Meg O2 Manual Injection

tflaris · 10th July 2008, 19:13

Which side Left or right counter lung is the manual O2 injection?

I understood it to be on the left coounter lung reading an article by Stuart in the Library. Has anyone changed it to the right side? Due to diving on the Evolution and established muscle memory I am debating on changing the counter lungs to minic right side rich mix and left side lean. Any thoughts from those who have tried this? Or counter arguments why you would not recommend this.

PaulTG2 · 10th July 2008, 19:55

Hello,

My Meg came from the factory with the manual O2 injection on the right counter lung... which on the Meg is the inhalation counter lung.

The cons are that that O2 doesn't get mixed so you can get a slug of high O2 gas on the next inhalation. On the other side, you get the O2 to your your mouth quickly when you manually inject O2.

Lots of arguments for either configuration from what I've seen discussed on RBW.

-p

Celia_E · 10th July 2008, 20:14

I see that you are asking a few questions about the meg, are you contemplating the purchase of one?

Just curious...

Dive safe,

Celia

pwl4476 · 10th July 2008, 20:37

I use the 4th cell option on my Meg and that goes on the right counterlung. I didn't like the fact that when flying manually the O2 spiked cell #4. (I always fly manual and use the electronics for backup.) I also don't like the shot of high PO2 that Paul mentioned, so I moved the manual O2 injection to the left side. I like it much better. I can do everything with either hand, everything is in the same area for ease of access, and I feel better knowing that I'm getting a more gradual increase in PO2.For me it's a more logical, convenient set-up.Paul

jkaterenchuk · 10th July 2008, 21:18

Quote: (Originally Posted by tflaris)

Which side Left or right counter lung is the manual O2 injection?

I understood it to be on the left coounter lung reading an article by Stuart in the Library. Has anyone changed it to the right side? Due to diving on the Evolution and established muscle memory I am debating on changing the counter lungs to minic right side rich mix and left side lean. Any thoughts from those who have tried this? Or counter arguments why you would not recommend this.

Given what seems to be your pending purchase. I would suggest you spend a few hours reading all the posts in the Meg forum. This particular question has been asked and answered before along with many others. It was valuable for me and stimulated alot of thoughts on differences with my other CCR. Your learning curve will be accelerated.

John

**Gill Envy** · 11th July 2008, 02:27

I personally don't mind much when the same old questions get asked again, i'm surprised how new information comes out of the process and how reluctant people are to add it to an old thread.

my mCCR meg came with the o2 add on the right side, the same as my old evo but the loop is reversed so it's the inhale side is on the right, which is where the rub is. as has been said, there are good arguments for either side but the question is which arguments are more germane and I can only guess after listening intently to both sides. When experts disagree, you have to make your own call.

Going from an eCCR to an mCCR has meant getting out of the set point mindset, which has definitely altered the way I prioritize high vs low po2. eCCR divers think it terms of set points, divergence may suggest malfunction while mCCR divers and manual eCCR divers are forced into the habit of optimal po2 zones, expecting vacillations, thinking about po2 more fluidly. From my communications with instructors and some of the other gurus around here, I've concluded the body is relatively tolerant to short even significant spikes above 1.3, and very intollerant of even short drops in po2 below .16 ... but there are no guarantees.

It would seem that the meg design is in response to hypoxia being much higher on the probability scale as a cause of fatalities than o2 toxicity and in that respect under certain circumstances, adding o2 liberally, having your po2 rise before you can even tell how much, can be a life saver (particularly on an uncontrolled ascent)... a poor callibration leading to high po2 throughout a dive is a totally different matter, IMHO... but none of this is an exacting science.

your tolerances are vascillating/an unknown moving target, there is a lag time between an increase in po2 in the loop and the time it takes for the cells to show the change and even for the gas exchange into the blood and from the blood to other tissue compartments, the po2 on the screen isn't even necessarily equal to what it is in your body anyway, add the potential for rapid pressure changes due to depth changes to the mix and you have crossed over from science into the art of guestimation.

Since short spikes in po2 don't *seem* to be that much of an issue I've stuck with leaving it on the right and not changing anything. I've heard of swapping dill and o2 (eek), even changing the direction of the loop... I just wouldn't go there without a lot of knowledgeable help.

If it were me, going back and forth between units, I think keeping it consistent between units would be one of the highest priorities because it's the muscle memory that is going to save you in a pinch. stay with the way it's designed or reverse the loop direction with the proper guidance!

probably best to stick with the way it's designed till you get some experience, your fears may turn out to be paper tigers. and by all means get proper cross over training, the vision and the Apex are totally different beasts!!

hell, i'd bin the solenoid and add a CFO before worrying about this issue, but hey that's just me.

tflaris · 11th July 2008, 04:15

[quote=Celia_E;197158]I see that you are asking a few questions about the meg, are you contemplating the purchase of one?

