KISS Announces Results of Scrubber Duration Testing

pabusk · 13th October 2007, 13:22

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase)

Brilient work AP.

I meen we all purchased CCR's to do lots of diving at 20m didnt we

Mark

Why not turn it around and have the KISS tested at 20 meters ???? Why pissing about again at other rebreathers which had their data far before this KISS one ???

In my opinion you are nagging about nothing ... if they want to look better they shold have tested at 20 meters also. Please stop venting this hot air.

You clearly like your breather (and you should) bt I don't see any relevance in this "my breather is better than the rest". It's great this data is available now so you can dive your breather in a safer way. And it's good news for you if it's more efficient thaan other scrubbers, that does not mean that the rest of the manufaturers are crap.

Relax and go diving instead of this venting of hot air

Cheers,
Paul

iain-hsm · 13th October 2007, 16:29

Quote: (Originally Posted by jqn)

I have been looking at the theoretical scrubber equations and time is highly non-linear in the inputs. So, I think what we conclude is; if you are working really hard, you can over breathe the scrubber and the reaction zone will extend beyond the scrubber -- so, elevated CO2 levels.

It doesn't help us understand diving the unit.

Jerry

Jerry
It doesn't help any of us (green on its way)

What you have here IMHO is a Kiss "statment of duration" thats all.

Chemical duration is only half of the story you could hook up Sponge Bob’s
underpants with 797 and get them absorbing C02. I would even hazard a guess the more lime……………..the more time.

I would expect Jetsam to release the ANSTI WOB graph for the duration only then will the statement below will be fully concluded. Iain Middlebrook

Why is Jetsam releasing its data? Because we believe all divers should
have as much information as possible to ensure their safety.

n2diving · 13th October 2007, 18:19

There was a joke floating around in the IT community a few years ago... it would be boring here, but the punch line was a product marketing manager says "The great thing about standards is there are so many of them."

First there was fussing that no test results were published. Right now there is fussing that it's difficult to compare the testing results. I hope divers don't think that having uniform testing standards will be meaningful. If test results begin driving the purchasing decision, the manfacturers will start delivering units engineered to 'test well' in the lab, rather than 'perform well' in the real world. The manufacturer's simply start 'gaming the system' of independent testing.

And shame on whomever wrote the Jetsam pdf's for copying without permission or attribution, in their SK results document, an RMV/CO2/Work chart I researched, wrote and published on my website to document some test results for another brand of rebreather. (I recently edited to remove the reference to a Navy S.E.A.L. because of some specific issues.) By copying out of context, the Jetsam author has left the reader without an understanding of the underlying data that was used to produce the chart, and has deleted some important source references and mathematical assumptions.

-- Mark

Mark Chase · 14th October 2007, 17:52

Quote: (Originally Posted by pabusk)

Why not turn it around and have the KISS tested at 20 meters ???? Why pissing about again at other rebreathers which had their data far before this KISS one ???

In my opinion you are nagging about nothing ... if they want to look better they shold have tested at 20 meters also. Please stop venting this hot air.

You clearly like your breather (and you should) bt I don't see any relevance in this "my breather is better than the rest". It's great this data is available now so you can dive your breather in a safer way. And it's good news for you if it's more efficient thaan other scrubbers, that does not mean that the rest of the manufaturers are crap.

Relax and go diving instead of this venting of hot air

Cheers,
Paul

Paul you obviously haven't understood my point.

I couldn't give a toss about the KISS, Inspo, Meg ar any other unit. I am mearly stating that test data for 20m is as much use to the average CCR diver as a snorkel.

Test data over a set range of depths would be ideal, however i would have thought 40-50m would be a much better base line than 15 or 20m

And just for clarification M8 point me to the post where I say the KISS is best.

If your struggling then you may do better searching for one where I say the rEvo is the best MCCR and the Meg Apex 2 appears to be the most reliable ECCR with the Vision being the obvious choice for full on all singing and dancing ECCR

The KISS is as its name suggests very simple and has been 100% reliable for me with the Shear water handset.

BUT

Standard hand sets are dodgy

Work of breathing is higher than the Classic / Vision

The flood recovery is rubbish

The units needs a lot of tools to let you do simple tasks like change cells

The access to the counter lungs fittings is very poor

The ADV is fragile

The OPV wont shut down hard enough for decent positive pressure tests or to let you do decent liquid soap leek searches

The standard BOV was rubbish (dont know about the new one)

There is no HUD

Apart form these points your dead right I tell every one how fantastic my unit is.

