COPIS or APECS

zoo_diver · 20th June 2008, 13:41

I am diving a 2.7 unit and love it. With a Pursuit, HUD, and COPIS handset all piped into the unit it's hard to go wrong.

Instead of having a computer do it, I like having to relying on myself to keep the loop at its desired state.

On a different forum, w ripley recently noted a great excerpt from the book Rasing the Dead:

"...Extreme divers are not thrill-seekers. This is a sport of controlled tension, not of cathartic release. A dive is an exercise in task management, patiently sorting through one after the other, and the payoff is not so much an adrenaline fix as the quiet sense of a job well done..."

I would suggest purchasing the unit that will compliment both your diving and personality type.

Good luck!

scubagrunt · 20th June 2008, 14:02

Quote: (Originally Posted by zoo_diver)

I am diving a 2.7 unit and love it. With a Pursuit, HUD, and COPIS handset all piped into the unit it's hard to go wrong.

Instead of having a computer do it, I like having to relying on myself to keep the loop at its desired state.

On a different forum, w ripley recently noted a great excerpt from the book Rasing the Dead:

"...Extreme divers are not thrill-seekers. This is a sport of controlled tension, not of cathartic release. A dive is an exercise in task management, patiently sorting through one after the other, and the payoff is not so much an adrenaline fix as the quiet sense of a job well done..."

I would suggest purchasing the unit that will compliment both your diving and personality type.

Good luck!

dito

scubagrunt · 20th June 2008, 14:02

Quote: (Originally Posted by jo_c)

Hi Ricky

What you need to do is have a couple of dives on a Copis to see what you think. I'm sure we can arrange that

I'm a big fan of the Copis as I don't see the need for the electronics, but everyone has their own preference. My set-up is slightly different, but I can replace any of the electronics in minutes, I have a spare Po2 display which doubles as a separate constant po2 computer.
I never need to send my head back for repairs/upgrades, I can upgrade the handsets over the internet, and worst case I have to send a handset in for repair. Well, I have a spare, so I can keep diving.

dito too and you save big $$

Ricky2703 · 20th June 2008, 19:28

Thanks for the input, Food for thought

**Gill Envy** · 20th June 2008, 21:34

Quote: (Originally Posted by jo_c)

Hi Ricky

What you need to do is have a couple of dives on a Copis to see what you think. I'm sure we can arrange that

oh wouldn't it be great if you could put a few hours on either and know what it's going to be like hundreds of hours into it... sadly we lack that luxury when purchasing, at least early on.

There is the risk benefit analysis, that we could go back and forth on and everyone would ultimately say it's inconclusive...there is already plenty to read on that... 800+ units - one entrampment related OOA fatality, who knows what it means.

Quote: (Originally Posted by jo_c)

I'm a big fan of the Copis as I don't see the need for the electronics, but everyone has their own preference. My set-up is slightly different, but I can replace any of the electronics in minutes, I have a spare Po2 display which doubles as a separate constant po2 computer.
I never need to send my head back for repairs/upgrades, I can upgrade the handsets over the internet, and worst case I have to send a handset in for repair. Well, I have a spare, so I can keep diving.

...so I can keep diving!!! ditto, totally agree with the above.

Your chances of being able to find a solution to an issue on a trip on a copis is much higher. I had two trips spoiled from a malfunctioning solenoid when I owned an eCCR and I'll never forget the dissappointment and hastle and expense and wait time. Chances are an mCCR will never have to go back to the manufacturer, but be more prepared to be your own mechanic.

After having put about a hundred hours on a vision and now about a hundred hours on a shearwater copis, I'd have to say that the difference in manual injection is so dramatic it's hard to know where to start.

Expanding the envelope on a manual system is slower going. It took a good year before the annoyance of having to inject manually and the trepidations that come with it turned into a smooth art form. But that extra study yeilded a stronger foundation in muscle memory for when the sh#t hit's the fan. While it was slow going initially I am finding that there are nuances to po2 that I just never had to pay attention to while diving auto pilot and now that I have had to learn it all that much deeper, I feel more able to react appropriately to bad situations. I also have a lot more options with respect to po2 on ascent, stair stepping from depths without blowing so much o2... I have more control over my injection and that just feels good.

