Cost of training for Kiss Sport

***Decodiver*** · 26th July 2007, 21:19

Quote: (Originally Posted by RonMicjan)

and then, your extensive training will be worth every penny that you paid for it!

I bet the city of chicago accepted you as a fireman straightaway when you told them you were self trained too, eh?

Ha f u r k i n ha!

Well said Ronnie.

Cheers,

Dave Cooper.

PS Self taught people only have THEMSELVES to blame when things go Pete Tong.

voodoogas · 26th July 2007, 22:33

Quote: (Originally Posted by Rhino_Portland_Oregon)

As I recently posted earlier I just bought a Sport Kiss unit. I had no issues paying the cost of the unit and computer, but I am unsure if I am getting hosed on the cost of training....

I was told AFTER I bought the unit that the training cost would be $1500 + the expenses of the instructor for a week (ie. Hotel, food, travel)....

Now that seems a little outrageous to me, so I am asking what others paid for training... Don't get me wrong if that's the cost, then that's the cost and I will throw down for it, but it seems mighty steep...

Please let me know what you paid to get the cert....

I charge $1450 plus any consumables. You are paying for a professional's time. Pay the right guy and get the right training. Do not take any shortcuts.

denzel · 26th July 2007, 23:05

you're paying for a professional.....
Keep in mind that we are talking dive instructors here, and I absolutely don't want to say anything bad about any instructor (who posted here) but it's still largely a profession dominated by hobby-ists.

If you have done your IT, and you have done the miles, and you have got the experience and (sometimes lacking with Tech instructors) the teaching skills then yes, you are worth some money.
And $300 a day is maybe not even unfair. You do have "hidden" cost as your equipment, fees, insurance etc etc
But if you want to hold on to the $300 then all these amounts are good, based on 1 student. If and when I was to rock up with 3 co-students, would the price per person drop, or would the instructor be worth $1200 a day?

Denz.

**DeepBlueInnovation** · 26th July 2007, 23:33

Actually Denz, I disagree on that one. Teaching isn't just about direct time with student and teacher; there is the preparation time both before and after training to consider. In addition, diving is generally a seasonal activity unless you are particularly keen. For example, when was the last time you got wet...and yes I mean the ocean

With general scuba there is a sufficient client base for instructors to teach year-round, in Australia particularly that would be significantly more difficult as there are relatively insignificant numbers of students available. Consider the lengths someone like Luke goes to in order to be able to run his boat and instruct - I can guarantee that today he will be doing maintenance on Vet clinics just to keep his business going until the weather improves. All these things have to be considered when determining the price of training. Sure, market factors influence what someone can charge; and word does get around within the tech community as to who are the instructors that know their stuff and who doesn't - those who do will be able to charge a good rate. For these reasons I don't think the price should drop if more students do a course (I think most agencies specify a max of three anyway)

In relation to training yourself I think the legal adage of "a person who represents them self in court has a fool for a client" applies. You can read all the books, have all the theoretical knowledge available, but it still will not compare to the knowledge obtained through a good instructor. A good instructor will know the quirks of the unit they are training on (diving a prism I know all about quirks

) and their skills as a trainer will reduce your learning curve. Is a few shekels that important to you that you would prefer to make mistakes yourself instead of benefiting from others? What price a life?

Cheers,

Ben.

denzel · 27th July 2007, 00:13

Me? wet, wel, I, mm, okies, ocean, yeah that's different and a while ago.For reasons that have nothing to do with instructors or instructing, but mainly being spoiled having worked for years and years in the Red Sea and the top spots on the GBR..... Don't get me wrong, I enjoy Perth diving, and it's great in it's own right, but mmmm, well, you get the idea. It's also cold.

Back to topic. If an individual decides to become a dive instructor, then she or he chooses that path for a variety of reasons, but money isn't generally one of them. From experience, the easiest way for an instructor to tripple his or her income is to start lugging drill rods in the desert..