I love my CCRs like I love a hammer or a screw driver. If it works well and doesn't break its good. I have no allegiances.

ATB

Mark Chase

Ben Field · 14th October 2007, 18:24

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase)

The OPV wont shut down hard enough for decent positive pressure tests or to let you do decent liquid soap leek searches

Mark- yours is busted then, mine will hold pos or neg for hours... although thats a bad idea as you know, it buggers the diaphram.

With regards Jetsam releasing these figures, we know now that they were part of Kevins multi-rebreather tests, like for like on all models, as shown at the dive show, yes predicatably the Sentinal came out top but then it is the newest model so shouldn't it also be the most efficient deisgn? (standing on the shoulders of everyone else)

Hopefully someone got a picture of it or it'll be posted here in its original file format.

Mark Chase · 14th October 2007, 18:40

Quote: (Originally Posted by Ben Field)

Mark- yours is busted then, mine will hold pos or neg for hours... although thats a bad idea as you know, it buggers the diaphram.

With regards Jetsam releasing these figures, we know now that they were part of Kevins multi-rebreather tests, like for like on all models, as shown at the dive show, yes predicatably the Sentinal came out top but then it is the newest model so shouldn't it also be the most efficient deisgn? (standing on the shoulders of everyone else)

Hopefully someone got a picture of it or it'll be posted here in its original file format.

Its not busted I have had it checked. All the other KISS units i have looked at are similar, you cant get a good high pressure positive test (like you can on an inspo) to test for leeks using liquid soap. Only way to do it is keep the 02 on constant flow and even then its not ideal.

ATB

Mark

jtoorish · 14th October 2007, 21:58

Quote: (Originally Posted by Ben Field)

Mark- yours is busted then, mine will hold pos or neg for hours... although thats a bad idea as you know, it buggers the diaphram.

With regards Jetsam releasing these figures, we know now that they were part of Kevins multi-rebreather tests, like for like on all models, as shown at the dive show, yes predicatably the Sentinal came out top but then it is the newest model so shouldn't it also be the most efficient deisgn? (standing on the shoulders of everyone else)

Hopefully someone got a picture of it or it'll be posted here in its original file format.

Ben,

Sorry, that's not true. Jetsam did their testing independently. It was not part of Kevin's side by side test.

Jeff

lizardland · 14th October 2007, 23:16

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase)

Its not busted I have had it checked. All the other KISS units i have looked at are similar, you cant get a good high pressure positive test (like you can on an inspo) to test for leeks using liquid soap. Only way to do it is keep the 02 on constant flow and even then its not ideal.

ATB

Mark

Yep, mine is the same.

Ben Field · 15th October 2007, 08:01

Quote: (Originally Posted by jtoorish)

Ben,

Sorry, that's not true. Jetsam did their testing independently. It was not part of Kevin's side by side test.

Jeff

We must have spoken to different people then.... or cross-purposes.

Ben Field · 15th October 2007, 08:03

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase)

Its not busted I have had it checked. All the other KISS units i have looked at are similar, you cant get a good high pressure positive test (like you can on an inspo) to test for leeks using liquid soap. Only way to do it is keep the 02 on constant flow and even then its not ideal.

ATB

Mark

Hmm, must just be mine then. I only did it a couple of times before someone said- don't!

Having seen the torture some Inspiration divers inflict on their units in the name of +ve/-ve checks I'm not sure I'd want to either!

13th October 2007, 13:22	#31 (permalink)
pabusk Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Inspiration Classic Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Holland Posts: 127	Re: KISS Announces Results of Scrubber Duration Testing Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase) Brilient work AP. I meen we all purchased CCR's to do lots of diving at 20m didnt we Mark Why not turn it around and have the KISS tested at 20 meters ???? Why pissing about again at other rebreathers which had their data far before this KISS one ??? In my opinion you are nagging about nothing ... if they want to look better they shold have tested at 20 meters also. Please stop venting this hot air. You clearly like your breather (and you should) bt I don't see any relevance in this "my breather is better than the rest". It's great this data is available now so you can dive your breather in a safer way. And it's good news for you if it's more efficient thaan other scrubbers, that does not mean that the rest of the manufaturers are crap. Relax and go diving instead of this venting of hot air Cheers, Paul
(Offline)