the downside: I"m still trying to figure out what the downsides are, realizing that fanaticism often blinds one from seeing the downsides and that in fact the more experience I have the less I realize I have, still just beginning in this sport, but frankly I have found very few downsides. The MFO has it's quarks and a needle valve is calling, but it's mostly little annoyances. I really don't get the sentiment that a solenoid is more necessary the deeper you go, frankly if you can't trust a safety net in the shallows, why rely on it at depth? I would argue that there is no evidence that eCCR's are safer, that the "safety net myth" really does not bear out in reality. A friend just completed a 350 FFW dive the other day with offboard o2 and had no complaints. Sure it was a touchdown dive, and yes there are lots more scenarios to argue, but it is an example of going deeper on an mCCR.

the upside to a set piont controller: it boils down to convenience and need IMHO. If you are someone who really enjoys the convenience of auto set point diving, that is potentially a valid reason in and of its self to go eCCR, I won't knock that, as long as you are aware of the risks, namely the attitude and habits it can foster and the added failure points and inconvenience of a controller melt down in east jesus. If you are doing something while diving that really requires extended hands free function, then there too I can see a valid argument for diving eCCR... filming, special ops, etc.

The bottom line is that there are lots of valid ways of diving and folks have their own personal reasons for the directions they choose.

tecdivertraining · 20th June 2008, 22:19

Quote: (Originally Posted by Gill Envy)

oh wouldn't it be great if you could put a few hours on either and know what it's going to be like hundreds of hours into it... sadly we lack that luxury when purchasing, at least early on.

There is the risk benefit analysis, that we could go back and forth on and everyone would ultimately say it's inconclusive...there is already plenty to read on that... 800+ units - one entrampment related OOA fatality, who knows what it means.

...so I can keep diving!!! ditto, totally agree with the above.

Your chances of being able to find a solution to an issue on a trip on a copis is much higher. I had two trips spoiled from a malfunctioning solenoid when I owned an eCCR and I'll never forget the dissappointment and hastle and expense and wait time. Chances are an mCCR will never have to go back to the manufacturer, but be more prepared to be your own mechanic.

After having put about a hundred hours on a vision and now about a hundred hours on a shearwater copis, I'd have to say that the difference in manual injection is so dramatic it's hard to know where to start.

Expanding the envelope on a manual system is slower going. It took a good year before the annoyance of having to inject manually and the trepidations that come with it turned into a smooth art form. But that extra study yeilded a stronger foundation in muscle memory for when the sh#t hit's the fan. While it was slow going initially I am finding that there are nuances to po2 that I just never had to pay attention to while diving auto pilot and now that I have had to learn it all that much deeper, I feel more able to react appropriately to bad situations. I also have a lot more options with respect to po2 on ascent, stair stepping from depths without blowing so much o2... I have more control over my injection and that just feels good.

the downside: I"m still trying to figure out what the downsides are, realizing that fanaticism often blinds one from seeing the downsides and that in fact the more experience I have the less I realize I have, still just beginning in this sport, but frankly I have found very few downsides. The MFO has it's quarks and a needle valve is calling, but it's mostly little annoyances. I really don't get the sentiment that a solenoid is more necessary the deeper you go, frankly if you can't trust a safety net in the shallows, why rely on it at depth? I would argue that there is no evidence that eCCR's are safer, that the "safety net myth" really does not bear out in reality. A friend just completed a 350 FFW dive the other day with offboard o2 and had no complaints. Sure it was a touchdown dive, and yes there are lots more scenarios to argue, but it is an example of going deeper on an mCCR.

the upside to a set piont controller: it boils down to convenience and need IMHO. If you are someone who really enjoys the convenience of auto set point diving, that is potentially a valid reason in and of its self to go eCCR, I won't knock that, as long as you are aware of the risks, namely the attitude and habits it can foster and the added failure points and inconvenience of a controller melt down in east jesus. If you are doing something while diving that really requires extended hands free function, then there too I can see a valid argument for diving eCCR... filming, special ops, etc.

The bottom line is that there are lots of valid ways of diving and folks have their own personal reasons for the directions they choose.

Great Post and full of great feedback, have some green.

I must stop posting rubbish and put a bit more effort into my reply's

Ricky2703 · 20th June 2008, 23:50

Quote: (Originally Posted by tecdivertraining)

Great Post and full of great feedback, have some green.

I must stop posting rubbish and put a bit more effort into my reply's

But it is also good to laugh.

