KISS... CCR or Posh SCR

***EBT*** · 2nd April 2006, 13:52

There was a debate on another thread that I found briefly interesting. Some folks are arguing that a KISS is jsut a posh SCR. Im not sure why I felt the need to reply, perhaps its because its either that or get on with some work for tommorrow, but heres my take on it.

Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski)

As stephen stated, if you go off the loop and leave the valve on, or have a flow rate higher than youtr metabolic need it will vent continuously.. also the drager dolphin can also be used with 100% oxygen if your an instructor, with this orifice there is very little venting.. Would you call this a CCR?? same situation...

To me, the definition of a CCR is a unit that;

absorbs CO2 (today we use chemical absoption, maybe in the future it'll change)
injects O2 (somehow; CMF, eCCR inject, Hyperoxide scrubbers)
Recirculates the gas
Uses a loop monitoring system to maintain a breathable loop
Doesnt vent gas under normal operation at constant depth

An SCR is then;

Absorbs Co2
Injects a single mix
Deliberately vents gas in normal operation at constant depth
recirculates the gas

So is an O2 rebreather a CCR or an SCR? I'd suggest its a CCR, but one that doesnt need to utilise loop monitoring by virtue of an SOP to ensure the loop remains pure O2.

Anyway, frankly... who gives a toss, Im obviously bored and talking shite like 95% of internet conversations

decoweenie · 2nd April 2006, 15:34

Quote: (Originally Posted by EBT)

...Who gives a toss...

Exactly!

However, if you are really bored, you could start differentiate them under these terms:

passive-addition CCR
active-addition CCR

following the old SCR principle of the PVR-BASC unit.

deepnark · 2nd April 2006, 16:12

[quote=decoweenie]Exactly!

However, if you are really bored, you could start differentiate them under these terms:

passive-addition CCR
active-addition CCR

i would suggest
* sccr - boys
* ccr - men

Ray

**Freef** · 2nd April 2006, 16:13

Surely the "problem" with the KISS type Rebreather injecting too much O2 would be down to the user not selecting the correct flow rate, and would also cause a high pO2 problem.

I would say that is a fault on the unit that requires dive termination and correction, much the same as an eCCR having a solonoid that doesn't fully close the flow of O2 into the loop.

Is an O2 SCR really a CCR then? If the flow rate was set forrectly then all the available O2 would be metabolised and all the CO2 would be absorbed.

***EBT*** · 2nd April 2006, 16:19

Its simple to me, the bit that defines an SCR and not a CCR is a device that intentionally vents gas every so often under normal operation at constant depth.

By this argument an O2 rebreather is just a depth limited CCR.

So, how many boring twats does it take to discuss this to death on a sunday then?

**Freef** · 2nd April 2006, 16:30

Quote: (Originally Posted by EBT)

So, how many boring twats does it take to discuss this to death on a sunday then?

***jradomski*** · 2nd April 2006, 16:34

Quote: (Originally Posted by EBT)

There was a debate on another thread that I found briefly interesting. Some folks are arguing that a KISS is jsut a posh SCR. Im not sure why I felt the need to reply, perhaps its because its either that or get on with some work for tommorrow, but heres my take on it.

To me, the definition of a CCR is a unit that;

absorbs CO2 (today we use chemical absoption, maybe in the future it'll change)
injects O2 (somehow; CMF, eCCR inject, Hyperoxide scrubbers)
Recirculates the gas
Uses a loop monitoring system to maintain a breathable loop
Doesnt vent gas under normal operation at constant depth

An SCR is then;

Absorbs Co2
Injects a single mix
Deliberately vents gas in normal operation at constant depth
recirculates the gas

So is an O2 rebreather a CCR or an SCR? I'd suggest its a CCR, but one that doesnt need to utilise loop monitoring by virtue of an SOP to ensure the loop remains pure O2.

Anyway, frankly... who gives a toss, Im obviously bored and talking shite like 95% of internet conversations

I don't really think there was an argument, it was mereley a statement of history and that others who had units that performed in a similar manner considered them SCRs.. (these units predated the KISS), and it wasnt until the KISS came out that they started getting called CCRs..

In my mind its some type of a hybrid between the 2.. I can't clearly consider it an SCR because when adjusted corretly it doesnt vent at a constant depth, but its clearly not like "true" CCRs in that oxygen does not flow continuously, and if you stop using the loop no more oxygen is added..

