O2 & Dil mods for Kiss Classic

O.C.Diver · 7th February 2007, 17:57

Let me start by saying that before I could walk I was modifying my toys. My parents were actually quite amused at some of the mods on my Tonka toy trucks, but that's another story. So after having owned my KC for a month or so and doing a some dives, I figured it was time to start changing stuff. It may be worth noting that I have been "cheating death" on a homebuilt for the last 6 years.

While the KC works quite well as a stock unit, the stainless steel braided hoses are a pain and I absolutely have to have a manual Dil add valve. Also, I like to be able to remove hoses and regs from the unit for easy cleaning.

The first pic shows my rig with the O2 add on rubber hoses on the right. It comes around from the side and attaches to the waist strap near the front where it can be reached with either hand. On the left is my manual Dil add that is plumbed into the 4th cell port of the Rebreather head and fed from the Dil reg. This valve is also mounted to my waist strap in the front where it can be reached with either hand. My pressure gauges come over the top of the rig and clip to my shoulder D-rings, out of the way.

DSCN0065.JPG

This pic shows the fittings on the canister head. The Dil fitting on the left is a street 90 in 1/8" pipe thread with an inflator nipple screwed into it. The O2 fitting on the right is an M&J swivel screwed into the canister with an inflator nipple screwed into the swivel. Both methods work without any drilling or tapping, but I prefer the swivel as it makes it easier to attach the supply hose. The pipe thread fitting will be replaced with a swivel.

DSCN0072.JPG

This pic shows the supply hose (standard inflator hose) attached to the nipple and swivel. Note: I have removed the schraeder valve from this supply hose to eliminate any back pressure. Same for Dil hose.

DSCN0066.JPG

This pic shows the supply hose disconnected. The swivel makes attaching the hose easier.

DSCN0067.JPG

This pic shows the O2 valve with rubber hoses.

DSCN0068.JPG

This pic shows the break down of the adapters and such. Note: The sinter filter on the inlet side of the valve to replace the filter on the original hose.

DSCN0073.JPG

This pic shows my Dil add valve which was made from a generic power inflator. Agents from the CIA infiltrated the "Diveshop of Horrors" years ago and spirited away the original TOP SECRET cad drawings to this valve. Millions of taxpayer dollars were spent refining and producing a small quantity of these valves at the Beaker and Bunsen Honey Do labs of Muppet World. Note: The original valve can be seen here on Dave Sutton's web site.

Inspration Modification

Remember, the best ideas are usually stolen from somewhere else.

Thanks Dave!

DSCN0071.JPG

Lastly, let me touch on my obsession with "plug and play". Both the O2 and my manual Dil add valves are fed through standard inflator hoses. All of my stages whether carried or staged through out a cave dive, have an inflator hoses on them. In addition to being able to add gas to a wing or a drysuit, gas can also be added to my loop. I always carry a stage of Dil (usually 16/50) and on deep dives a stage of 32/25 for deep stops. If I lose my dil on my rebreather, it is a simple matter to plug in my stage of dil through this manual Dil valve.

There has been some discussion recently on RBW about hot Dils which I'm not in favor of. Being able to plug in my 32/25 to replace the O2 in an emergency and dive the rig SCR is a much more appealing idea to me. The last option I'm working on is to add a small (6 cuft) second bottle of O2 to my rig with only an inflator hose on it to plug into my Kiss valve in an emergency.

Special Note: Connecting an inflator hose to the Kiss valve underwater will likely force salt and other contaminants into the valve orifice and filter. It should be considered mandatory to service the valve before the next dive. A small price to pay for survival.

Ted

decoweenie · 7th February 2007, 19:14

Nice mod.

Where can I buy the 2 adapters to screw into the plastic MAV to allow standard SCUBA hoses ? Thanks...

dan140465 · 7th February 2007, 19:32

Ted..............excellent, the light has been turned on blah, blah, blah...........

Thanks for taking the time to photo and post, what a cracking set of mods, exactly what I was looking for.

Where did you get all your adaptors/sinter filter from ?
Every time I email M&J I get zero response

This would be a cracking adition to a possible Kiss Modifications Section / thread ?

