COPIS question

**wedivebc** · 22nd February 2008, 17:39

Quote: (Originally Posted by Simon A)

Why would you re calibrate a unit that was already calibrated correctly? My hammerhead can go weeks between calibrations. The calibration gets checked before every dive (air and pure O2) but it doesn't get re calibrated unless doesn't match the known gases.
HTH
Simon A

And likewise I have not needed to calbrate my APECs meg in a couple of months.

**Gill Envy** · 22nd February 2008, 18:03

Honestly I think it's a travesty that folks see the mCCR version of any rebreather as something that they'd have to settle for due to financial constraints. Nothing could be further from the truth in my mind. I don't think that the cost of a rebreather should have anything to do with your choice, if you want the more expensive version, wait till you have saved up the clams, but don't let the fact that mCCR's are less expensive have you fall into the thinking trap that they are in some way inferior to eCCR's. Honestly I think they are the wave of the future, and I know that sounds fanatical, but it's how I feel. You just watch, someday the question will be: "should I start out with the automated version and "upgrade" to the manual later?"

Don't get me wrong, I understand the draw to eCCR's and believe they have their merits (and I have yet to do every type of diving so I could be missing something) but I don't believe they deserve the market dominance they currently have, at least not until someone comes up with two things: fail safe electronics (an oxymoron) and a way to adequately counter the siren call of the autopilot mentality. In my opinion, the only way to truly entrain yourself with the monitoring interval adequate to catch just about any failure mode, is to never get in the habit of relying on a set point controller in the first place. After a year+ of diving eCCR's and 8 months of diving mCCR's, I say scrap the set point controller altogether, it promotes bad habits and entails a lot more potential points of failure... save yourself potential for a lot of frustration, and perhaps something even more precious.

One of the hardest things about picking a rig that will serve your needs for years to come is that it's very hard to know what you will want to do with it once you get experience under your belt... best to have options, you just never know where you'll be setting your sights once this new world of diving is at your fingertips! The Copis is one of the most versatile options, you just don't know until you try, you might find that all this bravado for mCCR's is a bunch of "hu ha", you'll still have more than just one choice even then to "upgrade" to an eCCR version. If I have it right you will be able to upgrade to a HH or Shearwater eCCR controller without even having to buy a new head, and of course there's the Apex 2 and maybe even someday the apex III.

The thing I like most about the meg, eCCR or mCCR, is how much the design honors the potential for evolving preferences of just about any diver. Weather it's upgrading or retrofitting you can customize it to your hearts content without having to sell it and retrain on another unit, just to achieve a new set of priorities.

The bullet proof build quality is impressive and hard to beat. From diving it so far I believe the claims that the meg can handle the throws of shore diving, kayak diving, cave diving and wreck diving alike.

To give you an idea of my latest configuration, here is a link to my mods (though I now am using a Shearwater Pursuite, soon to be in the photos):
Installation of the Shearwater GF and HUD to the Copis Megalodon Rebreather - a photoset on Flickr

The two mods i'm looking into now are the addition of a needle valve for o2 addition and a radial scrubber.

hope that helps!

a paradox of rebreather diving:
We start out struggling to choose the most reliable system, only to find that the biggest challenge is convincing ourselves never to trust it!

If you go with a Copis, I don't think you will be disappointed.

good luck with your choice!

g

Quote: (Originally Posted by scubandreams)

Howdy folks,

I am in the process of researching rebreathers so that hopefully one day I will be able to call one my own.

I am currently looking at several of them, but essentially my budget precludes me from going all out new ECCR. However some of my criteria include for the unit to be simple, reliable, and tough as a tank and from everything I have read the Meg falls into that category. Which brings me back to the budget issue.

The question is pretty simple, if I bought a COPIS...I can then later later later upgrade to an Apecs (or HH or whatever) head and turn the COPIS into a ECCR (I am not sure I even want to go that route, MCCR maybe what fits my diving style the best). --- True?

If true, how much would such an upgrade cost?

COPIS and CK are on the top of my list by the way.

Thanks in advance,

Sherman

**SeaBass** · 26th February 2008, 07:40

Quote: (Originally Posted by Gill Envy)

To give you an idea of my latest configuration, here is a link to my mods (though I now am using a Shearwater Pursuite, soon to be in the photos):
Installation of the Shearwater GF and HUD to the Copis Megalodon Rebreather - a photoset on Flickr

g

Hi Gill,

Nice write up on adding the Shearwater. Did you leave the original PO2 monitoring in place? I saw the cable in your head but didn't see the 3rd wire in any of your molex connectors.

Thom

**Gill Envy** · 26th February 2008, 15:37

Thanks Thom, glad you liked it.