What it comes down to is that diving is a hobby, and ppl (can/will) only spend so much on a hobby. And for all the voices that say, then find another hobby, that's none of your business. Everyone has the right to choose what she or he wants to do for fun, and how much he or she is able or willing to spend on said fun. Therefore if training becomes an obstacle because of price, then ppl will either try to learn themselfs with all the risks, or ppl who have a regular job will jump in and teach in their weekends, and will be able to offer same quality for much less money. And I don't buy into the argument that an instructor who teaches for a living is per definiton better then someone who does it as a side job/ hobby. Usually the latter have some enthousiasm left and it's not just their job....

Having said all this, I do believe in good and proper training, I believe in good and bad instructors, but again, just because it's your full time job doesn't mean your good. And just because it's just a thing on the side, or teaching because you like to in the weekends, doesn't mean you're crap.

And for the ppl who yell about "unfair competition" and "undercutting", nobody promised it/ life would be fair, and it's a market economy and if you don't like that, move to russia.

Denz.

PS. yes, I will seek training from an instructor I respect and value much if and when my bloody inspo ever get's to live... I'm all for proper instruction.

voodoogas · 27th July 2007, 17:51

Quote: (Originally Posted by Rhino_Portland_Oregon)

As I recently posted earlier I just bought a Sport Kiss unit. I had no issues paying the cost of the unit and computer, but I am unsure if I am getting hosed on the cost of training....

I was told AFTER I bought the unit that the training cost would be $1500 + the expenses of the instructor for a week (ie. Hotel, food, travel)....

Now that seems a little outrageous to me, so I am asking what others paid for training... Don't get me wrong if that's the cost, then that's the cost and I will throw down for it, but it seems mighty steep...

Please let me know what you paid to get the cert....

By the way I have Jeff Powelson from Aquatic Sports and Scuba, in Portaland, coming down to my store in LA the second week of August to go through our users program. You should come down with him and learn the unit with us. We'll do our dives at San Clemente Island and Catalina Island. We're talking around the 16th through the 19th. Call me 888-99-SCUBA

Mike · 29th July 2007, 10:32

Quote: (Originally Posted by voodoogas)

You are paying for a professional's time.

A professional???

Lets be a little be serious here, a instructor has done a course that took, perhaps, a couple of weeks, and that makes them a professional?

How many KISS instructors can actually explain how a KISS valve works? (See the debates as to whether it is a sonic orifice or not). Outline the current deco theories and the evidence in support for each of them? Explain the gas kinetics that affect WOB on the rebreather they are teaching on? Explain the difference in theoretical CO2 absorbtion per unit volume of different sorbs? Etc - you get the idea.

In most professions, people start with a degree or two, then spend some years working under experienced practitioners before becoming a 'professional'. At a minimum, a 'professional' rebreather instructor would have to earn the bulk of their income from teaching people to dive rebreathers. How many people is this actually true of?

A fair price to teach someone scuba is probably around $500. Think how much is required to teach someone to dive for the first time vs how much is required to take an already competant diver and tech them how to dive a bit of equipment that is actually simpler (excluding electronics) that a regulator first stage? So how much should a CCR course cost?

Supply and demand, and linked sales. Isn't it wonderful.

Mike

RonMicjan · 29th July 2007, 16:47

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mike)

A professional???

Lets be a little be serious here, a instructor has done a course that took, perhaps, a couple of weeks, and that makes them a professional?

A couple week course??? excuse me? I have been learning to be an instructor since my first open water course pool dive, lets see, thats almost 10 years ago. Sure, I made it to PADI OWSI in only 2 years and about 200 dives, but thats not hard. Now, lets add in all the costs and time required getting to the point I could become an instructor for CCR, must teach so many nitrox students, advEANx, a couple hundred more dives, buy my first SCR, pay for instruction, learn the rig, another hundred dives, become a SCR instructor, turn that unit into a CCR with a KISS valve, dive the crap out of that, graduate to a KISS unit, then a Meg, (another $18,000) become instructor on KISS (another $1500), co-teach two courses on the Meg with Leon (another 2 weeks of my life) to get to instructor on that unit. This has been a very expensive and time consuming education. I teach because I enjoy doing it, I think Im pretty good at it (students seem to come away compentent and happy) and maybe after a couple years I might begin to make back some of what I put in to it. If someone is only making a wage doing this work, they might end up cutting corners, taking shortcuts, cause hey, they can make $10/hour sweeping floors, where there are no lives hanging in the balance.

