KISS Announces Results of Scrubber Duration Testing

***Decodiver*** · 11th October 2007, 19:04

Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski)

the one thing to note on the classic is that the duration is stated at 40m.. most of the other rigs tested state the duration based on ~20m testing..

Not the Ouroboros.......................................

peter · 11th October 2007, 20:08

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase)

At least the base lines are comparable with other known units. Id like to see the test data for a Meg and rEvo beside this and the Inspo & Boris data.

The data for Inspo, Evo and Boris..

"The Inspiration's time on nominal 2.5kg sofnolime at 20m is 180mins in 4C, at 100m it is 82 mins to 5 mbar. The Oroboros on nominal 2.75kg of sofnolime is 210 mins at 15m and 90 mins at 100m again to 5 mbar. The Evolution (2.0 kg) is 120 mins and 55 mins."

Cut from this post,
http://www.rebreatherworld.com/gener....html#post7381

I would also like to see the data for Meg and rEvo.

Mark Chase · 11th October 2007, 20:48

Quote: (Originally Posted by peter)

The data for Inspo, Evo and Boris..

"The Inspiration's time on nominal 2.5kg sofnolime at 20m is 180mins in 4C, at 100m it is 82 mins to 5 mbar. The Oroboros on nominal 2.75kg of sofnolime is 210 mins at 15m and 90 mins at 100m again to 5 mbar. The Evolution (2.0 kg) is 120 mins and 55 mins."

Cut from this post,
http://www.rebreatherworld.com/gener....html#post7381

I would also like to see the data for Meg and rEvo.

So the only direct comparison is the 100m one. Which will surprise a lot of people in that the Boris rates only an extra 8mins?? Perhaps we should look at it as an extra 9%.

However the test figures for the Inspo are at 20m the boris is at 15 and the KISS is at 40M

Frankly if the KISS does 2 hours 37 @ 40 and the classic only manages 3hours at 20 the KISS is looking good. Or is it?

For a standard set of CE tests the available data isn't very standard

Why not all publish 20m 50m and 100m so we can hacve a proper side by side.

ATB

Mark

***jradomski*** · 11th October 2007, 21:16

Quote: (Originally Posted by Decodiver)

Not the Ouroboros.......................................

The max published duration was shallower.. I was being "generous" since I dont think 5m is going to make that significant a difference..

***jradomski*** · 11th October 2007, 21:20

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase)

So the only direct comparison is the 100m one. Which will surprise a lot of people in that the Boris rates only an extra 8mins?? Perhaps we should look at it as an extra 9%.

However the test figures for the Inspo are at 20m the boris is at 15 and the KISS is at 40M

Frankly if the KISS does 2 hours 37 @ 40 and the classic only manages 3hours at 20 the KISS is looking good. Or is it?

For a standard set of CE tests the available data isn't very standard

Why not all publish 20m 50m and 100m so we can hacve a proper side by side.

ATB

Mark

The "CE" testing leaves room for manufacturer guidlines.. The standard is 40m if not specified by the manufacturer, by the rules AP uses they move their rating to 20m.

Mark Chase · 11th October 2007, 21:30

Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski)

The "CE" testing leaves room for manufacturer guidlines.. The standard is 40m if not specified by the manufacturer, by the rules AP uses they move their rating to 20m.

Brilient work AP.

I meen we all purchased CCR's to do lots of diving at 20m didnt we

So how did that meeting go i wonder...

CE Man: Well the standard is 40m

Martin: Screw that we want to look good so we will do ours at 20m

CE Man: Oh OK then

Kevin Gurr: Bloody hell best do ours at 15m so we look significantly better than AP. Anyway 15m is a very relevent depth to the average Boris owner

ATB

Mark

***jradomski*** · 11th October 2007, 21:33

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase)

Brilient work AP.

I meen we all purchased CCR's to do lots of diving at 20m didnt we

So how did that meeting go i wonder...

