Rebreathers are dangerous! So that is why I am here!

Armson · 8th December 2006, 05:24

I am fairly experienced OC Diver, for years I have been hearing horror stories of rebreather deaths and how a friend of a friend Knew guy that was once in a boat where a guy had died mysteriously using a rebreather. So I had been a little intimidated about Getting into the world of rebreathers. So here is how it started...

I was Diving in Hatteras, NC and I just happened upon an Anesthesiologist using a rebreather. Well when he was able to spend about 30 min more than I was on the bottom I became curious. So I started to ask questions. What's the first thing all OC Divers think about when it comes to rebreathers? The Dangers of course! So after speaking to the diver I became more and more intrigued. I mean what diver wasn't doesn't want more bottom time?

While I was getting my Open water certification I went through and looked up every horror story I could find. I made sure I understood what happened, why it happened and what could have been done to prevent it. I would go back into class and ask as many questions about where I could find more information on how to prevent bad things from happening. Well now I am back at square one asking questions so I know exactly what I am getting into and how I can make sure I always make it back to the boat in the same condition I left.

Where do I start?

-B

***caveseeker7*** · 8th December 2006, 07:21

Welcome to Rebreather Word.

Quote: (Originally Posted by Armson)

Where do I start?

Well, you already did.

You talked with someone actually diving one.
You'll find a few more of them around here.

Best way to proceed in my opinion:

- get Jeff Bozanic's "Mastering Rebreathers"
That will cover all the basic theory of Rebreather diving, different operational designs etc.

- Read the articles in the 'New to Rebreather' section in our library

- Read through our archives, as well as those on other boards (like Scubaboard and The Deco Stop). They've been around longer than we have and thus have some older info, including accidents. In our archives you'll find a lot of good info on accidents and incidents as members have luckily been quite open sharing the experiences.

- Want more accidents, google "Madmole", he has an Inspiration site. With an accident section, needs to be updated, but quite some info there. Also check his survey, it does put some numbers into perspective. Google "Wrolf's Wreck" and "Cautionary Tales". More accident reoports, hasn't been updated in a long time but worth reading if it's still around. One problem with accidents is that reports usually are not very thorough, info hard to come by. Which frequently leaves with more questions than answers.

As for deciding and diving a rebreather, have a look at the dives you do, and the ones you would like to do. No one rebreather does it all very well, so choose the one that fits your needs. If possible do an intro with an instructor, will give you some practicle experience if a rebreather is really something you want to use.

By the way, diving is dangerous.

Mark Chase · 8th December 2006, 10:20

Hi welcome aboard.

Remember that there are problems inherent with diving CCR and problems inherent in diving ECCR

Once you have those basics sorted you move on to the big gray area of problems inherent with diving the particular unit you chose to dive with.

Ask lots of Questions and PM people for more detail because many don't want to put stuff on the boards but will tell you in private.

Always respect that privacy and you will get even more info.

ATB

Mark Chase

***ScubaDadMiami*** · 8th December 2006, 15:17

Funny, I view the rebreather as a safety and life support, not as an endangerment. Sure, when it goes wrong, it can go very wrong. However, in most cases, CCR presents more options when this happens including going back to open circuit.

I was not attracted to the "danger" of CCR; I went to it for its safety aspects.

Genesis · 8th December 2006, 17:37

Rebreathers severely punish lack of attention.

If that's not one of your problems, then they can actually add safety.

An example I've posted here before:

You're teleported into the cargo hold of a ship underwater at 200' wearing only a mask. You have no idea where you are, or where "out" is. You have in front of you a twinset and a rebreather. You may choose to strap either on and attempt to use it to exit and get back to the surface.

I know what I pick.

Part of the "gotcha" in most OC accidents is the element of TIME. You come out of a shipwreck and, having foolishly left your deco gas outside, you find its not there (in truth you came out a different hole than you went in most likely!) The vis sucks bananas. Now what?

Or, you're in a cave way back in wherever, and your scooter sticks on. In the attempt to get it under control you manage to plow the bottom and zero the visability. You now have a non-working scooter, you're 4,000' back from the entrance, you have a decent idea of where the line is (but you're not on it) and you can't see. On OC this is a life-threatening emergency. On a CCR, most of the time, its bad - but not nearly AS bad.