I dont regret the time and money I have spent, cause its been a great ride, met some stellar folks, done some awe inspiring dives, but if you think its been a walk in the park buster, you are sadly mistaken. What did you pay for your CCR instruction? I'll bet Karl will sell you a K-1 and you can teach yourself, I recall something like "The blind leading the blind".

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mike)

How many KISS instructors can actually explain how a KISS valve works? (See the debates as to whether it is a sonic orifice or not). Outline the current deco theories and the evidence in support for each of them? Explain the gas kinetics that affect WOB on the rebreather they are teaching on? Explain the difference in theoretical CO2 absorbtion per unit volume of different sorbs? Etc - you get the idea.

I can explain to the student how the valve works, minus the math, how many driving instructors can explain how an ICE works? Or hydralic brakes, ABS, etc,
We should all be able to explain deco models, but deco isnt even a part of the entry level user course of CCR (want to add in another day of training for comprehensive deco explanations? Folks groan at 5-7 days. Evidence to support??? even the experts cant agree on that. Sorbs? how many different sorbs do we need to explain? large grain, small grain, so now you want students to calculate the exact minute their sorb is going to expire? Whose A$$ did you pull that question from?

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mike)

In most professions, people start with a degree or two, then spend some years working under experienced practitioners before becoming a 'professional'. At a minimum, a 'professional' rebreather instructor would have to earn the bulk of their income from teaching people to dive rebreathers. How many people is this actually true of?

See above, what do you think I have been doing for the last 10 years? Not a single person that I ever took a course from ever did it full time. Leon Scamahorn, Joe Dituri, Bruce Partridge, Alan Studley...big names in CCR...all part time instructors, all were my instructors. Care to cross your brain with any of these guys?

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mike)

A fair price to teach someone scuba is probably around $500. Think how much is required to teach someone to dive for the first time vs how much is required to take an already competant diver and tech them how to dive a bit of equipment that is actually simpler (excluding electronics) that a regulator first stage? So how much should a CCR course cost?

I dunno, what is your life worth? Hire a compentent instructor, pay them a fair price, and swim away getting what you paid for

from the mouth of a guy who advocates an open mind...

methinks you bent over too far and your brain fell through your open mind

guess that leaves you with only talking out your A$$ left.

The system isnt perfect, but there are those of us who strive to bring as much to the table as we can, you will find plenty of PROFESSIONAL instructors in these pages, is this all they do? Probably not, are they good at teaching CCR, you bet! Why? Trust me, its not cause they are making bank doing it. Now, go home and repair your prism...again.

(teasing!)

decoweenie · 29th July 2007, 17:21

Quote: (Originally Posted by RonMicjan)

...Not a single person that I ever took a course from ever did it full time. Leon Scamahorn, Joe Dituri, Bruce Partridge, Alan Studley...big names in CCR...all part time instructors...

I am not taking side, just expand on this point.

It is very sad for me to see full-time instructors like Dave Thompson (who is a great instructor with years of teaching experience and forgot more about CCR than most of us will acquire) no longer can afford to teach full-time since a lot of the week-end-warrior instructors are teaching for free (to gain teaching knowledge) or discount so heavily to get students are driving people (like Dave) away from passing on his knowledge/experience.

Tom Rose · 29th July 2007, 17:22

Not to be a pain in the butt....but do the math....at 25 dollars an hour if the instructor worked the standard 2000 hours a year training, they would make only 50 grand a year......gross.

