COPIS or APECS

Jim · 25th June 2008, 16:33

If you dive below the 80m mark on regular occassions (the COPIS marketed upper limit?) then the APECS is the way to go IMO.

The whole eCCR v mCCR has been done to death elsewhere - It's a personal choice & anyone's opinion is just that, an opinion - it's worth diddly outside your own little world. I like manual (keeps me alert) and I like eCCR backing me up - have always felt it was safer than complaecent human backing up electronics that WILL fail - especially when said human has been too complaecent to practice the neccessary motor skills !!!

So JDI ???, you do what you gotta do & I'll do the same. Just as I would never buy a Boxter and will happily stick with the 911 Turbo S - doesn't make me a bad person right ?

So to clarify - you ain't right, neither am I. Leave it at that.

jdicediver · 25th June 2008, 16:42

Quote: (Originally Posted by tecdivertraining)

I had them all,

Wow...REALLY? Looks like you've had all the rebreathers, too...

Quote: (Originally Posted by tecdivertraining)

No, I dive it as an ECCR 90% of the time, and advise all students to have good manual motor skill and stay in tune with their unit,

Hmmm...that is not what I heard in my Mod 1...but hey, I haven't done as much CCR or teaching as you...

Quote: (Originally Posted by tecdivertraining)

their quite some differences in diving a manual to an ECCR

...ya think?

Quote: (Originally Posted by tecdivertraining)

I did not say it was, but what your saying is take a Ford escort and max power it, not the same as a Porsche…

Never once did I say that, all I said was...

Quote: (Originally Posted by jdicediver)

Matt, why would I pay for all the excess baggage on an eCCR, when for a lot less I can dive the same unit manually, like you too do with an APECS.

Besides, no-one has died on a COPIS that I am aware of...

and...when APECS 3 comes out, I can buy one of those as well.

Quote: (Originally Posted by jdicediver)

No Matt, it was not a silly thing to say...simple fact...and a constant across the universe in the world of CCR diving...mCCR HAS HAD LESS FATALITIES...

Quote: (Originally Posted by tecdivertraining)

I think it was, My opinion.

Yes, yes it certainly was...

Quote: (Originally Posted by tecdivertraining)

Nope because I cannot be that bothered to get into a bitch fight with you.

No, never did I have that intent, I thought that I was being quite logical as a matter of fact... and actually, I WAS going to ask what the Mod 2 training on the Meg was worth over in Thailand...is that taught on a COPIS? Mod 3? but...now I am uncertain that is what I want...

LOL, PADI has standards too...and somewhere I think I had read that RBW was going to have an Instructor feedback database...

Jim · 25th June 2008, 16:49

Judging by the words with your Avatar - Single / Burdoned with cash - you shouldn't be allowed anywhere near Thailand ....

I think Matt will agree.

jdicediver · 25th June 2008, 16:54

Quote: (Originally Posted by Jim)

Judging by the words with your Avatar - Single / Burdoned with cash - you shouldn't be allowed anywhere near Thailand ....

I think Matt will agree.

LOL, that, too, is funny...and the correct spelling is BURDENED.
Yet, amazingly enough, some of us do have values and morals EVEN when we are in Rome!

Jim · 25th June 2008, 17:01

Quote: (Originally Posted by jdicediver)

LOL, that, too, is funny...and the correct spelling is BURDENED.

Yet, amazingly enough, some of us do have values and morals EVEN when we are in Rome!

Thanks for the spelling lesson, will definitely make me a better diver ! With regards your morals ...... doth protest too much me thinks.

Still wouldn't let you past Bankok immigration.

jdicediver · 25th June 2008, 17:11

Quote: (Originally Posted by Jim)

Thanks for the spelling lesson, will definitely make me a better diver !

You are very welcome...

Quote: (Originally Posted by Jim)

With regards your morals ...... doth protest too much me thinks.

Protest...never...debate...always. I am sorry...I had thought that many times I had proven my worth in that arena. Please forgive me should I have come across as any less worthy of anything short of Sainthood.

Quote: (Originally Posted by Jim)

Still wouldn't let you past Bankok immigration.