Just curious...

Dive safe,

Celia[/QUOTE/]

I purchased a used unit.

tflaris · 11th July 2008, 04:19

Quote: (Originally Posted by jkaterenchuk)

Given what seems to be your pending purchase. I would suggest you spend a few hours reading all the posts in the Meg forum. This particular question has been asked and answered before along with many others. It was valuable for me and stimulated alot of thoughts on differences with my other CCR. Your learning curve will be accelerated.

John

I am on page 18 of the meg posting

zoo_diver · 11th July 2008, 04:21

Quote: (Originally Posted by Gill Envy)

I personally don't mind much when the same old questions get asked again, i'm surprised how new information comes out of the process and how reluctant people are to add it to an old thread.

my mCCR meg came with the o2 add on the right side, the same as my old evo but the loop is reversed so it's the inhale side is on the right, which is where the rub is. as has been said, there are good arguments for either side but the question is which arguments are more germane and I can only guess after listening intently to both sides. When experts disagree, you have to make your own call.

Going from an eCCR to an mCCR has meant getting out of the set point mindset, which has definitely altered the way I prioritize high vs low po2. eCCR divers think it terms of set points, divergence may suggest malfunction while mCCR divers and manual eCCR divers are forced into the habit of optimal po2 zones, expecting vacillations, thinking about po2 more fluidly. From my communications with instructors and some of the other gurus around here, I've concluded the body is relatively tolerant to short even significant spikes above 1.3, and very intollerant of even short drops in po2 below .16 ... but there are no guarantees.

It would seem that the meg design is in response to hypoxia being much higher on the probability scale as a cause of fatalities than o2 toxicity and in that respect under certain circumstances, adding o2 liberally, having your po2 rise before you can even tell how much, can be a life saver (particularly on an uncontrolled ascent)... a poor callibration leading to high po2 throughout a dive is a totally different matter, IMHO... but none of this is an exacting science.

your tolerances are vascillating/an unknown moving target, there is a lag time between an increase in po2 in the loop and the time it takes for the cells to show the change and even for the gas exchange into the blood and from the blood to other tissue compartments, the po2 on the screen isn't even necessarily equal to what it is in your body anyway, add the potential for rapid pressure changes due to depth changes to the mix and you have crossed over from science into the art of guestimation.

Since short spikes in po2 don't *seem* to be that much of an issue I've stuck with leaving it on the right and not changing anything. I've heard of swapping dill and o2 (eek), even changing the direction of the loop... I just wouldn't go there without a lot of knowledgeable help.

If it were me, going back and forth between units, I think keeping it consistent between units would be one of the highest priorities because it's the muscle memory that is going to save you in a pinch. stay with the way it's designed or reverse the loop direction with the proper guidance!

probably best to stick with the way it's designed till you get some experience, your fears may turn out to be paper tigers. and by all means get proper cross over training, the vision and the Apex are totally different beasts!!

hell, i'd bin the solenoid and add a CFO before worrying about this issue, but hey that's just me.

Good comments.

I had this conversation with some folks about a year ago and after a bunch of hours on the unit I tried moving it to the left. I didnt like it -- felt like I was naked in church and things werent smooth. After a few hours I went back to the the right -- rich is right right? Knock on wood I've never had an issue on the right and I don't have a 4th cell so I'm not too worried about PO2 spikes on my sensors.

**NEDIVER** · 11th July 2008, 05:34

I asked this question with some great answers, as I am still debating my next CCR purchase.