13th October 2007, 16:29	#32 (permalink)
iain-hsm Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Other CCR Other SCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other SCR Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Loughborough England uk Posts: 346	Re: KISS Announces Results of Scrubber Duration Testing Quote: (Originally Posted by jqn) I have been looking at the theoretical scrubber equations and time is highly non-linear in the inputs. So, I think what we conclude is; if you are working really hard, you can over breathe the scrubber and the reaction zone will extend beyond the scrubber -- so, elevated CO2 levels. It doesn't help us understand diving the unit. Jerry Jerry It doesn't help any of us (green on its way) What you have here IMHO is a Kiss "statment of duration" thats all. Chemical duration is only half of the story you could hook up Sponge Bob’s underpants with 797 and get them absorbing C02. I would even hazard a guess the more lime……………..the more time. I would expect Jetsam to release the ANSTI WOB graph for the duration only then will the statement below will be fully concluded. Iain Middlebrook *Why is Jetsam releasing its data? Because we believe all divers should* *have as much information as possible to ensure their safety.*
(Offline)

13th October 2007, 18:19	#33 (permalink)
n2diving Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Optima Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Florida, USA Posts: 270	Re: KISS Announces Results of Scrubber Duration Testing There was a joke floating around in the IT community a few years ago... it would be boring here, but the punch line was a product marketing manager says "The great thing about standards is there are so many of them." First there was fussing that no test results were published. Right now there is fussing that it's difficult to compare the testing results. I hope divers don't think that having uniform testing standards will be meaningful. If test results begin driving the purchasing decision, the manfacturers will start delivering units engineered to 'test well' in the lab, rather than 'perform well' in the real world. The manufacturer's simply start 'gaming the system' of independent testing. And shame on whomever wrote the Jetsam pdf's for copying without permission or attribution, in their SK results document, an RMV/CO2/Work chart I researched, wrote and published on my website to document some test results for another brand of rebreather. (I recently edited to remove the reference to a Navy S.E.A.L. because of some specific issues.) By copying out of context, the Jetsam author has left the reader without an understanding of the underlying data that was used to produce the chart, and has deleted some important source references and mathematical assumptions. -- Mark Last edited by n2diving : 13th October 2007 at 19:24.
(Offline)

14th October 2007, 17:52	#34 (permalink)
Mark Chase I go down for ages Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kent Posts: 2,470	Re: KISS Announces Results of Scrubber Duration Testing Quote: (Originally Posted by pabusk) Why not turn it around and have the KISS tested at 20 meters ???? Why pissing about again at other rebreathers which had their data far before this KISS one ??? In my opinion you are nagging about nothing ... if they want to look better they shold have tested at 20 meters also. Please stop venting this hot air. You clearly like your breather (and you should) bt I don't see any relevance in this "my breather is better than the rest". It's great this data is available now so you can dive your breather in a safer way. And it's good news for you if it's more efficient thaan other scrubbers, that does not mean that the rest of the manufaturers are crap. Relax and go diving instead of this venting of hot air Cheers, Paul Paul you obviously haven't understood my point. I couldn't give a toss about the KISS, Inspo, Meg ar any other unit. I am mearly stating that test data for 20m is as much use to the average CCR diver as a snorkel. Test data over a set range of depths would be ideal, however i would have thought 40-50m would be a much better base line than 15 or 20m And just for clarification M8 point me to the post where I say the KISS is best. If your struggling then you may do better searching for one where I say the rEvo is the best MCCR and the Meg Apex 2 appears to be the most reliable ECCR with the Vision being the obvious choice for full on all singing and dancing ECCR The KISS is as its name suggests very simple and has been 100% reliable for me with the Shear water handset. BUT Standard hand sets are dodgy Work of breathing is higher than the Classic / Vision The flood recovery is rubbish The units needs a lot of tools to let you do simple tasks like change cells The access to the counter lungs fittings is very poor The ADV is fragile The OPV wont shut down hard enough for decent positive pressure tests or to let you do decent liquid soap leek searches The standard BOV was rubbish (dont know about the new one) There is no HUD Apart form these points your dead right I tell every one how fantastic my unit is. I love my CCRs like I love a hammer or a screw driver. If it works well and doesn't break its good. I have no allegiances. ATB Mark Chase __________________ Is it supposed to make that noise ? I took my unit to the dive shop and demanded they bolt on every thing that would fit. Join my elite diving teem and get a Tshirt "Doing It Chasey"Hammerhead Eccr Advanced Diving System
(Offline)