There are no trade-offs without costs; all "good" comes with a "bad."

**Gill Envy** · 8th December 2006, 20:33

back when i was first learning oc i remember one of my mentors telling me how the greatest danger zone for oc divers was the first 30 dives when panic can cause poor judgement and then again after about 70 dives when confidence can turn to complacency. I remembered this again after my 75th dive, didn't pay attention to tidal predictions, was at 115 fsw in a strong down welling, clawing at the sand and praying for my life. This began the next phase of taking it all much more seriously.
from what i can tell so far, with rebreathers, that second curve probably comes on later and then never really goes away. Repetition insures good habits, but eventually repetition can lead to going through the motions which can eventually lead to thinking you've gone through the motions when you actually haven't. The folks who bite it in this sport are often the most experienced, and even on relitively routine dives. My suspicion is that over time the key to safe rebreather diving is keeping habits from becoming too second nature and always being prepared to deal if things go south.

Armson · 9th December 2006, 00:30

Guys Thanks for answering my questions and being understanding. I am going to do some reading and I will fire off another round of questions when I get the chance.

ON a slightly different note. I plan to do my training through VAscuba from the short time I have spent talking to them they seem like top notch guys. Any body have recomendations about places to get rebreather certified?

-B

8th December 2006, 05:24	#1 (permalink)
Armson New Member Current Rebreather/s: Optima Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Manassas, VA Posts: 11	Rebreathers are dangerous! So that is why I am here! I am fairly experienced OC Diver, for years I have been hearing horror stories of rebreather deaths and how a friend of a friend Knew guy that was once in a boat where a guy had died mysteriously using a rebreather. So I had been a little intimidated about Getting into the world of rebreathers. So here is how it started... I was Diving in Hatteras, NC and I just happened upon an Anesthesiologist using a rebreather. Well when he was able to spend about 30 min more than I was on the bottom I became curious. So I started to ask questions. What's the first thing all OC Divers think about when it comes to rebreathers? The Dangers of course! So after speaking to the diver I became more and more intrigued. I mean what diver wasn't doesn't want more bottom time? While I was getting my Open water certification I went through and looked up every horror story I could find. I made sure I understood what happened, why it happened and what could have been done to prevent it. I would go back into class and ask as many questions about where I could find more information on how to prevent bad things from happening. Well now I am back at square one asking questions so I know exactly what I am getting into and how I can make sure I always make it back to the boat in the same condition I left. Where do I start? -B
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8th December 2006, 07:21	#2 (permalink)
*caveseeker7* Who loves ya, baby Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Too far from Neverland Posts: 5,325	Re: Rebreathers are dangerous! So that is why I am here! Welcome to Rebreather Word. Quote: (Originally Posted by Armson) Where do I start? Well, you already did. You talked with someone actually diving one. You'll find a few more of them around here. Best way to proceed in my opinion: - get Jeff Bozanic's "Mastering Rebreathers" That will cover all the basic theory of Rebreather diving, different operational designs etc. - Read the articles in the 'New to Rebreather' section in our library - Read through our archives, as well as those on other boards (like Scubaboard and The Deco Stop). They've been around longer than we have and thus have some older info, including accidents. In our archives you'll find a lot of good info on accidents and incidents as members have luckily been quite open sharing the experiences. - Want more accidents, google "Madmole", he has an Inspiration site. With an accident section, needs to be updated, but quite some info there. Also check his survey, it does put some numbers into perspective. Google "Wrolf's Wreck" and "Cautionary Tales". More accident reoports, hasn't been updated in a long time but worth reading if it's still around. One problem with accidents is that reports usually are not very thorough, info hard to come by. Which frequently leaves with more questions than answers. As for deciding and diving a rebreather, have a look at the dives you do, and the ones you would like to do. No one rebreather does it all very well, so choose the one that fits your needs. If possible do an intro with an instructor, will give you some practicle experience if a rebreather is really something you want to use. By the way, diving is dangerous. __________________ Cheers Stefan "It is still a good day if you are on the green side of the grass! Su amigo Roberto!" Sponsor Lou in Race For Life!
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8th December 2006, 10:20	#3 (permalink)