O2 Slug Discussion

10th July 2008, 19:13	#1 (permalink)
tflaris God save the Queen Current Rebreather/s: Evolution Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Evolution Megalodon Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Neptune Beach, Florida Posts: 274	Meg O2 Manual Injection Which side Left or right counter lung is the manual O2 injection? I understood it to be on the left coounter lung reading an article by Stuart in the Library. Has anyone changed it to the right side? Due to diving on the Evolution and established muscle memory I am debating on changing the counter lungs to minic right side rich mix and left side lean. Any thoughts from those who have tried this? Or counter arguments why you would not recommend this. __________________ "Except for this one, I have come to the conclusion that all generalizations are false" -Jim Hayes
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10th July 2008, 19:55	#2 (permalink)
PaulTG2 RBW Member Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Virginia, USA Posts: 517	Re: Meg O2 Manual Injection Hello, My Meg came from the factory with the manual O2 injection on the right counter lung... which on the Meg is the inhalation counter lung. The cons are that that O2 doesn't get mixed so you can get a slug of high O2 gas on the next inhalation. On the other side, you get the O2 to your your mouth quickly when you manually inject O2. Lots of arguments for either configuration from what I've seen discussed on RBW. -p __________________ Paul's first law states that the safety of an activity is determined by how forgiving of mistakes the activity is. Paul's second law states that the difference between an adventurer and an explorer is whether the doing or the learning comes first.
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10th July 2008, 20:14	#3 (permalink)
Celia_E RBW Member Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: back from paradise... Posts: 113	Re: Meg O2 Manual Injection I see that you are asking a few questions about the meg, are you contemplating the purchase of one? Just curious... Dive safe, Celia __________________ "We are now a two Meg family!!!"
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10th July 2008, 20:37	#4 (permalink)
pwl4476 RBW Member Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Olathe, KS Posts: 113	Re: Meg O2 Manual Injection I use the 4th cell option on my Meg and that goes on the right counterlung. I didn't like the fact that when flying manually the O2 spiked cell #4. (I always fly manual and use the electronics for backup.) I also don't like the shot of high PO2 that Paul mentioned, so I moved the manual O2 injection to the left side. I like it much better. I can do everything with either hand, everything is in the same area for ease of access, and I feel better knowing that I'm getting a more gradual increase in PO2.For me it's a more logical, convenient set-up.Paul
(Offline)

10th July 2008, 21:18	#5 (permalink)
jkaterenchuk . Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Megalodon Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: May 2006 Location: Lititz, PA Posts: 1,092	Re: Meg O2 Manual Injection Quote: (Originally Posted by tflaris) Which side Left or right counter lung is the manual O2 injection? I understood it to be on the left coounter lung reading an article by Stuart in the Library. Has anyone changed it to the right side? Due to diving on the Evolution and established muscle memory I am debating on changing the counter lungs to minic right side rich mix and left side lean. Any thoughts from those who have tried this? Or counter arguments why you would not recommend this. Given what seems to be your pending purchase. I would suggest you spend a few hours reading all the posts in the Meg forum. This particular question has been asked and answered before along with many others. It was valuable for me and stimulated alot of thoughts on differences with my other CCR. Your learning curve will be accelerated. John
(Offline)

11th July 2008, 02:27	#6 (permalink)
Gill Envy Shearwater Copis Divers Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Evolution Other CCR Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: seattle Posts: 1,347	Re: Meg O2 Manual Injection I personally don't mind much when the same old questions get asked again, i'm surprised how new information comes out of the process and how reluctant people are to add it to an old thread. my mCCR meg came with the o2 add on the right side, the same as my old evo but the loop is reversed so it's the inhale side is on the right, which is where the rub is. as has been said, there are good arguments for either side but the question is which arguments are more germane and I can only guess after listening intently to both sides. When experts disagree, you have to make your own call. Going from an eCCR to an mCCR has meant getting out of the set point mindset, which has definitely altered the way I prioritize high vs low po2. eCCR divers think it terms of set points, divergence may suggest malfunction while mCCR divers and manual eCCR divers are forced into the habit of optimal po2 zones, expecting vacillations, thinking about po2 more fluidly. From my communications with instructors and some of the other gurus around here, I've concluded the body is relatively tolerant to short even significant spikes above 1.3, and very intollerant of even short drops in po2 below .16 ... but there are no guarantees. It would seem that the meg design is in response to hypoxia being much higher on the probability scale as a cause of fatalities than o2 toxicity and in that respect under certain circumstances, adding o2 liberally, having your po2 rise before you can even tell how much, can be a life saver (particularly on an uncontrolled ascent)... a poor callibration leading to high po2 throughout a dive is a totally different matter, IMHO... but none of this is an exacting science. your tolerances are vascillating/an unknown moving target, there is a lag time between an increase in po2 in the loop and the time it takes for the cells to show the change and even for the gas exchange into the blood and from the blood to other tissue compartments, the po2 on the screen isn't even necessarily equal to what it is in your body anyway, add the potential for rapid pressure changes due to depth changes to the mix and you have crossed over from science into the art of guestimation. Since short spikes in po2 don't seem to be that much of an issue I've stuck with leaving it on the right and not changing anything. I've heard of swapping dill and o2 (eek), even changing the direction of the loop... I just wouldn't go there without a lot of knowledgeable help. If it were me, going back and forth between units, I think keeping it consistent between units would be one of the highest priorities because it's the muscle memory that is going to save you in a pinch. stay with the way it's designed or reverse the loop direction with the proper guidance! probably best to stick with the way it's designed till you get some experience, your fears may turn out to be paper tigers. and by all means get proper cross over training, the vision and the Apex are totally different beasts!! hell, i'd bin the solenoid and add a CFO before worrying about this issue, but hey that's just me. __________________ Gill Envy ...Because I wasn't born with gills! ><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>
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11th July 2008, 04:15	#7 (permalink)
tflaris God save the Queen Current Rebreather/s: Evolution Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Evolution Megalodon Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Neptune Beach, Florida Posts: 274	Re: Meg O2 Manual Injection [quote=Celia_E;197158]I see that you are asking a few questions about the meg, are you contemplating the purchase of one? Just curious... Dive safe, Celia[/QUOTE/] I purchased a used unit. __________________ "Except for this one, I have come to the conclusion that all generalizations are false" -Jim Hayes
(Offline)