Figure the gear upkeep, setup time, and all those little extra costs that constantly bite you. How many can run a business that grosses 50 grand a year.

Almost no instructors are paid properly for what they deliver...even the poorer ones.

By the way, I am not an instructor...just a businessman.

Having said that, I agree that you should have checked on the training costs prior to purchase...and agree with your view that the cost is what it is. The surprise seems to be the problem...and I can understand that.

Good luck with your training,

Tom

26th July 2007, 21:19	#21 (permalink)
*Decodiver* Administrator Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Ouroboros rEvo Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Inspiration Vision Evolution Sport Kiss Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Geneva Posts: 2,179	Re: Cost of training for Kiss Sport Quote: (Originally Posted by RonMicjan) and then, your extensive training will be worth every penny that you paid for it! I bet the city of chicago accepted you as a fireman straightaway when you told them you were self trained too, eh? Ha f u r k i n ha! Well said Ronnie. Cheers, Dave Cooper. PS Self taught people only have THEMSELVES to blame when things go Pete Tong. __________________ CCR/OC Trimix Instructor Trainer CCR Training to Mixed Gas in Switzerland, France, UK & Germany on Megalodon/COPIS-Megalodon/KISS/Sport KISS/Ouroboros/rEvo/Inspiration/Evolution/Sentinel www.zerogravitydiving.com Rebreather World Terms & Conditions
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26th July 2007, 22:33	#22 (permalink)
voodoogas New Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Inspiration Vision Evolution Sport Kiss Classic Kiss Other CCR Dolphin Ray Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Dolphin Ray Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Los Angeles Area Posts: 26	Re: Cost of training for Kiss Sport Quote: (Originally Posted by Rhino_Portland_Oregon) As I recently posted earlier I just bought a Sport Kiss unit. I had no issues paying the cost of the unit and computer, but I am unsure if I am getting hosed on the cost of training.... I was told AFTER I bought the unit that the training cost would be $1500 + the expenses of the instructor for a week (ie. Hotel, food, travel).... Now that seems a little outrageous to me, so I am asking what others paid for training... Don't get me wrong if that's the cost, then that's the cost and I will throw down for it, but it seems mighty steep... Please let me know what you paid to get the cert.... I charge $1450 plus any consumables. You are paying for a professional's time. Pay the right guy and get the right training. Do not take any shortcuts. __________________ Warmest Regards, Rusty Berry, Scuba Schools of America ANDI/SSI Instructor Certifier Worldwide the Largest Retail Training Facility for Rebreathers 888-99-SCUBA rusty@scubaschoolsofamerica.com
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26th July 2007, 23:05	#23 (permalink)
denzel Holiday diver Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Perth! Posts: 358	Re: Cost of training for Kiss Sport you're paying for a professional..... Keep in mind that we are talking dive instructors here, and I absolutely don't want to say anything bad about any instructor (who posted here) but it's still largely a profession dominated by hobby-ists. If you have done your IT, and you have done the miles, and you have got the experience and (sometimes lacking with Tech instructors) the teaching skills then yes, you are worth some money. And $300 a day is maybe not even unfair. You do have "hidden" cost as your equipment, fees, insurance etc etc But if you want to hold on to the $300 then all these amounts are good, based on 1 student. If and when I was to rock up with 3 co-students, would the price per person drop, or would the instructor be worth $1200 a day? Denz. __________________ My deepest so far, 558.50 mtr, my rig a LF90D...
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26th July 2007, 23:33	#24 (permalink)
DeepBlueInnovation Between Breathers Current Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Other Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Not Bought Yet Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Perth, Western Australia Posts: 353	Re: Cost of training for Kiss Sport Actually Denz, I disagree on that one. Teaching isn't just about direct time with student and teacher; there is the preparation time both before and after training to consider. In addition, diving is generally a seasonal activity unless you are particularly keen. For example, when was the last time you got wet...and yes I mean the ocean With general scuba there is a sufficient client base for instructors to teach year-round, in Australia particularly that would be significantly more difficult as there are