Cheers again
Danny

O.C.Diver · 7th February 2007, 19:46

Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie)

Nice mod.

Where can I buy the 2 adapters to screw into the plastic MAV to allow standard SCUBA hoses ? Thanks...

The adapters are 7/16" straight thread o-ring seal male to 3/8" straight thread o-ring seal female. Prior to about 1980 scuba regulators had both HP and LP ports of 3/8' straight thread o-ring seal. The HP port and SPG hose were changed to 7/16" to keep people from screwing LP hoses in HP ports with a resulting bang when the valve was opened and the LP hose went bang.

The adapters were generated so that old SPG hoses (3/8") could be screwed into new regs (7/16").

Trident is just one company that offers them:

http://www.tridentdive.com/Export15.htm

Trident's number for this item is AA50

Note: Most of these adapters now have a very small hole to act as a restricted orifice in case the HP hose fails in an HP application. You need to drill the hole out to at least 1/8".

Ted

O.C.Diver · 7th February 2007, 20:09

Quote: (Originally Posted by dan140465)

Where did you get all your adaptors/sinter filter from ?
Every time I email M&J I get zero response

The Sinter filter was used in a Scubapro tank valve that was produced back in the 1980s. I had a few spares in my parts drawer, not sure if they are still available. The adapters were linked in another post. Try contacting:

OxyCheq ... oxygen analyzers and oxygen sensors

as they are a distributor for M&J. The inflator nipples are available from many sources and can be purchased from Trident below:

http://www.tridentdive.com/Export17.htm

Their part number is AA08-A

Ted

***EBT*** · 7th February 2007, 20:23

Interesting mods, werent you worried about putting your primary gas feeds on via quick disconnects that arent reachable on your dive?

O.C.Diver · 7th February 2007, 20:46

Quote: (Originally Posted by EBT)

Interesting mods, werent you worried about putting your primary gas feeds on via quick disconnects that arent reachable on your dive?

No. First, I always dive with sufficient OC bailout gas. Second they are so recessed between the cylinder and the canister that accidental disconnecting is all but impossible. On my homebuilt I have the same setup although more exposed. With well over 1,000 dives on my homebuilt, I have never had one disconnect on me.

Ted

Philippe GERIN · 7th February 2007, 21:28

Quote: (Originally Posted by O.C.Diver)

This pic shows the supply hose (standard inflator hose) attached to the nipple and swivel. Note: I have removed the schraeder valve from this supply hose to eliminate any back pressure. Same for Dil hose.
Ted

Nice mods Ted, especially the manual dil valve in which you could also plug O2 & run the rig completely "manually" without the help of the MAV/orifice. Same as your comment about *hot diluents*. Same fashion as Gordon's (RIP) snog valve.
I used to run my O2 with inflator hoses as well but with the QD on the first stage side (nipple is attached to the first stage), connection to the filter/MAV inlet via a Swagelok push-on, same on the MAV outlet and QD with the same street elbow/nipple assembly...
I never removed the shraeder valve from the QD and never noticed any back-pressure. Did you notice it or is this in anticipation of a potential problem?
Same here Zak, I've never had any problems with the QDs in about 300 hours but I went back to standard non-QD connections just for the piece of mind before a trip with deeper dives (on my buddies insistence) and left the rig like that since.
Best
Philippe

O.C.Diver · 7th February 2007, 21:57

Quote: (Originally Posted by Philippe GERIN)

Nice mods Ted, especially the manual dil valve in which you could also plug O2 & run the rig completely "manually" without the help of the MAV/orifice. Same as your comment about *hot diluents*. Same fashion as Gordon's (RIP) snog valve.

I thought about running off board O2 in through my manual dil valve and decided not to for 2 reasons. First, that fitting on the canister head is right next to the cells and then the return to diver hose. At 250' I would rather not spike the cells with pure O2 and then breath in a shot of that pure O2. Secondly, if I over spike the loop with O2 through that manual Dil valve, I won't have the Dil hooked up to flush the loop back down (I prefer not to use the ADV for Dil flushes).

Quote: (Originally Posted by Philippe GERIN)

I never removed the shraeder valve from the QD and never noticed any back-pressure. Did you notice it or is this in anticipation of a potential problem?