Mark Chase I go down for ages Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kent Posts: 2,470	Re: Rebreathers are dangerous! So that is why I am here! Hi welcome aboard. Remember that there are problems inherent with diving CCR and problems inherent in diving ECCR Once you have those basics sorted you move on to the big gray area of problems inherent with diving the particular unit you chose to dive with. Ask lots of Questions and PM people for more detail because many don't want to put stuff on the boards but will tell you in private. Always respect that privacy and you will get even more info. ATB Mark Chase __________________ Is it supposed to make that noise ? I took my unit to the dive shop and demanded they bolt on every thing that would fit. Join my elite diving teem and get a Tshirt "Doing It Chasey"Hammerhead Eccr Advanced Diving System
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8th December 2006, 15:17	#4 (permalink)
*ScubaDadMiami* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Optima Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Florida, USA Posts: 1,939	Re: Rebreathers are dangerous! So that is why I am here! Funny, I view the rebreather as a safety and life support, not as an endangerment. Sure, when it goes wrong, it can go very wrong. However, in most cases, CCR presents more options when this happens including going back to open circuit. I was not attracted to the "danger" of CCR; I went to it for its safety aspects. __________________ Howard Packer IANTD CCR Instructor Miami Beach, Florida CCRDiveTraining.com
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8th December 2006, 17:37	#5 (permalink)
Genesis Bubbless Box of Death Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Home Build Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Sunny Florida Posts: 1,394	Re: Rebreathers are dangerous! So that is why I am here! Rebreathers severely punish lack of attention. If that's not one of your problems, then they can actually add safety. An example I've posted here before: You're teleported into the cargo hold of a ship underwater at 200' wearing only a mask. You have no idea where you are, or where "out" is. You have in front of you a twinset and a rebreather. You may choose to strap either on and attempt to use it to exit and get back to the surface. I know what I pick. Part of the "gotcha" in most OC accidents is the element of TIME. You come out of a shipwreck and, having foolishly left your deco gas outside, you find its not there (in truth you came out a different hole than you went in most likely!) The vis sucks bananas. Now what? Or, you're in a cave way back in wherever, and your scooter sticks on. In the attempt to get it under control you manage to plow the bottom and zero the visability. You now have a non-working scooter, you're 4,000' back from the entrance, you have a decent idea of where the line is (but you're not on it) and you can't see. On OC this is a life-threatening emergency. On a CCR, most of the time, its bad - but not nearly AS bad. There are no trade-offs without costs; all "good" comes with a "bad." __________________ "A venturesome minority will always be eager to get off on their own, and no obstacles should be placed in their path; let them take risks for Godsake, let them get lost, sunburnt, stranded, drowned, eaten by bears, buried alive under avalanches - that is the right and privilege of any free American." http://www.denninger.net http://www.diversunion.org/liability.htm - Fix the Diving Cert racket
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8th December 2006, 20:33	#6 (permalink)
Gill Envy Shearwater Copis Diver Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Evolution Other CCR Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: seattle Posts: 1,255	Re: Rebreathers are dangerous! So that is why I am here! back when i was first learning oc i remember one of my mentors telling me how the greatest danger zone for oc divers was the first 30 dives when panic can cause poor judgement and then again after about 70 dives when confidence can turn to complacency. I remembered this again after my 75th dive, didn't pay attention to tidal predictions, was at 115 fsw in a strong down welling, clawing at the sand and praying for my life. This began the next phase of taking it all much more seriously. from what i can tell so far, with rebreathers, that second curve probably comes on later and then never really goes away. Repetition insures good habits, but eventually repetition can lead to going through the motions which can eventually lead to thinking you've gone through the motions when you actually haven't. The folks who bite it in this sport are often the most experienced, and even on relitively routine dives. My suspicion is that over time the key to safe rebreather diving is keeping habits from becoming too second nature and always being prepared to deal if things go south. __________________ Gill Envy ...Because I wasn't born with gills! ><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>
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9th December 2006, 00:30	#7 (permalink)
Armson New Member Current Rebreather/s: Optima Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Manassas, VA Posts: 11	Re: Rebreathers are dangerous! So that is why I am here! Guys Thanks for answering my questions and being understanding. I am going to do some reading and I will fire off another round of questions when I get the chance. ON a slightly different note. I plan to do my training through VAscuba from the short time I have spent talking to them they seem like top notch guys. Any body have recomendations about places to get rebreather certified? -B
(Offline)

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