CE Man: Well the standard is 40m

Martin: Screw that we want to look good so we will do ours at 20m

CE Man: Oh OK then

Kevin Gurr: Bloody hell best do ours at 15m so we look significantly better than AP. Anyway 15m is a very relevent depth to the average Boris owner

ATB

Mark

Except the Inspiration was tested BEFORE there was the rebreather standard..

Mark Chase · 11th October 2007, 21:38

Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski)

Except the Inspiration was tested BEFORE there was the rebreather standard..

So it dosent necessarily comply with the modern CE standards for a CCR

Excelent

What about the Vision??? Surley that should have been tested to the latest standards?

ATB

Mark

jqn · 12th October 2007, 01:47

As far as I can see, this is only relevant in comparison with another rebreather but gives us no information about diving the s/k. I think there is plenty of empirical data on dives between 50m and 75m on the s/k in 10 -14 degrees C water for durations of an hour that belie the implication here. As Mike said, it is a surprise we are here.

I have been looking at the theoretical scrubber equations and time is highly non-linear in the inputs. So, I think what we conclude is; if you are working really hard, you can over breathe the scrubber and the reaction zone will extend beyond the scrubber -- so, elevated CO2 levels.

It doesn't help us understand diving the unit.

How about 75M, relaxed dive, at 12 degrees? I think the theory should give you about 1.85 hours to breakthrough.

Jerry

silent running · 12th October 2007, 01:48

Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski)

the one thing to note on the classic is that the duration is stated at 40m.. most of the other rigs tested state the max duration based on ~20m testing..

Yes Joe. I don't know why the EU use the 20M depth, the 18M depth for the Prism unmanned testing was specified by USN. The unit was tested at multiple depths, both manned and unmanned and the results have not been released yet. Maybe Alex can clarify why 20M was chosen by the EU. Maybe it's an average depth of a typical recreational profile? I don't know. Would testing a scrubber with a continuous flow at an average depth be a good way to evaluate it and make planning your dives around this time simpler? Maybe, but again, I don't know if averages are an accurate way to plan scrubber life on a multi level dive.

I think useful testing could be of 3 kinds:

1) Unmanned coldwater testing of common profiles for CCR like say, a 70M dive with a 30 minute bottom time at a moderately high workload and of course the deco stops that come with them.

2) A sort of sprint test to see just how high the CO2 flow would have to be to bypass the scrubber at the beginning, middle and end of a given scrubber's life, like Stefan suggested.

Or 3) Just test every 10M depth down to 150M in cold water at a moderately high workrate unitl breakthrough and maybe these data could be put into dive planning software like any other element of dive planning-deco obligations, O2 exposure, gas consumption, etc.

It would be nice to have limits we could use in real world diving, instead of worst case scenerios. Doesn't seem like so much to ask for...