11th July 2008, 04:19	#8 (permalink)
tflaris God save the Queen Current Rebreather/s: Evolution Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Evolution Megalodon Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Neptune Beach, Florida Posts: 274	Re: Meg O2 Manual Injection Quote: (Originally Posted by jkaterenchuk) Given what seems to be your pending purchase. I would suggest you spend a few hours reading all the posts in the Meg forum. This particular question has been asked and answered before along with many others. It was valuable for me and stimulated alot of thoughts on differences with my other CCR. Your learning curve will be accelerated. John I am on page 18 of the meg posting __________________ "Except for this one, I have come to the conclusion that all generalizations are false" -Jim Hayes
(Offline)

11th July 2008, 04:21	#9 (permalink)
zoo_diver Is it snack time yet? Current Rebreather/s: Evolution Megalodon Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Megalodon Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Suffolk, VA Posts: 259	Re: Meg O2 Manual Injection Quote: (Originally Posted by Gill Envy) I personally don't mind much when the same old questions get asked again, i'm surprised how new information comes out of the process and how reluctant people are to add it to an old thread. my mCCR meg came with the o2 add on the right side, the same as my old evo but the loop is reversed so it's the inhale side is on the right, which is where the rub is. as has been said, there are good arguments for either side but the question is which arguments are more germane and I can only guess after listening intently to both sides. When experts disagree, you have to make your own call. Going from an eCCR to an mCCR has meant getting out of the set point mindset, which has definitely altered the way I prioritize high vs low po2. eCCR divers think it terms of set points, divergence may suggest malfunction while mCCR divers and manual eCCR divers are forced into the habit of optimal po2 zones, expecting vacillations, thinking about po2 more fluidly. From my communications with instructors and some of the other gurus around here, I've concluded the body is relatively tolerant to short even significant spikes above 1.3, and very intollerant of even short drops in po2 below .16 ... but there are no guarantees. It would seem that the meg design is in response to hypoxia being much higher on the probability scale as a cause of fatalities than o2 toxicity and in that respect under certain circumstances, adding o2 liberally, having your po2 rise before you can even tell how much, can be a life saver (particularly on an uncontrolled ascent)... a poor callibration leading to high po2 throughout a dive is a totally different matter, IMHO... but none of this is an exacting science. your tolerances are vascillating/an unknown moving target, there is a lag time between an increase in po2 in the loop and the time it takes for the cells to show the change and even for the gas exchange into the blood and from the blood to other tissue compartments, the po2 on the screen isn't even necessarily equal to what it is in your body anyway, add the potential for rapid pressure changes due to depth changes to the mix and you have crossed over from science into the art of guestimation. Since short spikes in po2 don't seem to be that much of an issue I've stuck with leaving it on the right and not changing anything. I've heard of swapping dill and o2 (eek), even changing the direction of the loop... I just wouldn't go there without a lot of knowledgeable help. If it were me, going back and forth between units, I think keeping it consistent between units would be one of the highest priorities because it's the muscle memory that is going to save you in a pinch. stay with the way it's designed or reverse the loop direction with the proper guidance! probably best to stick with the way it's designed till you get some experience, your fears may turn out to be paper tigers. and by all means get proper cross over training, the vision and the Apex are totally different beasts!! hell, i'd bin the solenoid and add a CFO before worrying about this issue, but hey that's just me. Good comments. I had this conversation with some folks about a year ago and after a bunch of hours on the unit I tried moving it to the left. I didnt like it -- felt like I was naked in church and things werent smooth. After a few hours I went back to the the right -- rich is right right? Knock on wood I've never had an issue on the right and I don't have a 4th cell so I'm not too worried about PO2 spikes on my sensors.
(Offline)

11th July 2008, 05:34	#10 (permalink)
NEDIVER Sic Semper Tyrannis Current Rebreather/s: Evolution Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Nashua, NH Posts: 213	Re: Meg O2 Manual Injection I asked this question with some great answers, as I am still debating my next CCR purchase. O2 Slug Discussion __________________ -Tom- "slow is smooth, and smooth is fast" TM "Insanity is repeating the same thing over and over again, expecting different results" Albert Einstein
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