For now, the stock handset has been left in place. I just strap the hadset to the dilluent bottle and forget about it. It's disconnected from the o2 cells but the molex are there, tucked between the cells ready to use should something go wrong with either the shearwater HUD or the Pursuit. In this way it's not a secondary or tertiary, it's a back up, not to save the dive but more to save a trip, as you'd need to get back to the surface open the head, and put the batteries in and plug it in to the cells before it would be useful.

Looking back on it, I'd also be pretty comfortable just adding the shearwater HUD to the copis and having a stand alone deco computer. The shearwater HUD is a brilliant piece of kit for the mCCR diver!

g

Quote: (Originally Posted by SeaBass)

Hi Gill,

Nice write up on adding the Shearwater. Did you leave the original PO2 monitoring in place? I saw the cable in your head but didn't see the 3rd wire in any of your molex connectors.

Thom

**SeaBass** · 26th February 2008, 23:06

Quote: (Originally Posted by Gill Envy)

Looking back on it, I'd also be pretty comfortable just adding the shearwater HUD to the copis and having a stand alone deco computer. The shearwater HUD is a brilliant piece of kit for the mCCR diver!

Have you thought of adding a Fischer to the head? Wasn't sure if anyone had done it but it seems like that would be a good way of switching back and forth.

Did you purchase the HUD seperate or as part of a kit?

Thom

**Gill Envy** · 27th February 2008, 05:59

Quote: (Originally Posted by SeaBass)

Have you thought of adding a Fischer to the head? Wasn't sure if anyone had done it but it seems like that would be a good way of switching back and forth.

Did you purchase the HUD seperate or as part of a kit?

Thom

yes, I have thought about adding a fisher inside the head, just haven't gotten around to it. My experience with fischer connectors so far makes me a bit leery of adding another one to the mix though. So far it's just been easier to leave the stock unit in place. Some kind of connector would make it possible to remove it and leave it in the spares box rather than have it on my back. But as with the evolution, I was leery of modifying the unit in a way that could not easily be undone until i was sure I was keeping it for the long run, - re-selling a modified unit seemed like it might be problematic. At this point I'm quite sure i'm going to hold on to the copis for quite a while so who knows, i may just cut out the stock unit before long and make it so that it can be easily added back if the need arises. My rule of thumb has become that I must have two independent po2 displays at all times, and a third that can be fitted in case one of the two craps out. With an mCCR that is not so hard to achieve.

The shearwater HUD is a stand alone computer with a dedicated brain. It can fulfill the need for redundancy, and frankly it's become my primary as it gives real time po2 on all three cells simultaneously. It can be purchased separately and Bruce can fit it with the proper threading so that it can be easily installed in one of the available ports in the copis head. If you click on the photos in the flikr set you can see and read the step by step details in the slide show.

hope that helps,
g

DamselDiver · 2nd March 2008, 00:31

"Honestly I think it's a travesty that folks see the mCCR version of any rebreather as something that they'd have to settle for due to financial constraints. Nothing could be further from the truth in my mind."

I couldn't agree more. I thought long and hard about which rebreather to get and I never even considered an eCCR. I ended up getting a Kiss Sport because it met my requirements with a small form factor, mostly recreational diving and simple to operate and clean.

As a systems engineer solenoids as life support scare the crap out of me. Batteries, sensors that control the loop as opposed to just monitoring the loop, and just the nature of electronics in a marine environment pretty much ruled out eCCR for me.

I considered a Copis Meg, but training and dive partner logistics made the Kiss Sport a no brainer for me. I know people that dive Kiss units and are quite happy with them, I don't personally know anyone diving a Meg. I only have a few hours on the Kiss, but every dive I feel more and more comfortable on the unit. I would love to dive a Copis Meg with a radial scrubber to compare it to the Kiss, but I am really happy with my decision. If I was diving an eCCR I would be even more paranoid than I already am about the system failing and that would take much of the enjoyment from rebreather diving away from me.

In the end it is up to the individual diver if they feel they are more secure with the unit controlling the loop or if they feel more comfortable controlling the loop manually. The KISS valve makes mCCR even more attractive IMHO.

Safe diving.