It looks like Ferrari's and 911 Turbo S's are mainstream in Bangkok...and as a result, I surmise that almost anything...can be bought in Thailand, including certification...but of that, I am certain you are already aware.

**wedivebc** · 25th June 2008, 19:09

Quote: (Originally Posted by Jim)

Judging by the words with your Avatar - Single / Burdoned with cash - you shouldn't be allowed anywhere near Thailand ....

I think Matt will agree.

I disagree. I am sure JDI can find a nice Kahtoey to take care of both those problems.

jdicediver · 25th June 2008, 20:06

Quote: (Originally Posted by wedivebc)

I disagree. I am sure JDI can find a nice Kahtoey to take care of both those problems.

LOL...I am certain I could as well, yet would I want to...look at the types of characters that hang out in Thailand under the guise of a CCR diver....

**Gill Envy** · 25th June 2008, 20:11

I am very curious to hear more from folks who have put considerable hours diving on both m and e-CCR's, how many of us are there? If there are roughly 1/10th the number of mCCR divers out there, then I"m guessing the number of folks who have put extensive hours on both types is an even smaller fraction of the rebreatherworld. If there are more folks out there that either dive a copis or apecs and have put significant hours on an alternate "e" or mCCR of any brand, even better if it's copis and apecs, then i'd sure like to hear about it. I know for myself I could not really speak to the differences adequately until I had gotten to a decent level of proficiency with each. I'm guessing the cross over of "e" to "m" is relatively uncommon as of yet and that is where the difference really shows up, IMHO. I get the impression that there are a lot of mCCR divers who are totally sold that it's the best way to go and a lot of eCCR divers who are sold that it's the best way to go, but few who have extensive hours on both... I would think it's these folks who would have the most relevant feedback on the original query in comparison and I'd like to hear from more of them.

As for the depth limitation and style of diving comparison, the broad application of mCCR's is years behind that of eCCR's mainly due to the fact that only recently have mCCR's really made it out in the market in large numbers so a difference in what they're being used for at this point is to be expected. the applications of mCCR's do appear to be shifting rapidly as more mCCR's are cranked out but it will still be a while before we have a better feel for where the trend is going and why and thus a more apples to apples comparison in depth and complexity of diving as more mCCR divers get to the point where they are pushing the experience and practice curve. mCCR divers are venturing deeper and finding ways around some of the challenges, even some videographers. Weather that means eventually there will be just as many mCCR divers doing just as deep and complicated dives as eCCR divers is something only time will tell. I"m not attached to the trend going in any particular direction, I just wish there was a way that folks could more easily find out what each is like, say a hundred hours into it before having to make such a hefty investment in training and unit.

**wedivebc** · 25th June 2008, 20:26

Quote: (Originally Posted by Gill Envy)

I am very curious to hear more from folks who have put considerable hours diving on both m and e-CCR's, how many of us are there? If there are roughly 1/10th the number of mCCR divers out there, then I"m guessing the number of folks who have put extensive hours on both types is an even smaller fraction of the rebreatherworld. If there are more folks out there that either dive a copis or apecs and have put significant hours on an alternate "e" or mCCR of any brand, even better if it's copis and apecs, then i'd sure like to hear about it. I know for myself I could not really speak to the differences adequately until I had gotten to a decent level of proficiency with each. I'm guessing the cross over of "e" to "m" is relatively uncommon as of yet and that is where the difference really shows up, IMHO. I get the impression that there are a lot of mCCR divers who are totally sold that it's the best way to go and a lot of eCCR divers who are sold that it's the best way to go, but few who have extensive hours on both... I would think it's these folks who would have the most relevant feedback on the original query in comparison and I'd like to hear from more of them.

As for the depth limitation and style of diving comparison, the broad application of mCCR's is years behind that of eCCR's mainly due to the fact that only recently have mCCR's really made it out in the market in large numbers so a difference in what they're being used for at this point is to be expected. the applications of mCCR's do appear to be shifting rapidly as more mCCR's are cranked out but it will still be a while before we have a better feel for where the trend is going and why and thus a more apples to apples comparison in depth and complexity of diving as more mCCR divers get to the point where they are pushing the experience and practice curve. mCCR divers are venturing deeper and finding ways around some of the challenges, even some videographers. Weather that means eventually there will be just as many mCCR divers doing just as deep and complicated dives as eCCR divers is something only time will tell. I"m not attached to the trend going in any particular direction, I just wish there was a way that folks could more easily find out what each is like, say a hundred hours into it before having to make such a hefty investment in training and unit.