relatively insignificant numbers of students available. Consider the lengths someone like Luke goes to in order to be able to run his boat and instruct - I can guarantee that today he will be doing maintenance on Vet clinics just to keep his business going until the weather improves. All these things have to be considered when determining the price of training. Sure, market factors influence what someone can charge; and word does get around within the tech community as to who are the instructors that know their stuff and who doesn't - those who do will be able to charge a good rate. For these reasons I don't think the price should drop if more students do a course (I think most agencies specify a max of three anyway) In relation to training yourself I think the legal adage of "a person who represents them self in court has a fool for a client" applies. You can read all the books, have all the theoretical knowledge available, but it still will not compare to the knowledge obtained through a good instructor. A good instructor will know the quirks of the unit they are training on (diving a prism I know all about quirks ) and their skills as a trainer will reduce your learning curve. Is a few shekels that important to you that you would prefer to make mistakes yourself instead of benefiting from others? What price a life? Cheers, Ben.
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27th July 2007, 00:13	#25 (permalink)
denzel Holiday diver Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Perth! Posts: 358	Re: Cost of training for Kiss Sport Me? wet, wel, I, mm, okies, ocean, yeah that's different and a while ago.For reasons that have nothing to do with instructors or instructing, but mainly being spoiled having worked for years and years in the Red Sea and the top spots on the GBR..... Don't get me wrong, I enjoy Perth diving, and it's great in it's own right, but mmmm, well, you get the idea. It's also cold. Back to topic. If an individual decides to become a dive instructor, then she or he chooses that path for a variety of reasons, but money isn't generally one of them. From experience, the easiest way for an instructor to tripple his or her income is to start lugging drill rods in the desert.. What it comes down to is that diving is a hobby, and ppl (can/will) only spend so much on a hobby. And for all the voices that say, then find another hobby, that's none of your business. Everyone has the right to choose what she or he wants to do for fun, and how much he or she is able or willing to spend on said fun. Therefore if training becomes an obstacle because of price, then ppl will either try to learn themselfs with all the risks, or ppl who have a regular job will jump in and teach in their weekends, and will be able to offer same quality for much less money. And I don't buy into the argument that an instructor who teaches for a living is per definiton better then someone who does it as a side job/ hobby. Usually the latter have some enthousiasm left and it's not just their job.... Having said all this, I do believe in good and proper training, I believe in good and bad instructors, but again, just because it's your full time job doesn't mean your good. And just because it's just a thing on the side, or teaching because you like to in the weekends, doesn't mean you're crap. And for the ppl who yell about "unfair competition" and "undercutting", nobody promised it/ life would be fair, and it's a market economy and if you don't like that, move to russia. Denz. PS. yes, I will seek training from an instructor I respect and value much if and when my bloody inspo ever get's to live... I'm all for proper instruction. __________________ My deepest so far, 558.50 mtr, my rig a LF90D...
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27th July 2007, 17:51	#26 (permalink)
voodoogas New Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Inspiration Vision Evolution Sport Kiss Classic Kiss Other CCR Dolphin Ray Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Dolphin Ray Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Los Angeles Area Posts: 26	Re: Cost of training for Kiss Sport Quote: (Originally Posted by Rhino_Portland_Oregon) As I recently posted earlier I just bought a Sport Kiss unit. I had no issues paying the cost of the unit and computer, but I am unsure if I am getting hosed on the cost of training.... I was told AFTER I bought the unit that the training cost would be $1500 + the expenses of the instructor for a week (ie. Hotel, food, travel).... Now that seems a little outrageous to me, so I am asking what others paid for training... Don't get me wrong if that's the cost, then that's the cost and I will throw down for it, but it seems mighty steep... Please let me know what you paid to get the cert.... By the way I have Jeff Powelson from Aquatic Sports and Scuba, in Portaland, coming down to my store in LA the second week of August to go through our users program. You should come down with him and learn the unit with us. We'll do our dives at San Clemente Island and Catalina Island. We're talking around the 16th through the 19th. Call me 888-99-SCUBA __________________ Warmest Regards, Rusty Berry, Scuba Schools of America ANDI/SSI Instructor Certifier Worldwide the Largest Retail Training Facility for Rebreathers 888-99-SCUBA rusty@scubaschoolsofamerica.com