Pawel Szopinski · 22nd June 2008, 11:53

Ricky, I hope that I have helped you made your mind up on our dive yesterday.

Twain · 23rd June 2008, 23:28

Taking Matt's car comparison a bit too far, you could say MCCR vs ECCR is a bit like automatic vs stick transmissions in cars.

With both an automatic and a stick transmission you can monitor the system (tachometer). With both you can manually control if you need to (putting the lever in "1" instead of "drive"). Same thing for MCCRs and ECCRs.

However, (1) in a stick transmission you're manually controlling the engine on a constant basis so you're more attuned to the system when something changes. (2) Sticks are a simpler system than automatics, less to break and less to repair. (3) With a stick, you need to actually know what you're doing otherwise you can't get out of the driveway. (4) Stick transmissions cost less. I think all four of these aspects are similar for MCCRs vs ECCRs.

Stick versus automatic is a personal preference, so it's probably the same with MCCR and ECCR. I drive a stick transmission and dive an MCCR.

tecdivertraining · 24th June 2008, 02:30

Yes its personal,

In London rush hour for a week, driving with a "stick" and clutch I'm sure you could be quickly persuaded auto is the way to go. But sure a bimmble on a sunday morning on the open road and your "stick might be fun

20th June 2008, 13:41	#11 (permalink)
zoo_diver Is it snack time yet? Current Rebreather/s: Evolution Megalodon Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Megalodon Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Suffolk, VA Posts: 259	Re: COPIS or APECS I am diving a 2.7 unit and love it. With a Pursuit, HUD, and COPIS handset all piped into the unit it's hard to go wrong. Instead of having a computer do it, I like having to relying on myself to keep the loop at its desired state. On a different forum, w ripley recently noted a great excerpt from the book Rasing the Dead: "...Extreme divers are not thrill-seekers. This is a sport of controlled tension, not of cathartic release. A dive is an exercise in task management, patiently sorting through one after the other, and the payoff is not so much an adrenaline fix as the quiet sense of a job well done..." I would suggest purchasing the unit that will compliment both your diving and personality type. Good luck!
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20th June 2008, 14:02	#12 (permalink)
scubagrunt CCR Diva Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Megalodon Classic Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Other SCR Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Inspiration Classic Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Sport Kiss Classic Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Other SCR Join Date: May 2005 Location: Washington Posts: 441	Re: COPIS or APECS Quote: (Originally Posted by zoo_diver) I am diving a 2.7 unit and love it. With a Pursuit, HUD, and COPIS handset all piped into the unit it's hard to go wrong. Instead of having a computer do it, I like having to relying on myself to keep the loop at its desired state. On a different forum, w ripley recently noted a great excerpt from the book Rasing the Dead: "...Extreme divers are not thrill-seekers. This is a sport of controlled tension, not of cathartic release. A dive is an exercise in task management, patiently sorting through one after the other, and the payoff is not so much an adrenaline fix as the quiet sense of a job well done..." I would suggest purchasing the unit that will compliment both your diving and personality type. Good luck! dito __________________ "No good deed goes unpunished!" www.silentscuba.com
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20th June 2008, 14:02	#13 (permalink)
scubagrunt CCR Diva Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Megalodon Classic Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Other SCR Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Inspiration Classic Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Sport Kiss Classic Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Other SCR Join Date: May 2005 Location: Washington Posts: 441	Re: COPIS or APECS Quote: (Originally Posted by jo_c) Hi Ricky What you need to do is have a couple of dives on a Copis to see what you think. I'm sure we can arrange that I'm a big fan of the Copis as I don't see the need for the electronics, but everyone has their own preference. My set-up is slightly different, but I can replace any of the electronics in minutes, I have a spare Po2 display which doubles as a separate constant po2 computer. I never need to send my head back for repairs/upgrades, I can upgrade the handsets over the internet, and worst case I have to send a handset in for repair. Well, I have a spare, so I can keep diving. dito too and you save big $$ __________________ "No good deed goes unpunished!" www.silentscuba.com
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20th June 2008, 19:28	#14 (permalink)
Ricky2703 Ricky Cantley Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: East London Posts: 25	Re: COPIS or APECS Thanks for the input, Food for thought
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20th June 2008, 21:34	#15 (permalink)