The manual Dil inflator barrel where it would connect to a 1" diameter wing hose wasn't designed for 140+ psi. I wasn't sure if the possible back pressure could be a problem; so I eliminated it. Since the schraeder valve served no purpose, I eliminated it on the Kiss valve also.

Quote: (Originally Posted by Philippe GERIN)

Same here Zak, I've never had any problems with the QDs in about 300 hours but I went back to standard non-QD connections just for the piece of mind before a trip with deeper dives (on my buddies insistence) and left the rig like that since.

If I was really worried about the QDs, a tie wrap on each would keep the barrel from moving.

Ted

eanxdiver · 7th February 2007, 22:30

Nice work. Thanks for taking the time to detail the mods and supply great pictures too. Have some green!

7th February 2007, 17:57	#1 (permalink)
O.C.Diver Helium Addict Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Classic Kiss Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Salisbury MD USA Summers; Wandering Florida Winters Posts: 260	O2 & Dil mods for Kiss Classic Let me start by saying that before I could walk I was modifying my toys. My parents were actually quite amused at some of the mods on my Tonka toy trucks, but that's another story. So after having owned my KC for a month or so and doing a some dives, I figured it was time to start changing stuff. It may be worth noting that I have been "cheating death" on a homebuilt for the last 6 years. While the KC works quite well as a stock unit, the stainless steel braided hoses are a pain and I absolutely have to have a manual Dil add valve. Also, I like to be able to remove hoses and regs from the unit for easy cleaning. The first pic shows my rig with the O2 add on rubber hoses on the right. It comes around from the side and attaches to the waist strap near the front where it can be reached with either hand. On the left is my manual Dil add that is plumbed into the 4th cell port of the Rebreather head and fed from the Dil reg. This valve is also mounted to my waist strap in the front where it can be reached with either hand. My pressure gauges come over the top of the rig and clip to my shoulder D-rings, out of the way. DSCN0065.JPG This pic shows the fittings on the canister head. The Dil fitting on the left is a street 90 in 1/8" pipe thread with an inflator nipple screwed into it. The O2 fitting on the right is an M&J swivel screwed into the canister with an inflator nipple screwed into the swivel. Both methods work without any drilling or tapping, but I prefer the swivel as it makes it easier to attach the supply hose. The pipe thread fitting will be replaced with a swivel. DSCN0072.JPG This pic shows the supply hose (standard inflator hose) attached to the nipple and swivel. Note: I have removed the schraeder valve from this supply hose to eliminate any back pressure. Same for Dil hose. DSCN0066.JPG This pic shows the supply hose disconnected. The swivel makes attaching the hose easier. DSCN0067.JPG This pic shows the O2 valve with rubber hoses. DSCN0068.JPG This pic shows the break down of the adapters and such. Note: The sinter filter on the inlet side of the valve to replace the filter on the original hose. DSCN0073.JPG This pic shows my Dil add valve which was made from a generic power inflator. Agents from the CIA infiltrated the "Diveshop of Horrors" years ago and spirited away the original TOP SECRET cad drawings to this valve. Millions of taxpayer dollars were spent refining and producing a small quantity of these valves at the Beaker and Bunsen Honey Do labs of Muppet World. Note: The original valve can be seen here on Dave Sutton's web site. Inspration Modification Remember, the best ideas are usually stolen from somewhere else. Thanks Dave! DSCN0071.JPG Lastly, let me touch on my obsession with "plug and play". Both the O2 and my manual Dil add valves are fed through standard inflator hoses. All of my stages whether carried or staged through out a cave dive, have an inflator hoses on them. In addition to being able to add gas to a wing or a drysuit, gas can also be added to my loop. I always carry a stage of Dil (usually 16/50) and on deep dives a stage of 32/25 for deep stops. If I lose my dil on my rebreather, it is a simple matter to plug in my stage of dil through this manual Dil valve. There has been some discussion recently on RBW about hot Dils which I'm not in favor of. Being able to plug in my 32/25 to replace the O2 in an emergency and dive the rig SCR is a much more appealing idea to me. The last option I'm working on is to add a small (6 cuft) second bottle of O2 to my rig with only an inflator hose on it to plug into my Kiss valve in an emergency. Special Note: Connecting an inflator hose to the Kiss valve underwater will likely force salt and other contaminants into the valve orifice and filter. It should be considered mandatory to service the valve before the next dive. A small price to pay for survival. Ted __________________ Consider this my opinion.......sometimes I'm even right, but remember.........YMMV. Ted Green Charter Boat "OC Diver" http://www.ocdiver.com
(Offline)