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29th July 2007, 10:32	#27 (permalink)
Mike Prism 'prentice Current Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Evolution Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Melbourne Posts: 327	Re: Cost of training for Kiss Sport Quote: (Originally Posted by voodoogas) You are paying for a professional's time. A professional??? Lets be a little be serious here, a instructor has done a course that took, perhaps, a couple of weeks, and that makes them a professional? How many KISS instructors can actually explain how a KISS valve works? (See the debates as to whether it is a sonic orifice or not). Outline the current deco theories and the evidence in support for each of them? Explain the gas kinetics that affect WOB on the rebreather they are teaching on? Explain the difference in theoretical CO2 absorbtion per unit volume of different sorbs? Etc - you get the idea. In most professions, people start with a degree or two, then spend some years working under experienced practitioners before becoming a 'professional'. At a minimum, a 'professional' rebreather instructor would have to earn the bulk of their income from teaching people to dive rebreathers. How many people is this actually true of? A fair price to teach someone scuba is probably around $500. Think how much is required to teach someone to dive for the first time vs how much is required to take an already competant diver and tech them how to dive a bit of equipment that is actually simpler (excluding electronics) that a regulator first stage? So how much should a CCR course cost? Supply and demand, and linked sales. Isn't it wonderful. Mike __________________ Open ....... Closed Mind ........ Loop
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29th July 2007, 16:47	#28 (permalink)
RonMicjan Cap Ron scourge of the NW Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Dolphin Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Classic Kiss Dolphin Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cape Disapointment, The Graveyard of the Pacific Posts: 1,083	Re: Cost of training for Kiss Sport Quote: (Originally Posted by Mike) A professional??? Lets be a little be serious here, a instructor has done a course that took, perhaps, a couple of weeks, and that makes them a professional? A couple week course??? excuse me? I have been learning to be an instructor since my first open water course pool dive, lets see, thats almost 10 years ago. Sure, I made it to PADI OWSI in only 2 years and about 200 dives, but thats not hard. Now, lets add in all the costs and time required getting to the point I could become an instructor for CCR, must teach so many nitrox students, advEANx, a couple hundred more dives, buy my first SCR, pay for instruction, learn the rig, another hundred dives, become a SCR instructor, turn that unit into a CCR with a KISS valve, dive the crap out of that, graduate to a KISS unit, then a Meg, (another $18,000) become instructor on KISS (another $1500), co-teach two courses on the Meg with Leon (another 2 weeks of my life) to get to instructor on that unit. This has been a very expensive and time consuming education. I teach because I enjoy doing it, I think Im pretty good at it (students seem to come away compentent and happy) and maybe after a couple years I might begin to make back some of what I put in to it. If someone is only making a wage doing this work, they might end up cutting corners, taking shortcuts, cause hey, they can make $10/hour sweeping floors, where there are no lives hanging in the balance. I dont regret the time and money I have spent, cause its been a great ride, met some stellar folks, done some awe inspiring dives, but if you think its been a walk in the park buster, you are sadly mistaken. What did you pay for your CCR instruction? I'll bet Karl will sell you a K-1 and you can teach yourself, I recall something like "The blind leading the blind". Quote: (Originally Posted by Mike) How many KISS instructors can actually explain how a KISS valve works? (See the debates as to whether it is a sonic orifice or not). Outline the current deco theories and the evidence in support for each of them? Explain the gas kinetics that affect WOB on the rebreather they are teaching on? Explain the difference in theoretical CO2 absorbtion per unit volume of different sorbs? Etc - you