The older name of a constant PO2 SCR did fit the way it worked...

***jradomski*** · 2nd April 2006, 16:50

Quote: (Originally Posted by Freef)

Surely the "problem" with the KISS type Rebreather injecting too much O2 would be down to the user not selecting the correct flow rate, and would also cause a high pO2 problem.
.

not necessarily... it depends on your depth and what you consider an acceptable po2..

If you were at 3m the highest it could ever reach would be 1.3 (but in reality it wount get this high)

at 6m its 1.6, but most likely alot less unless the loop was flushed...

also if you set it up to be able to deliever oxygen at a deeper depth, on many divers (based onmetabolic need) it WILL deliever too much flow shallow,so it will cause a rising po2 and cause you to vent.. So it is acting like an SCR atshallower depths while not venting when deeper..

decoweenie · 2nd April 2006, 16:59

Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski)

...it was mereley a statement of history and that others who had units that performed in a similar manner considered them SCRs.. (these units predated the KISS), and it wasnt until the KISS came out that they started getting called CCRs...

Who were these "others" ?

I closed my Dolphin before Gordon introduced the KISS using parts made in Germany, but there were others using the same parts even before me.

And none of us called the converted units "SCR"...

decoweenie · 2nd April 2006, 17:02

Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski)

..."true" CCRs in that oxygen does not flow continuously...

And there are "true" SCRs that don't have a constant inlet gas flow as well...

