SAR K9 Diver - CCR help

K9Diver

My interest in CCR's stems from training Search and Rescue Dogs for water recovery, we teach our dogs to find people (notice I said recovery) in the water, currently we use Scuba gear, but with the exhaust from the gear we tend to spend more time duplicating exhaust bubbles threw other means rather then focus on scent work.
Hence-the reason for CCR's - looking for help on unit type - training - and what you guys think of equipment-
IM really looking for easy to use, maintain and not to bulky as we reward our dogs that are searching from a boat while we come up from below.
Picture yourself in the water and something trying to jerk your hand off over your head-with your gear on.
Most of our Training is done in Pax river and the Potomac River, muddy and cant see more then a foot ot two if your lucky
Thanks for reading and I hope I can find the right unit and a lot of help
K9 Diver

teksimple

Interesting. But not sure I quite understand. How would reduced bubbles help the dogs smell cadavers? Um, do dogs sniff scents from the water? What am I missing?

Doorduijn, Niels

K9,

There are a number of options which come to mind.

The easiest solution of all is probably an pure O2 rebreather as they are relatively easy to use, less expensive then SCR and CCR units and rather compact.

I am not really informed about the various models O2 rebreathers and I am not sure which types you could buy in the US. In Europe, the OMG 96 comes to mind (Photos C96), which I believe is sold for about Euro 1500. The most famous O2 rebreather is obviously the LAR-V, a military rebreather, but it is very expensive and hard to get. There is a database on O2 rebreathers on Rebreathers Worldwide.

O2 rebreathers have several issues to be aware of. First and most importantly, they are severely depth limited. For recreational divers, the maximum depth is generally considered to be 6 meters. Get deeper and you risk getting something called an O2 hit, which can kill you. There is also a time limit, which is dependent on the depth. At six meters, the maximum divetime is 45 minutes per dive and 150 minutes per day. The dive time can be longer, for example by sticking to a depth of 3 meters. O2 rebreathers do not come with a jacket or wing, so you need to give some thought to your buoyancy.

An alternative you may want to consider is if depth is an issue, is the SCR rebreather. For more information, see Rebreathers Worldwide. Generally speaking, a SCR rebreather is less complex to use and cheaper than an (e)CCR unit, but the down side is that there are some bubles (less then on OC though). The Draeger Ray is problably the simplest and cheapest SCR unit on the market. A Ray can be bought secondhand, I think for about 800 euros (I have seen them cheaper, but never really looked into it).

Lastly, if you must have no bubles and depth is an issue, you get to the CCR. CCR's come in different versions: electronic (eCCR) and manual (mCCR). If you only purchase a rebreather for the training of the dogs, I would suggest that you look into the Sport Kiss (Jetsam.ca). It is by far the cheapest CCR unit on the market, it is fairly small (bigger than an O2 rebreather, but smaller than any other CCR) and it is reportedly simple to use. Getting these secondhand is possible, but, at least in Europe, the prices are relatively close to the price of a new unit.

For all units (O2, SCR, CCR), you will need training. Before purchasing a unit, make sure that you can get instruction on it. For O2 units, this may not be easy as O2 rebreathers are rare in the recreational dive world.

Have you thought about the option to ask local CCR divers to act as victims for the training of the dogs? I am sure that there are plenty of people who would be willing to help out.

If you need more info, let me know.

Rgs,

Niels Doorduijn

teksimple

Sorry for my increased density last night. Dead people don't blow bubbles, so rebreathers would increase the realism for the dog training. Niels' suggestion on the oxygen rebreather is right on.

K9Diver

Tek - Dogs do detect Human scent from the water-They detect the rafts (Dead skin cells) that rise with the currents to the top and end up in the air. We are trying to remove the bubbles all together, a well trained K-9 will learn that bubbles equal diver equal toy equal Play time. Currently we use homemade devices that reproduce a breathing diver, bubbles look the same. But with technology today we can remove that wasted effort.

Niels -
I don't think a O2 will be good for us due to the depth -- on the advanced Dogs we tend to work at 20'-25 'depths, sometimes due to current we hit the bottom and might be there for 15-45 min depending on the scenario of training.
The SCR, we actually looked at a Dragger ray (I believe) in a pool and the bubbles are less then OCS but we (Divers) voted against the unit because of the bubbles.
I haven't as yet looked seriously at the Kiss but I shall, Really been looking at the Optima and not sure why.
Currently we are trying to get our Board of Directors to fund a small class-Rebreather experience to try the Optima and the Inspiration. The class is more like a Here they are what they do try in the pool class no Cert. But if you ever Worked with a BOD then you know the pain.
We actually have some CCR divers to help, not as often as we would like but they try to get out 1 or 2 times a year. and that's not really enough.

K-9 Training - Younger dogs- Less advanced - We do more pop ups with them -Wave the toy and go under 2-3' - wait for a bark or a noise (squeek-wine anything) pop up and play - repeat those steps
Older - Advanced Dogs-For the most part you are down - 4' - 25' depending on current and scenario and your waiting for an indication, dog bark if you can hear it (OCS is Loud and up to the top for the reward (Play) Down time could be 10 min to 45 min.
The above is realy a short version of training but its to the point

Thank you both
K-9 Diver
PS, May you never need my Dog, Dive Safe

EBT

Just a wierd idea.... surface supplied OC, but rig the exhaust so it goes up a tube back to the surface.