7th February 2007, 19:14	#2 (permalink)
decoweenie Crash Test Dummy Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cairo Posts: 5,488	Re: O2 & Dil mods for Kiss Classic Nice mod. Where can I buy the 2 adapters to screw into the plastic MAV to allow standard SCUBA hoses ? Thanks... __________________ "...after a while you get bored offering advice to a bull that like to keep butting the fence with its head rather than walking through the open gate..." - Rebreather World PM
(Offline)

7th February 2007, 19:32	#3 (permalink)
dan140465 Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Classic Kiss Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Classic Kiss Other CCR Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Portsmouth, UK Posts: 115	Re: O2 & Dil mods for Kiss Classic Ted..............excellent, the light has been turned on blah, blah, blah........... Thanks for taking the time to photo and post, what a cracking set of mods, exactly what I was looking for. Where did you get all your adaptors/sinter filter from ? Every time I email M&J I get zero response This would be a cracking adition to a possible Kiss Modifications Section / thread ? Cheers again Danny __________________ Same S**t different Day !
(Offline)

7th February 2007, 19:46	#4 (permalink)
O.C.Diver Helium Addict Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Classic Kiss Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Salisbury MD USA Summers; Wandering Florida Winters Posts: 260	Re: O2 & Dil mods for Kiss Classic Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie) Nice mod. Where can I buy the 2 adapters to screw into the plastic MAV to allow standard SCUBA hoses ? Thanks... The adapters are 7/16" straight thread o-ring seal male to 3/8" straight thread o-ring seal female. Prior to about 1980 scuba regulators had both HP and LP ports of 3/8' straight thread o-ring seal. The HP port and SPG hose were changed to 7/16" to keep people from screwing LP hoses in HP ports with a resulting bang when the valve was opened and the LP hose went bang. The adapters were generated so that old SPG hoses (3/8") could be screwed into new regs (7/16"). Trident is just one company that offers them: http://www.tridentdive.com/Export15.htm Trident's number for this item is AA50 Note: Most of these adapters now have a very small hole to act as a restricted orifice in case the HP hose fails in an HP application. You need to drill the hole out to at least 1/8". Ted __________________ Consider this my opinion.......sometimes I'm even right, but remember.........YMMV. Ted Green Charter Boat "OC Diver" http://www.ocdiver.com
(Offline)

7th February 2007, 20:09	#5 (permalink)
O.C.Diver Helium Addict Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Classic Kiss Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Salisbury MD USA Summers; Wandering Florida Winters Posts: 260	Re: O2 & Dil mods for Kiss Classic Quote: (Originally Posted by dan140465) Where did you get all your adaptors/sinter filter from ? Every time I email M&J I get zero response The Sinter filter was used in a Scubapro tank valve that was produced back in the 1980s. I had a few spares in my parts drawer, not sure if they are still available. The adapters were linked in another post. Try contacting: OxyCheq ... oxygen analyzers and oxygen sensors as they are a distributor for M&J. The inflator nipples are available from many sources and can be purchased from Trident below: http://www.tridentdive.com/Export17.htm Their part number is AA08-A Ted __________________ Consider this my opinion.......sometimes I'm even right, but remember.........YMMV. Ted Green Charter Boat "OC Diver" http://www.ocdiver.com
(Offline)