get the idea. I can explain to the student how the valve works, minus the math, how many driving instructors can explain how an ICE works? Or hydralic brakes, ABS, etc, We should all be able to explain deco models, but deco isnt even a part of the entry level user course of CCR (want to add in another day of training for comprehensive deco explanations? Folks groan at 5-7 days. Evidence to support??? even the experts cant agree on that. Sorbs? how many different sorbs do we need to explain? large grain, small grain, so now you want students to calculate the exact minute their sorb is going to expire? Whose A$$ did you pull that question from? Quote: (Originally Posted by Mike) In most professions, people start with a degree or two, then spend some years working under experienced practitioners before becoming a 'professional'. At a minimum, a 'professional' rebreather instructor would have to earn the bulk of their income from teaching people to dive rebreathers. How many people is this actually true of? See above, what do you think I have been doing for the last 10 years? Not a single person that I ever took a course from ever did it full time. Leon Scamahorn, Joe Dituri, Bruce Partridge, Alan Studley...big names in CCR...all part time instructors, all were my instructors. Care to cross your brain with any of these guys? Quote: (Originally Posted by Mike) A fair price to teach someone scuba is probably around $500. Think how much is required to teach someone to dive for the first time vs how much is required to take an already competant diver and tech them how to dive a bit of equipment that is actually simpler (excluding electronics) that a regulator first stage? So how much should a CCR course cost? I dunno, what is your life worth? Hire a compentent instructor, pay them a fair price, and swim away getting what you paid for from the mouth of a guy who advocates an open mind... methinks you bent over too far and your brain fell through your open mind guess that leaves you with only talking out your A$$ left. The system isnt perfect, but there are those of us who strive to bring as much to the table as we can, you will find plenty of PROFESSIONAL instructors in these pages, is this all they do? Probably not, are they good at teaching CCR, you bet! Why? Trust me, its not cause they are making bank doing it. Now, go home and repair your prism...again. (teasing!) __________________ Ron "Life is pain princess, anyone who tells you different, is selling something", The Dread Pirate Wesley. www.tmishop.com Diving bits etc.
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29th July 2007, 17:21	#29 (permalink)
decoweenie Crash Test Dummy Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cairo Posts: 5,510	Re: Cost of training for Kiss Sport Quote: (Originally Posted by RonMicjan) ...Not a single person that I ever took a course from ever did it full time. Leon Scamahorn, Joe Dituri, Bruce Partridge, Alan Studley...big names in CCR...all part time instructors... I am not taking side, just expand on this point. It is very sad for me to see full-time instructors like Dave Thompson (who is a great instructor with years of teaching experience and forgot more about CCR than most of us will acquire) no longer can afford to teach full-time since a lot of the week-end-warrior instructors are teaching for free (to gain teaching knowledge) or discount so heavily to get students are driving people (like Dave) away from passing on his knowledge/experience. __________________ "...after a while you get bored offering advice to a bull that like to keep butting the fence with its head rather than walking through the open gate..." - Rebreather World PM
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29th July 2007, 17:22	#30 (permalink)
Tom Rose Still Learning Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: USA,North Carolina Posts: 330	Re: Cost of training for Kiss Sport Not to be a pain in the butt....but do the math....at 25 dollars an hour if the instructor worked the standard 2000 hours a year training, they would make only 50 grand a year......gross. Figure the gear upkeep, setup time, and all those little extra costs that constantly bite you. How many can run a business that grosses 50 grand a year. Almost no instructors are paid properly for what they deliver...even the poorer ones. By the way, I am not an instructor...just a businessman. Having said that, I agree that you should have checked on the training costs prior to purchase...and agree with your view that the cost is what it is. The surprise seems to be the problem...and I can understand that. Good luck with your training, Tom __________________ The 50-50-90 rule: Anytime I have a 50-50 chance of getting something right, there's a 90% probability I'll get it wrong the first time. www.atlimp.com
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