Would be simple, minimal risk and surely easier to comply with OSHA regs?


/Z (ps, sorry rebreather guys)

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K9Diver

( Big Smile ) Hey We thought about a tarp holding the exhaust till we came top side - A small look from both divers and a negative shake of the heads turned that down

Doorduijn, Niels

6 meters equals something like 18', right? Are you sure that the extra 7' that you are referring to is worth going into CCR for? From an operational point of view, an O2 rebreather would otherwise be best suited for your purposes (the size difference between an O2 rebreather and of an Inspiration or Optima is very significant). Also, an O2 rebreather is much cheaper. (Obviously, this does require an environment that the current cannot push you into deeper water).

As for the bubles on a Ray. The amount of bubbles is linked to the orifice used in the unit. Each orife is keyed to a certain FO2 in the breathing gas. There is an orifice for 30, 40, 60 and 100% O2. The higher the percentage, the lower the gas flow through the orifice, hence less bubles. Moreover, Draeger makes a device for its military SCR units to break the bubles into very tiny bubbles (for a picture: see http://www.therebreathersite.nl/Zuur...er_lar_vii.htm , look at the top of the unit). I do not know whether it would work with a Ray, but if your organisation is linked to the government, perhaps Draeger would be willing to help you out. (The picture is of a LAR-VII unit, which in Europe are very rare units, used mainly by the military).

From what I have seen, the Kiss Sport rebreather is a lot smaller than the Optima. Personally, I would not consider purchasing the Optima as it is a new unit on the market and I prefer not to pay a producer to help him work out the initial production and quality issues (especially when there are units on the market which have been around longer). The Sport Kiss has not been long on the market, but its big brother, the Kiss has been, and the Kiss has a very good reputation.

[To be sure & honest: I have not yet heard negative feedback on the Optima and I am not sure about the reasons herefor. New units always seems to go through phases of improvements and I would expect the same with the Optima.]

The Inspiration is a well proven unit, but a "normal sized" CCR: you have to keep in mind that you will be carrying the unit on your back, have the counter lungs in front of you and the hoses going over your shoulders to the DSV (mouthpiece). The Inspiration has a little sister, the Evolution, but like the Optima it has only been in production for a short time.

When you try units out in the pool, remember that CCR diving is different from OC diving. Your buoyancy will be all over the place.

Best wishes,
Niels Doorduijn

caveseeker7

Hi K9Diver, welcome to Rebreather World.

Just a few thoughts:

You didn't mention if you're working for a law enforcement agency, fire department (i.e. communality/gov't) or for a private company. The latter would restrict access to some OEM, as some manufacturers (Dräger among them) rarely sell "military rebreathers" such as the LAR series to private companies (at the least it will add quite some red tape).

OSHA requirements may well apply since you're using the equipment in professional capacity, same for insurance requirements.

If you're in the water with the dogs, a fully enclosed dorsal rebreather is probably of great advantage. Save for hoses and displays they're well protected and behind you, no clutter on the chest. Most O2 rigs are chest mounted, and many CCRs have over-the-shoulder counterlungs with gas hoses etc nearby.

If you're mostly diving murky waters as you describe you will want a HUD, and most likely one that signals the actual pO2 rather than just warnings that need to be confirmed on displays that may not be readable in the conditions. Those HUDs using the "Smithers Code" are used in the Megalodon and Optima, and are also available as an aftermarket pO2 monitor/deco computer for the (Classic) Inspiration and Kiss, as well as in the Hammerhead for the Classic Inspiration, MK series and I believe Kiss CCRs.

O2 rebreathers are the simplest units, least amount of parts, no electronics whatsoever. The before mentioned LAR series has probably been among the most popular units for decades. Training is available through major agencies, but as mentioned, availability is restricted and they are relatively expensive. They are used outside the military quite a bit, CA Fish & Game for example has them, too.

The OMG C-96 are readily available to private parties, in the US they are distributed through Divesafe in Las Vegas, NV. Again, training is readily available, and the units cost about half of the Dräger. For shallow water applications they're hard to beat.

The ideal CCR for your application would probably be the MK15 (or 15.5 or 16), straight forward units with very good track record. The USN has mothballed a pile of them, and quite a few have been sold off over the last two or so years. They were incomplete, without seconary displays and the spherical tanks, and at their age probably required a thorough overhaul. On the other hand they didn't carry the 5 digit price tag, so new Hammerhead electronics would put them in the general financial neighborhood as most current CCRs. You may want to contact Juergensen Marine, they're the manufacturer of the Hammerhead as well as the No.1 place in the US for rebuilding MK series rigs. Some spares are hard to come by, as are the spherical tanks, but the rigs are as solid as they get. Keep them in good shape and they'll outlast everything else (well, so far they have, and with a quarter century head start).

The MK series is among the few rebreathers I know of that have been marketed and used in the professional field (oil industry, research), and that in low numbers. Another one is the PRISM, has been used by USGS as well as research divers from the University of CA and some other rearch outfit. May not work for your application with the dogs, but at least OSHA doesn't seem to mind. For insurance purposes (or the BOD), either of the rigs have set precedents which may be helpful.

A Shearwater- or Hammerhead-equipped Kiss, either Sport of Classic, would probably work well, too. Depending on your task load an electronically controlled CCR may be preferable to a manually controlled one.

Anyway, just some thoughts, hope they help.

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Stefan


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