I had a pre production copis for a couple of months to try. Although I was pretty new to the meg then I found it was easy to dive as I had just sold my sport kiss to buy the Apeks meg. I did like the fact that I could control my bouyancy swings as in I knew if I was going to be ascending or descending and could aticipate whether an O2 injection would be needed. No electronic algorithm can predict what you are intending to do (yet).
There are a number of things I like about the copis but there were some things with the original that were a deal breaker. Lack of HUD, lack of PPO2 monitoring redundancy, and the depth issue was a small detractor even though it is not an issue for 99% of my diving.
I have to admit I am getting lazy with my original resolve to run my rig in manual and only use the solenoid as a safety net. I would probably buy a copis II is I were in the market for a new meg but I am happy with my Apeks 2.01 for now.

25th June 2008, 16:33	#31 (permalink)
Jim Lovable Cockhead ! Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Purley, UK Posts: 152	Re: COPIS or APECS If you dive below the 80m mark on regular occassions (the COPIS marketed upper limit?) then the APECS is the way to go IMO. The whole eCCR v mCCR has been done to death elsewhere - It's a personal choice & anyone's opinion is just that, an opinion - it's worth diddly outside your own little world. I like manual (keeps me alert) and I like eCCR backing me up - have always felt it was safer than complaecent human backing up electronics that WILL fail - especially when said human has been too complaecent to practice the neccessary motor skills !!! So JDI ???, you do what you gotta do & I'll do the same. Just as I would never buy a Boxter and will happily stick with the 911 Turbo S - doesn't make me a bad person right ? So to clarify - you ain't right, neither am I. Leave it at that. __________________ Jim Spence Last edited by Jim : 25th June 2008 at 16:38.
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25th June 2008, 16:42	#32 (permalink)
jdicediver John Harcus Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Calgary, Alberta Posts: 276	Re: COPIS or APECS Quote: (Originally Posted by tecdivertraining) I had them all, Wow...REALLY? Looks like you've had all the rebreathers, too... Quote: (Originally Posted by tecdivertraining) No, I dive it as an ECCR 90% of the time, and advise all students to have good manual motor skill and stay in tune with their unit, Hmmm...that is not what I heard in my Mod 1...but hey, I haven't done as much CCR or teaching as you... Quote: (Originally Posted by tecdivertraining) their quite some differences in diving a manual to an ECCR ...ya think? Quote: (Originally Posted by tecdivertraining) I did not say it was, but what your saying is take a Ford escort and max power it, not the same as a Porsche… Never once did I say that, all I said was... Quote: (Originally Posted by jdicediver) Matt, why would I pay for all the excess baggage on an eCCR, when for a lot less I can dive the same unit manually, like you too do with an APECS. Besides, no-one has died on a COPIS that I am aware of... and...when APECS 3 comes out, I can buy one of those as well. Quote: (Originally Posted by jdicediver) No Matt, it was not a silly thing to say...simple fact...and a constant across the universe in the world of CCR diving...mCCR HAS HAD LESS FATALITIES... Quote: (Originally Posted by tecdivertraining) I think it was, My opinion. Yes, yes it certainly was... Quote: (Originally Posted by tecdivertraining) Nope because I cannot be that bothered to get into a bitch fight with you. No, never did I have that intent, I thought that I was being quite logical as a matter of fact... and actually, I WAS going to ask what the Mod 2 training on the Meg was worth over in Thailand...is that taught on a COPIS? Mod 3? but...now I am uncertain that is what I want... LOL, PADI has standards too...and somewhere I think I had read that RBW was going to have an Instructor feedback database... __________________ Regards; "Some people shouldn't dive...others shouldn't even get wet". Last edited by jdicediver : 25th June 2008 at 16:45.
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25th June 2008, 16:49	#33 (permalink)
Jim Lovable Cockhead ! Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Purley, UK Posts: 152	Re: COPIS or APECS Judging by the words with your Avatar - Single / Burdoned with cash - you shouldn't be allowed anywhere near Thailand .... I think Matt will agree. __________________ Jim Spence
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25th June 2008, 16:54	#34 (permalink)
jdicediver John Harcus Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Calgary, Alberta Posts: 276	Re: COPIS or APECS Quote: (Originally Posted by Jim) Judging by the words with your Avatar - Single / Burdoned with cash - you shouldn't be allowed anywhere near Thailand .... I think Matt will agree. LOL, that, too, is funny...and the correct spelling is BURDENED. Yet, amazingly enough, some of us do have values and morals EVEN when we are in Rome! __________________ Regards; "Some people shouldn't dive...others shouldn't even get wet".
(Online)