Gill Envy Shearwater Copis Divers Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Evolution Other CCR Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: seattle Posts: 1,347	Re: COPIS or APECS Quote: (Originally Posted by jo_c) Hi Ricky What you need to do is have a couple of dives on a Copis to see what you think. I'm sure we can arrange that oh wouldn't it be great if you could put a few hours on either and know what it's going to be like hundreds of hours into it... sadly we lack that luxury when purchasing, at least early on. There is the risk benefit analysis, that we could go back and forth on and everyone would ultimately say it's inconclusive...there is already plenty to read on that... 800+ units - one entrampment related OOA fatality, who knows what it means. Quote: (Originally Posted by jo_c) I'm a big fan of the Copis as I don't see the need for the electronics, but everyone has their own preference. My set-up is slightly different, but I can replace any of the electronics in minutes, I have a spare Po2 display which doubles as a separate constant po2 computer. I never need to send my head back for repairs/upgrades, I can upgrade the handsets over the internet, and worst case I have to send a handset in for repair. Well, I have a spare, so I can keep diving. ...so I can keep diving!!! ditto, totally agree with the above. Your chances of being able to find a solution to an issue on a trip on a copis is much higher. I had two trips spoiled from a malfunctioning solenoid when I owned an eCCR and I'll never forget the dissappointment and hastle and expense and wait time. Chances are an mCCR will never have to go back to the manufacturer, but be more prepared to be your own mechanic. After having put about a hundred hours on a vision and now about a hundred hours on a shearwater copis, I'd have to say that the difference in manual injection is so dramatic it's hard to know where to start. Expanding the envelope on a manual system is slower going. It took a good year before the annoyance of having to inject manually and the trepidations that come with it turned into a smooth art form. But that extra study yeilded a stronger foundation in muscle memory for when the sh#t hit's the fan. While it was slow going initially I am finding that there are nuances to po2 that I just never had to pay attention to while diving auto pilot and now that I have had to learn it all that much deeper, I feel more able to react appropriately to bad situations. I also have a lot more options with respect to po2 on ascent, stair stepping from depths without blowing so much o2... I have more control over my injection and that just feels good. the downside: I"m still trying to figure out what the downsides are, realizing that fanaticism often blinds one from seeing the downsides and that in fact the more experience I have the less I realize I have, still just beginning in this sport, but frankly I have found very few downsides. The MFO has it's quarks and a needle valve is calling, but it's mostly little annoyances. I really don't get the sentiment that a solenoid is more necessary the deeper you go, frankly if you can't trust a safety net in the shallows, why rely on it at depth? I would argue that there is no evidence that eCCR's are safer, that the "safety net myth" really does not bear out in reality. A friend just completed a 350 FFW dive the other day with offboard o2 and had no complaints. Sure it was a touchdown dive, and yes there are lots more scenarios to argue, but it is an example of going deeper on an mCCR. the upside to a set piont controller: it boils down to convenience and need IMHO. If you are someone who really enjoys the convenience of auto set point diving, that is potentially a valid reason in and of its self to go eCCR, I won't knock that, as long as you are aware of the risks, namely the attitude and habits it can foster and the added failure points and inconvenience of a controller melt down in east jesus. If you are doing something while diving that really requires extended hands free function, then there too I can see a valid argument for diving eCCR... filming, special ops, etc. The bottom line is that there are lots of valid ways of diving and folks have their own personal reasons for the directions they choose. __________________ Gill Envy ...Because I wasn't born with gills! ><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°> Last edited by Gill Envy : 20th June 2008 at 21:57.
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20th June 2008, 22:19	#16 (permalink)
tecdivertraining EXPLORER Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Ouroboros Dolphin Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Dolphin Join Date: May 2005 Location: Phuket, Thailand Posts: 531	Re: COPIS or APECS Quote: (Originally Posted by Gill Envy) oh wouldn't it be great if you could put a few hours on either and know what it's going to be like hundreds of hours into it... sadly we lack that luxury when purchasing, at least early on. There is the risk benefit analysis, that we could go back and forth on and everyone would ultimately say it's inconclusive...there is already plenty to read on that... 800+ units - one entrampment related OOA fatality, who knows what it means. ...so I can keep diving!!! ditto, totally agree with the above. Your chances of being able to find a solution to an issue on a trip on a copis is much higher. I had two trips spoiled from a malfunctioning solenoid when I owned an eCCR and I'll never forget the dissappointment and hastle and expense and wait time. Chances are an mCCR will never have to go back to the manufacturer, but be more prepared to be your own