7th February 2007, 20:23	#6 (permalink)
*EBT* Apprentice Luddite Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: UK, Brighton Posts: 2,147	Re: O2 & Dil mods for Kiss Classic Interesting mods, werent you worried about putting your primary gas feeds on via quick disconnects that arent reachable on your dive? __________________ Eagles May Soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines! RBW Terms of service
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7th February 2007, 20:46	#7 (permalink)
O.C.Diver Helium Addict Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Classic Kiss Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Salisbury MD USA Summers; Wandering Florida Winters Posts: 260	Re: O2 & Dil mods for Kiss Classic Quote: (Originally Posted by EBT) Interesting mods, werent you worried about putting your primary gas feeds on via quick disconnects that arent reachable on your dive? No. First, I always dive with sufficient OC bailout gas. Second they are so recessed between the cylinder and the canister that accidental disconnecting is all but impossible. On my homebuilt I have the same setup although more exposed. With well over 1,000 dives on my homebuilt, I have never had one disconnect on me. Ted __________________ Consider this my opinion.......sometimes I'm even right, but remember.........YMMV. Ted Green Charter Boat "OC Diver" http://www.ocdiver.com
(Offline)

7th February 2007, 21:28	#8 (permalink)
Philippe GERIN ccr apprentice Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Sport Kiss Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: May 2005 Location: Strasbourg, France Posts: 655	Re: O2 & Dil mods for Kiss Classic Quote: (Originally Posted by O.C.Diver) This pic shows the supply hose (standard inflator hose) attached to the nipple and swivel. Note: I have removed the schraeder valve from this supply hose to eliminate any back pressure. Same for Dil hose. Ted Nice mods Ted, especially the manual dil valve in which you could also plug O2 & run the rig completely "manually" without the help of the MAV/orifice. Same as your comment about hot diluents. Same fashion as Gordon's (RIP) snog valve. I used to run my O2 with inflator hoses as well but with the QD on the first stage side (nipple is attached to the first stage), connection to the filter/MAV inlet via a Swagelok push-on, same on the MAV outlet and QD with the same street elbow/nipple assembly... I never removed the shraeder valve from the QD and never noticed any back-pressure. Did you notice it or is this in anticipation of a potential problem? Same here Zak, I've never had any problems with the QDs in about 300 hours but I went back to standard non-QD connections just for the piece of mind before a trip with deeper dives (on my buddies insistence) and left the rig like that since. Best Philippe
(Offline)

7th February 2007, 21:57	#9 (permalink)
O.C.Diver Helium Addict Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Classic Kiss Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Salisbury MD USA Summers; Wandering Florida Winters Posts: 260	Re: O2 & Dil mods for Kiss Classic Quote: (Originally Posted by Philippe GERIN) Nice mods Ted, especially the manual dil valve in which you could also plug O2 & run the rig completely "manually" without the help of the MAV/orifice. Same as your comment about hot diluents. Same fashion as Gordon's (RIP) snog valve. I thought about running off board O2 in through my manual dil valve and decided not to for 2 reasons. First, that fitting on the canister head is right next to the cells and then the return to diver hose. At 250' I would rather not spike the cells with pure O2 and then breath in a shot of that pure O2. Secondly, if I over spike the loop with O2 through that manual Dil valve, I won't have the Dil hooked up to flush the loop back down (I prefer not to use the ADV for Dil flushes). Quote: (Originally Posted by Philippe GERIN) I never removed the shraeder valve from the QD and never noticed any back-pressure. Did you notice it or is this in anticipation of a potential problem? The manual Dil inflator barrel where it would connect to a 1" diameter wing hose wasn't designed for 140+ psi. I wasn't sure if the possible back pressure could be a problem; so I eliminated it. Since the schraeder valve served no purpose, I eliminated it on the Kiss valve also. Quote: (Originally Posted by Philippe GERIN) Same here Zak, I've never had any problems with the QDs in about 300 hours but I went back to standard non-QD connections just for the piece of mind before a trip with deeper dives (on my buddies insistence) and left the rig like that since. If I was really worried about the QDs, a tie wrap on each would keep the barrel from moving. Ted __________________ Consider this my opinion.......sometimes I'm even right, but remember.........YMMV. Ted Green Charter Boat "OC Diver" http://www.ocdiver.com
(Offline)

7th February 2007, 22:30	#10 (permalink)
eanxdiver Rather be Diving Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss rEvo Other Rebreather/s: rEvo Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: USA, SC Posts: 122	Re: O2 & Dil mods for Kiss Classic Nice work. Thanks for taking the time to detail the mods and supply great pictures too. Have some green!
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