11th October 2007, 19:04	#11 (permalink)
*Decodiver* Administrator Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Ouroboros rEvo Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Inspiration Vision Evolution Sport Kiss Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Geneva Posts: 2,164	Re: KISS Announces Results of Scrubber Duration Testing Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski) the one thing to note on the classic is that the duration is stated at 40m.. most of the other rigs tested state the duration based on ~20m testing.. Not the Ouroboros....................................... __________________ CCR/OC Trimix Instructor Trainer CCR Training to Mixed Gas in Switzerland, France, UK & Germany on Megalodon/COPIS-Megalodon/KISS/Sport KISS/Ouroboros/rEvo/Inspiration/Evolution/Sentinel www.zerogravitydiving.com Rebreather World Terms & Conditions
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11th October 2007, 20:08	#12 (permalink)
peter New Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Göteborg/Sweden Posts: 45	Re: KISS Announces Results of Scrubber Duration Testing Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase) At least the base lines are comparable with other known units. Id like to see the test data for a Meg and rEvo beside this and the Inspo & Boris data. The data for Inspo, Evo and Boris.. "The Inspiration's time on nominal 2.5kg sofnolime at 20m is 180mins in 4C, at 100m it is 82 mins to 5 mbar. The Oroboros on nominal 2.75kg of sofnolime is 210 mins at 15m and 90 mins at 100m again to 5 mbar. The Evolution (2.0 kg) is 120 mins and 55 mins." Cut from this post, http://www.rebreatherworld.com/gener....html#post7381 I would also like to see the data for Meg and rEvo. __________________ Peter
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11th October 2007, 20:48	#13 (permalink)
Mark Chase I go down for ages Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kent Posts: 2,418	Re: KISS Announces Results of Scrubber Duration Testing Quote: (Originally Posted by peter) The data for Inspo, Evo and Boris.. "The Inspiration's time on nominal 2.5kg sofnolime at 20m is 180mins in 4C, at 100m it is 82 mins to 5 mbar. The Oroboros on nominal 2.75kg of sofnolime is 210 mins at 15m and 90 mins at 100m again to 5 mbar. The Evolution (2.0 kg) is 120 mins and 55 mins." Cut from this post, http://www.rebreatherworld.com/gener....html#post7381 I would also like to see the data for Meg and rEvo. So the only direct comparison is the 100m one. Which will surprise a lot of people in that the Boris rates only an extra 8mins?? Perhaps we should look at it as an extra 9%. However the test figures for the Inspo are at 20m the boris is at 15 and the KISS is at 40M Frankly if the KISS does 2 hours 37 @ 40 and the classic only manages 3hours at 20 the KISS is looking good. Or is it? For a standard set of CE tests the available data isn't very standard Why not all publish 20m 50m and 100m so we can hacve a proper side by side. ATB Mark __________________ Is it supposed to make that noise ? I took my unit to the dive shop and demanded they bolt on every thing that would fit. Join my elite diving teem and get a Tshirt "Doing It Chasey"Hammerhead Eccr Advanced Diving System
(Online)

11th October 2007, 21:16	#14 (permalink)
*jradomski* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx Posts: 2,800	Re: KISS Announces Results of Scrubber Duration Testing Quote: (Originally Posted by Decodiver) Not the Ouroboros....................................... The max published duration was shallower.. I was being "generous" since I dont think 5m is going to make that significant a difference.. __________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated.
(Online)

11th October 2007, 21:20	#15 (permalink)
*jradomski* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx Posts: 2,800	Re: KISS Announces Results of Scrubber Duration Testing Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase) So the only direct comparison is the 100m one. Which will surprise a lot of people in that the Boris rates only an extra 8mins?? Perhaps we should look at it as an extra 9%. However the test figures for the Inspo are at 20m the boris is at 15 and the KISS is at 40M Frankly if the KISS does 2 hours 37 @ 40 and the classic only manages 3hours at 20 the KISS is looking good. Or is it? For a standard set of CE tests the available data isn't very standard Why not all publish 20m 50m and 100m so we can hacve a proper side by side. ATB Mark The "CE" testing leaves room for manufacturer guidlines.. The standard is 40m if not specified by the manufacturer, by the rules AP uses they move their rating to 20m. __________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated.
(Online)

11th October 2007, 21:30	#16 (permalink)
Mark Chase I go down for ages Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kent Posts: 2,418	Re: KISS Announces Results of Scrubber Duration Testing Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski) The "CE" testing leaves room for manufacturer guidlines.. The standard is 40m if not specified by the manufacturer, by the rules AP uses they move their rating to 20m. Brilient work AP. I meen we all purchased CCR's to do lots of diving at 20m didnt we So how did that meeting go i wonder... CE Man: Well the standard is 40m Martin: Screw that we want to look good so we will do ours at 20m CE Man: Oh OK then Kevin Gurr: Bloody hell best do ours at 15m so we look significantly better than AP. Anyway 15m is a very relevent depth to the average Boris owner ATB Mark __________________ Is it supposed to make that noise ? I took my unit to the dive shop and demanded they bolt on every thing that would fit. Join my elite diving teem and get a Tshirt "Doing It Chasey"Hammerhead Eccr Advanced Diving System
(Online)