mechanic. After having put about a hundred hours on a vision and now about a hundred hours on a shearwater copis, I'd have to say that the difference in manual injection is so dramatic it's hard to know where to start. Expanding the envelope on a manual system is slower going. It took a good year before the annoyance of having to inject manually and the trepidations that come with it turned into a smooth art form. But that extra study yeilded a stronger foundation in muscle memory for when the sh#t hit's the fan. While it was slow going initially I am finding that there are nuances to po2 that I just never had to pay attention to while diving auto pilot and now that I have had to learn it all that much deeper, I feel more able to react appropriately to bad situations. I also have a lot more options with respect to po2 on ascent, stair stepping from depths without blowing so much o2... I have more control over my injection and that just feels good. the downside: I"m still trying to figure out what the downsides are, realizing that fanaticism often blinds one from seeing the downsides and that in fact the more experience I have the less I realize I have, still just beginning in this sport, but frankly I have found very few downsides. The MFO has it's quarks and a needle valve is calling, but it's mostly little annoyances. I really don't get the sentiment that a solenoid is more necessary the deeper you go, frankly if you can't trust a safety net in the shallows, why rely on it at depth? I would argue that there is no evidence that eCCR's are safer, that the "safety net myth" really does not bear out in reality. A friend just completed a 350 FFW dive the other day with offboard o2 and had no complaints. Sure it was a touchdown dive, and yes there are lots more scenarios to argue, but it is an example of going deeper on an mCCR. the upside to a set piont controller: it boils down to convenience and need IMHO. If you are someone who really enjoys the convenience of auto set point diving, that is potentially a valid reason in and of its self to go eCCR, I won't knock that, as long as you are aware of the risks, namely the attitude and habits it can foster and the added failure points and inconvenience of a controller melt down in east jesus. If you are doing something while diving that really requires extended hands free function, then there too I can see a valid argument for diving eCCR... filming, special ops, etc. The bottom line is that there are lots of valid ways of diving and folks have their own personal reasons for the directions they choose. Great Post and full of great feedback, have some green. I must stop posting rubbish and put a bit more effort into my reply's __________________ Mathew Partridge Technical Director Pro-Tech Dive College www.protechdivers.com www.tech-ccr.com
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20th June 2008, 23:50	#17 (permalink)
Ricky2703 Ricky Cantley Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: East London Posts: 25	Re: COPIS or APECS Quote: (Originally Posted by tecdivertraining) Great Post and full of great feedback, have some green. I must stop posting rubbish and put a bit more effort into my reply's But it is also good to laugh.
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22nd June 2008, 11:53	#18 (permalink)
Pawel Szopinski RBW Member Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: London, UK Posts: 136	Re: COPIS or APECS Ricky, I hope that I have helped you made your mind up on our dive yesterday. __________________ "It's better to live one hour as a tiger than a whole lifetime as a worm." The Cat
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23rd June 2008, 23:28	#19 (permalink)
Twain New Member Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Boston Posts: 31	Re: COPIS or APECS Taking Matt's car comparison a bit too far, you could say MCCR vs ECCR is a bit like automatic vs stick transmissions in cars. With both an automatic and a stick transmission you can monitor the system (tachometer). With both you can manually control if you need to (putting the lever in "1" instead of "drive"). Same thing for MCCRs and ECCRs. However, (1) in a stick transmission you're manually controlling the engine on a constant basis so you're more attuned to the system when something changes. (2) Sticks are a simpler system than automatics, less to break and less to repair. (3) With a stick, you need to actually know what you're doing otherwise you can't get out of the driveway. (4) Stick transmissions cost less. I think all four of these aspects are similar for MCCRs vs ECCRs. Stick versus automatic is a personal preference, so it's probably the same with MCCR and ECCR. I drive a stick transmission and dive an MCCR.
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24th June 2008, 02:30	#20 (permalink)
tecdivertraining EXPLORER Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Ouroboros Dolphin Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Dolphin Join Date: May 2005 Location: Phuket, Thailand Posts: 531	Re: COPIS or APECS Yes its personal, In London rush hour for a week, driving with a "stick" and clutch I'm sure you could be quickly persuaded auto is the way to go. But sure a bimmble on a sunday morning on the open road and your "stick might be fun __________________ Mathew Partridge Technical Director Pro-Tech Dive College www.protechdivers.com www.tech-ccr.com
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