25th June 2008, 17:01	#35 (permalink)
Jim Lovable Cockhead ! Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Purley, UK Posts: 152	Re: COPIS or APECS Quote: (Originally Posted by jdicediver) LOL, that, too, is funny...and the correct spelling is BURDENED. Yet, amazingly enough, some of us do have values and morals EVEN when we are in Rome! Thanks for the spelling lesson, will definitely make me a better diver ! With regards your morals ...... doth protest too much me thinks. Still wouldn't let you past Bankok immigration. __________________ Jim Spence
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25th June 2008, 17:11	#36 (permalink)
jdicediver John Harcus Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Calgary, Alberta Posts: 276	Re: COPIS or APECS Quote: (Originally Posted by Jim) Thanks for the spelling lesson, will definitely make me a better diver ! You are very welcome... Quote: (Originally Posted by Jim) With regards your morals ...... doth protest too much me thinks. Protest...never...debate...always. I am sorry...I had thought that many times I had proven my worth in that arena. Please forgive me should I have come across as any less worthy of anything short of Sainthood. Quote: (Originally Posted by Jim) Still wouldn't let you past Bankok immigration. It looks like Ferrari's and 911 Turbo S's are mainstream in Bangkok...and as a result, I surmise that almost anything...can be bought in Thailand, including certification...but of that, I am certain you are already aware. __________________ Regards; "Some people shouldn't dive...others shouldn't even get wet".
(Online)

25th June 2008, 19:09	#37 (permalink)
wedivebc Dave Tomblin Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Other CCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Vancouver Island BC Canada Posts: 1,508	Re: COPIS or APECS Quote: (Originally Posted by Jim) Judging by the words with your Avatar - Single / Burdoned with cash - you shouldn't be allowed anywhere near Thailand .... I think Matt will agree. I disagree. I am sure JDI can find a nice Kahtoey to take care of both those problems. __________________ Cheers, Dave.... Man is the only animal burdened with the knowledge he will eventually die
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25th June 2008, 20:06	#38 (permalink)
jdicediver John Harcus Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Calgary, Alberta Posts: 276	Re: COPIS or APECS Quote: (Originally Posted by wedivebc) I disagree. I am sure JDI can find a nice Kahtoey to take care of both those problems. LOL...I am certain I could as well, yet would I want to...look at the types of characters that hang out in Thailand under the guise of a CCR diver.... __________________ Regards; "Some people shouldn't dive...others shouldn't even get wet".
(Online)