11th October 2007, 21:33	#17 (permalink)
*jradomski* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx Posts: 2,800	Re: KISS Announces Results of Scrubber Duration Testing Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase) Brilient work AP. I meen we all purchased CCR's to do lots of diving at 20m didnt we So how did that meeting go i wonder... CE Man: Well the standard is 40m Martin: Screw that we want to look good so we will do ours at 20m CE Man: Oh OK then Kevin Gurr: Bloody hell best do ours at 15m so we look significantly better than AP. Anyway 15m is a very relevent depth to the average Boris owner ATB Mark Except the Inspiration was tested BEFORE there was the rebreather standard.. __________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated.
(Online)

11th October 2007, 21:38	#18 (permalink)
Mark Chase I go down for ages Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kent Posts: 2,418	Re: KISS Announces Results of Scrubber Duration Testing Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski) Except the Inspiration was tested BEFORE there was the rebreather standard.. So it dosent necessarily comply with the modern CE standards for a CCR Excelent What about the Vision??? Surley that should have been tested to the latest standards? ATB Mark __________________ Is it supposed to make that noise ? I took my unit to the dive shop and demanded they bolt on every thing that would fit. Join my elite diving teem and get a Tshirt "Doing It Chasey"Hammerhead Eccr Advanced Diving System
(Online)

12th October 2007, 01:47	#19 (permalink)
jqn New Member Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: May 2005 Location: So. California Posts: 71	Re: KISS Announces Results of Scrubber Duration Testing As far as I can see, this is only relevant in comparison with another rebreather but gives us no information about diving the s/k. I think there is plenty of empirical data on dives between 50m and 75m on the s/k in 10 -14 degrees C water for durations of an hour that belie the implication here. As Mike said, it is a surprise we are here. I have been looking at the theoretical scrubber equations and time is highly non-linear in the inputs. So, I think what we conclude is; if you are working really hard, you can over breathe the scrubber and the reaction zone will extend beyond the scrubber -- so, elevated CO2 levels. It doesn't help us understand diving the unit. How about 75M, relaxed dive, at 12 degrees? I think the theory should give you about 1.85 hours to breakthrough. Jerry
(Online)

12th October 2007, 01:48	#20 (permalink)
silent running Mature mouth breather Current Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: U.S.A. Brooklyn, New York Posts: 1,748	Re: KISS Announces Results of Scrubber Duration Testing Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski) the one thing to note on the classic is that the duration is stated at 40m.. most of the other rigs tested state the max duration based on ~20m testing.. Yes Joe. I don't know why the EU use the 20M depth, the 18M depth for the Prism unmanned testing was specified by USN. The unit was tested at multiple depths, both manned and unmanned and the results have not been released yet. Maybe Alex can clarify why 20M was chosen by the EU. Maybe it's an average depth of a typical recreational profile? I don't know. Would testing a scrubber with a continuous flow at an average depth be a good way to evaluate it and make planning your dives around this time simpler? Maybe, but again, I don't know if averages are an accurate way to plan scrubber life on a multi level dive. I think useful testing could be of 3 kinds: 1) Unmanned coldwater testing of common profiles for CCR like say, a 70M dive with a 30 minute bottom time at a moderately high workload and of course the deco stops that come with them. 2) A sort of sprint test to see just how high the CO2 flow would have to be to bypass the scrubber at the beginning, middle and end of a given scrubber's life, like Stefan suggested. Or 3) Just test every 10M depth down to 150M in cold water at a moderately high workrate unitl breakthrough and maybe these data could be put into dive planning software like any other element of dive planning-deco obligations, O2 exposure, gas consumption, etc. It would be nice to have limits we could use in real world diving, instead of worst case scenerios. Doesn't seem like so much to ask for...
(Offline)

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