14th October 2007, 18:24	#35 (permalink)
Ben Field CK+Shearwater Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: London, England Posts: 1,485	Re: KISS Announces Results of Scrubber Duration Testing Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase) The OPV wont shut down hard enough for decent positive pressure tests or to let you do decent liquid soap leek searches Mark- yours is busted then, mine will hold pos or neg for hours... although thats a bad idea as you know, it buggers the diaphram. With regards Jetsam releasing these figures, we know now that they were part of Kevins multi-rebreather tests, like for like on all models, as shown at the dive show, yes predicatably the Sentinal came out top but then it is the newest model so shouldn't it also be the most efficient deisgn? (standing on the shoulders of everyone else) Hopefully someone got a picture of it or it'll be posted here in its original file format. __________________ www.hugsac.org.uk Beware Fridge Suck
(Online)

14th October 2007, 18:40	#36 (permalink)
Mark Chase I go down for ages Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kent Posts: 2,470	Re: KISS Announces Results of Scrubber Duration Testing Quote: (Originally Posted by Ben Field) Mark- yours is busted then, mine will hold pos or neg for hours... although thats a bad idea as you know, it buggers the diaphram. With regards Jetsam releasing these figures, we know now that they were part of Kevins multi-rebreather tests, like for like on all models, as shown at the dive show, yes predicatably the Sentinal came out top but then it is the newest model so shouldn't it also be the most efficient deisgn? (standing on the shoulders of everyone else) Hopefully someone got a picture of it or it'll be posted here in its original file format. Its not busted I have had it checked. All the other KISS units i have looked at are similar, you cant get a good high pressure positive test (like you can on an inspo) to test for leeks using liquid soap. Only way to do it is keep the 02 on constant flow and even then its not ideal. ATB Mark __________________ Is it supposed to make that noise ? I took my unit to the dive shop and demanded they bolt on every thing that would fit. Join my elite diving teem and get a Tshirt "Doing It Chasey"Hammerhead Eccr Advanced Diving System
(Offline)

14th October 2007, 21:58	#37 (permalink)
jtoorish New Member Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Maine Posts: 23	Re: KISS Announces Results of Scrubber Duration Testing Quote: (Originally Posted by Ben Field) Mark- yours is busted then, mine will hold pos or neg for hours... although thats a bad idea as you know, it buggers the diaphram. With regards Jetsam releasing these figures, we know now that they were part of Kevins multi-rebreather tests, like for like on all models, as shown at the dive show, yes predicatably the Sentinal came out top but then it is the newest model so shouldn't it also be the most efficient deisgn? (standing on the shoulders of everyone else) Hopefully someone got a picture of it or it'll be posted here in its original file format. Ben, Sorry, that's not true. Jetsam did their testing independently. It was not part of Kevin's side by side test. Jeff __________________ www.advanceddivermagazine.com
(Offline)

14th October 2007, 23:16	#38 (permalink)
lizardland Yak Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Home Build Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: North... Posts: 1,189	Re: KISS Announces Results of Scrubber Duration Testing Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase) Its not busted I have had it checked. All the other KISS units i have looked at are similar, you cant get a good high pressure positive test (like you can on an inspo) to test for leeks using liquid soap. Only way to do it is keep the 02 on constant flow and even then its not ideal. ATB Mark Yep, mine is the same. __________________ Can you imagine drifting along in the sea with your mouth open and a load of f***ing plankton going in? You'd like it, would you? www.westons-cider.co.uk Azerbaijani Association of Technical Divers Publicity Officer and Goat Wrangler
(Offline)

15th October 2007, 08:01	#39 (permalink)
Ben Field CK+Shearwater Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: London, England Posts: 1,485	Re: KISS Announces Results of Scrubber Duration Testing Quote: (Originally Posted by jtoorish) Ben, Sorry, that's not true. Jetsam did their testing independently. It was not part of Kevin's side by side test. Jeff We must have spoken to different people then.... or cross-purposes. __________________ www.hugsac.org.uk Beware Fridge Suck
(Online)

15th October 2007, 08:03	#40 (permalink)
Ben Field CK+Shearwater Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: London, England Posts: 1,485	Re: KISS Announces Results of Scrubber Duration Testing Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase) Its not busted I have had it checked. All the other KISS units i have looked at are similar, you cant get a good high pressure positive test (like you can on an inspo) to test for leeks using liquid soap. Only way to do it is keep the 02 on constant flow and even then its not ideal. ATB Mark Hmm, must just be mine then. I only did it a couple of times before someone said- don't! Having seen the torture some Inspiration divers inflict on their units in the name of +ve/-ve checks I'm not sure I'd want to either! __________________ www.hugsac.org.uk Beware Fridge Suck
(Online)

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