22nd February 2008, 17:39	#11 (permalink)
wedivebc Dave Tomblin Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Other CCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Vancouver Island BC Canada Posts: 1,444	Re: COPIS question Quote: (Originally Posted by Simon A) Why would you re calibrate a unit that was already calibrated correctly? My hammerhead can go weeks between calibrations. The calibration gets checked before every dive (air and pure O2) but it doesn't get re calibrated unless doesn't match the known gases. HTH Simon A And likewise I have not needed to calbrate my APECs meg in a couple of months. __________________ Cheers, Dave.... Man is the only animal burdened with the knowledge he will eventually die
(Offline)

22nd February 2008, 18:03	#12 (permalink)
Gill Envy Shearwater Copis Divers Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Evolution Other CCR Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: seattle Posts: 1,314	Re: COPIS question Honestly I think it's a travesty that folks see the mCCR version of any rebreather as something that they'd have to settle for due to financial constraints. Nothing could be further from the truth in my mind. I don't think that the cost of a rebreather should have anything to do with your choice, if you want the more expensive version, wait till you have saved up the clams, but don't let the fact that mCCR's are less expensive have you fall into the thinking trap that they are in some way inferior to eCCR's. Honestly I think they are the wave of the future, and I know that sounds fanatical, but it's how I feel. You just watch, someday the question will be: "should I start out with the automated version and "upgrade" to the manual later?" Don't get me wrong, I understand the draw to eCCR's and believe they have their merits (and I have yet to do every type of diving so I could be missing something) but I don't believe they deserve the market dominance they currently have, at least not until someone comes up with two things: fail safe electronics (an oxymoron) and a way to adequately counter the siren call of the autopilot mentality. In my opinion, the only way to truly entrain yourself with the monitoring interval adequate to catch just about any failure mode, is to never get in the habit of relying on a set point controller in the first place. After a year+ of diving eCCR's and 8 months of diving mCCR's, I say scrap the set point controller altogether, it promotes bad habits and entails a lot more potential points of failure... save yourself potential for a lot of frustration, and perhaps something even more precious. One of the hardest things about picking a rig that will serve your needs for years to come is that it's very hard to know what you will want to do with it once you get experience under your belt... best to have options, you just never know where you'll be setting your sights once this new world of diving is at your fingertips! The Copis is one of the most versatile options, you just don't know until you try, you might find that all this bravado for mCCR's is a bunch of "hu ha", you'll still have more than just one choice even then to "upgrade" to an eCCR version. If I have it right you will be able to upgrade to a HH or Shearwater eCCR controller without even having to buy a new head, and of course there's the Apex 2 and maybe even someday the apex III. The thing I like most about the meg, eCCR or mCCR, is how much the design honors the potential for evolving preferences of just about any diver. Weather it's upgrading or retrofitting you can customize it to your hearts content without having to sell it and retrain on another unit, just to achieve a new set of priorities. The bullet proof build quality is impressive and hard to beat. From diving it so far I believe the claims that the meg can handle the throws of shore diving, kayak diving, cave diving and wreck diving alike. To give you an idea of my latest configuration, here is a link to my mods (though I now am using a Shearwater Pursuite, soon to be in the photos): Installation of the Shearwater GF and HUD to the Copis Megalodon Rebreather - a photoset on Flickr The two mods i'm looking into now are the addition of a needle valve for o2 addition and a radial scrubber. hope that helps! a paradox of rebreather diving: We start out struggling to choose the most reliable system, only to find that the biggest challenge is convincing ourselves never to trust it! If you go with a Copis, I don't think you will be disappointed. good luck with your choice! g Quote: (Originally Posted by scubandreams) Howdy folks, I am in the process of researching rebreathers so that hopefully one day I will be able to call one my own. I am currently looking at several of them, but essentially my budget precludes me from going all out new ECCR. However some of my criteria include for the unit to be simple, reliable, and tough as a tank and from everything I have read the Meg falls into that category. Which brings me back to the budget issue. The question is pretty simple, if I bought a COPIS...I can then later later later upgrade to an Apecs (or HH or whatever) head and turn the COPIS into a ECCR (I am not sure I even want to go that route, MCCR maybe what fits my diving style the best). --- True? If true, how much would such an upgrade cost? COPIS and CK are on the top of my list by the way. Thanks in advance, Sherman __________________ Gill Envy ...Because I wasn't born with gills! ><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°> Last edited by Gill Envy : 22nd February 2008 at 22:07.
(Offline)

26th February 2008, 07:40	#13 (permalink)
SeaBass Thom Susko Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Ray Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Ray Home Build Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: San Clemente, CA Posts: 232	Re: COPIS question Quote: (Originally Posted by Gill Envy) To give you an idea of my latest configuration, here is a link to my mods (though I now am using a Shearwater Pursuite, soon to be in the photos): Installation of the Shearwater GF and HUD to the Copis Megalodon Rebreather - a photoset on Flickr g Hi Gill, Nice write up on adding the Shearwater. Did you leave the original PO2 monitoring in place? I saw the cable in your head but didn't see the 3rd wire in any of your molex connectors. Thom
(Offline)