2nd April 2006, 13:52	#1 (permalink)
*EBT* Apprentice Luddite Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: UK, Brighton Posts: 2,115	KISS... CCR or Posh SCR There was a debate on another thread that I found briefly interesting. Some folks are arguing that a KISS is jsut a posh SCR. Im not sure why I felt the need to reply, perhaps its because its either that or get on with some work for tommorrow, but heres my take on it. Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski) As stephen stated, if you go off the loop and leave the valve on, or have a flow rate higher than youtr metabolic need it will vent continuously.. also the drager dolphin can also be used with 100% oxygen if your an instructor, with this orifice there is very little venting.. Would you call this a CCR?? same situation... To me, the definition of a CCR is a unit that; absorbs CO2 (today we use chemical absoption, maybe in the future it'll change) injects O2 (somehow; CMF, eCCR inject, Hyperoxide scrubbers) Recirculates the gas Uses a loop monitoring system to maintain a breathable loop Doesnt vent gas under normal operation at constant depth An SCR is then; Absorbs Co2 Injects a single mix Deliberately vents gas in normal operation at constant depth recirculates the gas So is an O2 rebreather a CCR or an SCR? I'd suggest its a CCR, but one that doesnt need to utilise loop monitoring by virtue of an SOP to ensure the loop remains pure O2. Anyway, frankly... who gives a toss, Im obviously bored and talking shite like 95% of internet conversations __________________ Eagles May Soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines! RBW Terms of service
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2nd April 2006, 15:34	#2 (permalink)
decoweenie Crash Test Dummy Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cairo Posts: 5,487	Re: KISS... CCR or Posh SCR Quote: (Originally Posted by EBT) ...Who gives a toss... Exactly! However, if you are really bored, you could start differentiate them under these terms: passive-addition CCR active-addition CCR following the old SCR principle of the PVR-BASC unit.
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2nd April 2006, 16:12	#3 (permalink)
deepnark RBW Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Classic Kiss Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: norfolk uk Posts: 182	Re: KISS... CCR or Posh SCR [quote=decoweenie]Exactly! However, if you are really bored, you could start differentiate them under these terms: passive-addition CCR active-addition CCR i would suggest * sccr - boys * ccr - men Ray
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2nd April 2006, 16:13	#4 (permalink)
Freef Custom Title Disallowed! Current Rebreather/s: Dolphin Other Rebreather/s: Dolphin Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Land of the Freef, UK. Posts: 1,427	Re: KISS... CCR or Posh SCR Surely the "problem" with the KISS type Rebreather injecting too much O2 would be down to the user not selecting the correct flow rate, and would also cause a high pO2 problem. I would say that is a fault on the unit that requires dive termination and correction, much the same as an eCCR having a solonoid that doesn't fully close the flow of O2 into the loop. Is an O2 SCR really a CCR then? If the flow rate was set forrectly then all the available O2 would be metabolised and all the CO2 would be absorbed. __________________ David. Diving the mahogany rebreather.
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2nd April 2006, 16:19	#5 (permalink)
*EBT* Apprentice Luddite Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: UK, Brighton Posts: 2,115	Re: KISS... CCR or Posh SCR Its simple to me, the bit that defines an SCR and not a CCR is a device that intentionally vents gas every so often under normal operation at constant depth. By this argument an O2 rebreather is just a depth limited CCR. So, how many boring twats does it take to discuss this to death on a sunday then? __________________ Eagles May Soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines! RBW Terms of service
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2nd April 2006, 16:30	#6 (permalink)
Freef Custom Title Disallowed! Current Rebreather/s: Dolphin Other Rebreather/s: Dolphin Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Land of the Freef, UK. Posts: 1,427	Re: KISS... CCR or Posh SCR Quote: (Originally Posted by EBT) So, how many boring twats does it take to discuss this to death on a sunday then? __________________ David. Diving the mahogany rebreather.
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2nd April 2006, 16:34	#7 (permalink)
*jradomski* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx Posts: 3,115	Re: KISS... CCR or Posh SCR Quote: (Originally Posted by EBT) There was a debate on another thread that I found briefly interesting. Some folks are arguing that a KISS is jsut a posh SCR. Im not sure why I felt the need to reply, perhaps its because its either that or get on with some work for tommorrow, but heres my take on it. To me, the definition of a CCR is a unit that; absorbs CO2 (today we use chemical absoption, maybe in the future it'll change) injects O2 (somehow; CMF, eCCR inject, Hyperoxide scrubbers) Recirculates the gas Uses a loop monitoring system to maintain a breathable loop Doesnt vent gas under normal operation at constant depth An SCR is then; Absorbs Co2 Injects a single mix Deliberately vents gas in normal operation at constant depth recirculates the gas So is an O2 rebreather a CCR or an SCR? I'd suggest its a CCR, but one that doesnt need to utilise loop monitoring by virtue of an SOP to ensure the loop remains pure O2. Anyway, frankly... who gives a toss, Im obviously bored and talking shite like 95% of internet conversations I don't really think there was an argument, it was mereley a statement of history and that others who had units that performed in a similar manner considered them SCRs.. (these units predated the KISS), and it wasnt until the KISS came out that they started getting called CCRs.. In my mind its some type of a hybrid between the 2.. I can't clearly consider it an SCR because when adjusted corretly it doesnt vent at a constant depth, but its clearly not like "true" CCRs in that oxygen does not flow continuously, and if you stop using the loop no more oxygen is added.. The older name of a constant PO2 SCR did fit the way it worked... __________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated.
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2nd April 2006, 16:50	#8 (permalink)
*jradomski* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx Posts: 3,115	Re: KISS... CCR or Posh SCR Quote: (Originally Posted by Freef) Surely the "problem" with the KISS type Rebreather injecting too much O2 would be down to the user not selecting the correct flow rate, and would also cause a high pO2 problem. . not necessarily... it depends on your depth and what you consider an acceptable po2.. If you were at 3m the highest it could ever reach would be 1.3 (but in reality it wount get this high) at 6m its 1.6, but most likely alot less unless the loop was flushed... also if you set it up to be able to deliever oxygen at a deeper depth, on many divers (based onmetabolic need) it WILL deliever too much flow shallow,so it will cause a rising po2 and cause you to vent.. So it is acting like an SCR atshallower depths while not venting when deeper.. __________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated.
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2nd April 2006, 16:59	#9 (permalink)
decoweenie Crash Test Dummy Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cairo Posts: 5,487	Re: KISS... CCR or Posh SCR Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski) ...it was mereley a statement of history and that others who had units that performed in a similar manner considered them SCRs.. (these units predated the KISS), and it wasnt until the KISS came out that they started getting called CCRs... Who were these "others" ? I closed my Dolphin before Gordon introduced the KISS using parts made in Germany, but there were others using the same parts even before me. And none of us called the converted units "SCR"...
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2nd April 2006, 17:02	#10 (permalink)
decoweenie Crash Test Dummy Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cairo Posts: 5,487	Re: KISS... CCR or Posh SCR Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski) ..."true" CCRs in that oxygen does not flow continuously... And there are "true" SCRs that don't have a constant inlet gas flow as well...
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