25th June 2008, 20:11	#39 (permalink)
Gill Envy Shearwater Copis Divers Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Evolution Other CCR Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: seattle Posts: 1,347	Re: COPIS or APECS I am very curious to hear more from folks who have put considerable hours diving on both m and e-CCR's, how many of us are there? If there are roughly 1/10th the number of mCCR divers out there, then I"m guessing the number of folks who have put extensive hours on both types is an even smaller fraction of the rebreatherworld. If there are more folks out there that either dive a copis or apecs and have put significant hours on an alternate "e" or mCCR of any brand, even better if it's copis and apecs, then i'd sure like to hear about it. I know for myself I could not really speak to the differences adequately until I had gotten to a decent level of proficiency with each. I'm guessing the cross over of "e" to "m" is relatively uncommon as of yet and that is where the difference really shows up, IMHO. I get the impression that there are a lot of mCCR divers who are totally sold that it's the best way to go and a lot of eCCR divers who are sold that it's the best way to go, but few who have extensive hours on both... I would think it's these folks who would have the most relevant feedback on the original query in comparison and I'd like to hear from more of them. As for the depth limitation and style of diving comparison, the broad application of mCCR's is years behind that of eCCR's mainly due to the fact that only recently have mCCR's really made it out in the market in large numbers so a difference in what they're being used for at this point is to be expected. the applications of mCCR's do appear to be shifting rapidly as more mCCR's are cranked out but it will still be a while before we have a better feel for where the trend is going and why and thus a more apples to apples comparison in depth and complexity of diving as more mCCR divers get to the point where they are pushing the experience and practice curve. mCCR divers are venturing deeper and finding ways around some of the challenges, even some videographers. Weather that means eventually there will be just as many mCCR divers doing just as deep and complicated dives as eCCR divers is something only time will tell. I"m not attached to the trend going in any particular direction, I just wish there was a way that folks could more easily find out what each is like, say a hundred hours into it before having to make such a hefty investment in training and unit. __________________ Gill Envy ...Because I wasn't born with gills! ><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>
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25th June 2008, 20:26	#40 (permalink)
wedivebc Dave Tomblin Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Other CCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Vancouver Island BC Canada Posts: 1,508	Re: COPIS or APECS Quote: (Originally Posted by Gill Envy) I am very curious to hear more from folks who have put considerable hours diving on both m and e-CCR's, how many of us are there? If there are roughly 1/10th the number of mCCR divers out there, then I"m guessing the number of folks who have put extensive hours on both types is an even smaller fraction of the rebreatherworld. If there are more folks out there that either dive a copis or apecs and have put significant hours on an alternate "e" or mCCR of any brand, even better if it's copis and apecs, then i'd sure like to hear about it. I know for myself I could not really speak to the differences adequately until I had gotten to a decent level of proficiency with each. I'm guessing the cross over of "e" to "m" is relatively uncommon as of yet and that is where the difference really shows up, IMHO. I get the impression that there are a lot of mCCR divers who are totally sold that it's the best way to go and a lot of eCCR divers who are sold that it's the best way to go, but few who have extensive hours on both... I would think it's these folks who would have the most relevant feedback on the original query in comparison and I'd like to hear from more of them. As for the depth limitation and style of diving comparison, the broad application of mCCR's is years behind that of eCCR's mainly due to the fact that only recently have mCCR's really made it out in the market in large numbers so a difference in what they're being used for at this point is to be expected. the applications of mCCR's do appear to be shifting rapidly as more mCCR's are cranked out but it will still be a while before we have a better feel for where the trend is going and why and thus a more apples to apples comparison in depth and complexity of diving as more mCCR divers get to the point where they are pushing the experience and practice curve. mCCR divers are venturing deeper and finding ways around some of the challenges, even some videographers. Weather that means eventually there will be just as many mCCR divers doing just as deep and complicated dives as eCCR divers is something only time will tell. I"m not attached to the trend going in any particular direction, I just wish there was a way that folks could more easily find out what each is like, say a hundred hours into it before having to make such a hefty investment in training and unit. I had a pre production copis for a couple of months to try. Although I was pretty new to the meg then I found it was easy to dive as I had just sold my sport kiss to buy the Apeks meg. I did like the fact that I could control my bouyancy swings as in I knew if I was going to be ascending or descending and could aticipate whether an O2 injection would be needed. No electronic algorithm can predict what you are intending to do (yet). There are a number of things I like about the copis but there were some things with the original that were a deal breaker. Lack of HUD, lack of PPO2 monitoring redundancy, and the depth issue was a small detractor even though it is not an issue for 99% of my diving. I have to admit I am getting lazy with my original resolve to run my rig in manual and only use the solenoid as a safety net. I would probably buy a copis II is I were in the market for a new meg but I am happy with my Apeks 2.01 for now. __________________ Cheers, Dave.... Man is the only animal burdened with the knowledge he will eventually die
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