26th February 2008, 15:37	#14 (permalink)
Gill Envy Shearwater Copis Divers Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Evolution Other CCR Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: seattle Posts: 1,314	Re: COPIS question Thanks Thom, glad you liked it. For now, the stock handset has been left in place. I just strap the hadset to the dilluent bottle and forget about it. It's disconnected from the o2 cells but the molex are there, tucked between the cells ready to use should something go wrong with either the shearwater HUD or the Pursuit. In this way it's not a secondary or tertiary, it's a back up, not to save the dive but more to save a trip, as you'd need to get back to the surface open the head, and put the batteries in and plug it in to the cells before it would be useful. Looking back on it, I'd also be pretty comfortable just adding the shearwater HUD to the copis and having a stand alone deco computer. The shearwater HUD is a brilliant piece of kit for the mCCR diver! g Quote: (Originally Posted by SeaBass) Hi Gill, Nice write up on adding the Shearwater. Did you leave the original PO2 monitoring in place? I saw the cable in your head but didn't see the 3rd wire in any of your molex connectors. Thom __________________ Gill Envy ...Because I wasn't born with gills! ><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>
(Offline)

26th February 2008, 23:06	#15 (permalink)
SeaBass Thom Susko Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Ray Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Ray Home Build Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: San Clemente, CA Posts: 232	Re: COPIS question Quote: (Originally Posted by Gill Envy) Looking back on it, I'd also be pretty comfortable just adding the shearwater HUD to the copis and having a stand alone deco computer. The shearwater HUD is a brilliant piece of kit for the mCCR diver! Have you thought of adding a Fischer to the head? Wasn't sure if anyone had done it but it seems like that would be a good way of switching back and forth. Did you purchase the HUD seperate or as part of a kit? Thom
(Offline)

27th February 2008, 05:59	#16 (permalink)
Gill Envy Shearwater Copis Divers Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Evolution Other CCR Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: seattle Posts: 1,314	Re: COPIS question Quote: (Originally Posted by SeaBass) Have you thought of adding a Fischer to the head? Wasn't sure if anyone had done it but it seems like that would be a good way of switching back and forth. Did you purchase the HUD seperate or as part of a kit? Thom yes, I have thought about adding a fisher inside the head, just haven't gotten around to it. My experience with fischer connectors so far makes me a bit leery of adding another one to the mix though. So far it's just been easier to leave the stock unit in place. Some kind of connector would make it possible to remove it and leave it in the spares box rather than have it on my back. But as with the evolution, I was leery of modifying the unit in a way that could not easily be undone until i was sure I was keeping it for the long run, - re-selling a modified unit seemed like it might be problematic. At this point I'm quite sure i'm going to hold on to the copis for quite a while so who knows, i may just cut out the stock unit before long and make it so that it can be easily added back if the need arises. My rule of thumb has become that I must have two independent po2 displays at all times, and a third that can be fitted in case one of the two craps out. With an mCCR that is not so hard to achieve. The shearwater HUD is a stand alone computer with a dedicated brain. It can fulfill the need for redundancy, and frankly it's become my primary as it gives real time po2 on all three cells simultaneously. It can be purchased separately and Bruce can fit it with the proper threading so that it can be easily installed in one of the available ports in the copis head. If you click on the photos in the flikr set you can see and read the step by step details in the slide show. hope that helps, g __________________ Gill Envy ...Because I wasn't born with gills! ><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>
(Offline)

2nd March 2008, 00:31	#17 (permalink)
DamselDiver New Member Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: WPB Florida Posts: 12	Re: COPIS question "Honestly I think it's a travesty that folks see the mCCR version of any rebreather as something that they'd have to settle for due to financial constraints. Nothing could be further from the truth in my mind." I couldn't agree more. I thought long and hard about which rebreather to get and I never even considered an eCCR. I ended up getting a Kiss Sport because it met my requirements with a small form factor, mostly recreational diving and simple to operate and clean. As a systems engineer solenoids as life support scare the crap out of me. Batteries, sensors that control the loop as opposed to just monitoring the loop, and just the nature of electronics in a marine environment pretty much ruled out eCCR for me. I considered a Copis Meg, but training and dive partner logistics made the Kiss Sport a no brainer for me. I know people that dive Kiss units and are quite happy with them, I don't personally know anyone diving a Meg. I only have a few hours on the Kiss, but every dive I feel more and more comfortable on the unit. I would love to dive a Copis Meg with a radial scrubber to compare it to the Kiss, but I am really happy with my decision. If I was diving an eCCR I would be even more paranoid than I already am about the system failing and that would take much of the enjoyment from rebreather diving away from me. In the end it is up to the individual diver if they feel they are more secure with the unit controlling the loop or if they feel more comfortable controlling the loop manually. The KISS valve makes mCCR even more attractive IMHO. Safe diving.
(Offline)

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode