well!) If I can build a one-off for three times that cost ($6kish) or less than I've proven that I can build thousands at that pricepoint and sell them at a profit.

I may well go out and do exactly that.

When I ran my Internet company I figured out how, through clever engineering and bare-knuckle negotiating with suppliers, to sell dedicated T1 connectivity for half of the "going rate" - and maintain a 40% pretax operating margin for the company as a whole. You can still find archives of what I did out there in '96 - look up "Cheapernet T1" sometime on Google. I was called every name in the book for that, but we owned that segment of the business market from its introduction until I sold the company - it was all about customer value, and finding ways to innovate so that you could undercut your competitors and literally steal their customer base right out from under them. When it was announced at Comdex in Chicago we were mobbed with sales, while our competition - who was caught flat-footed by our announcement and couldn't figure out how we managed to price it like that resorted to trying to argue that we'd be out of business in a month for selling below cost. In truth it was they who had the problem... with sales...

That's bizness, and complaining when it happens to you is kinda like peeing in your beer and then complaining that it tastes bad. If you were looking where you pointed that thing, you wouldn't have had the problem

__________________
"A venturesome minority will always be eager to get off on their own, and no obstacles should be placed in their path; let them take risks for Godsake, let them get lost, sunburnt, stranded, drowned, eaten by bears, buried alive under avalanches - that is the right and privilege of any free American."
http://www.denninger.net
http://www.diversunion.org/liability.htm - Fix the Diving Cert racket

Jim

All,

Just a few thoughts ....

What cost years of R&D? What cost Interllectual Property? What cost, Time, Energy, Frustration, and all that goes with .... lack of family time, divorce?

Respect where respect is due - that is was Rebreather most designers have gone through to get RB's where they are now.

That is what a lot who follow won't have to go through.

Fair do's to Martin Parker, Leon & Kevin Gurr & good luck if they make some money on the way - I wouldn't of bought an Inspo and later a Meg if I thought they were more expensive than the alternative - gas costs, time (when in a situation under water - what cost life??) and all the work that went into the development. I for one don't like the big multi nationals because they kill the little guys and then innovation .... and guess what - when they have the monopoly .... you get f@*k@d anyways!!

So go ahead - make your 'Made In China' alternative - I know a lot of people who won't buy it - British & American manufacturing can't be beaten - except on price - and regardless of what some say - it ain't always 'bout price !!!

It is also worth remembering that a manufacturing business is a lot more complex and has many more demands than your average Dot.Com ! Good Luck.

__________________
Jim Spence