New to rebreathers

tamorgen

Hi all,
A friend recommend that I check this board out. I've been diving for about 9 years now, and many of my dive buddies have been getting into rebreathers lately. That said, I'm looking into it because I'm tired of being the first person back on the boat, unless I want to lug around my twin 112's.

Anyway, I'd like to know what I should be considering, and what I should expect. I'd like to start out with a semi CCR, just for the fact that they are cheaper to get into. I'd love to start out on an Inspiration, but I don't have $10k lying around for the gear and training. So basically if I go with what my bubbleless buddies have, I'd be going with a Dolphin. What should I be looking for in a used unit? What should I expect to pay in the US? Anything I should be particullarly careful of? What's going to be the best cert for this rebreather?

I'm also looking at getting a VR3 for my open circuit diving. How well does it work with the Draeger, or does it at all? I know there is a Draeger interface option, but is it worth it?

Thanks for any advice you can give me.

rdmmdr

welcome to the list

many fine units can be had used for a lot less,watch the list for prices.

home builts can be had for even less, "welcome to the dark side luke"

build or buy you will enjoy

rick

sven

Hi,

Welcome to the board!
Great wisdom, information, experience and whole lot of opinions can be had here. Check out the library and the gallery as well, and keep us up to date with your Rebreather journey through a blog!

Re: 10k for an Inspiration - I bought a Classic 2nd hand approx 12 months ago. It was in pristine condition, had done approx 100h, cost was approx US$5,500. In the past 12 months I have done almost 100h/80 dives on the unit. Watch on the board for units on sale.

Having never dived a Dolphin, I would still recommend against going down the SCR route. Invest the money into a mCCR (like KISS) or an eCCR (like Inspiration). These are much more capable platforms and well worth the extra dollars compared to SCR, unless you want to either stay in the range to say 45m, OR, you want to tinker and convert a Dolphin to CCR.

Any way you go, there is great advice and info on the list.

My 0.02 worth

__________________
Regards,
Sven

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"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect." Mark Twain[/SIZE]

caveseeker7

Welcome to Rebreather World.

While building your Rebreather can save you some bucks and (usually) means you'll know your unit inside out, I would only think of it as a good idea if you really have the skills and equipment to build a rebreather.

Sven on the other hand makes a good point, a used CCR in good shape can be found for considerably less money than a new one. Even a new Sport Kiss costs roughly half of a new Vision Inspo.

I was in a similar spot, couldn't afford a CCR for quite a while. Considered a semi-closed rig, but rather waited and saved a bit longer and got a Sport Kiss instead. It was certainly worth it. If you get a chance to try both with an instructor you'll probably agree.

__________________
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Stefan



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fubari

Your buddies are diving Dolphins? Interesting. I would have guessed that with doubles, you were doing extended range diving - yes? No? What kind of diving profiles do you want to do?

If you are not going to be doing extended range stuff, a Dolphin is fine. A sport-kiss would be a better choice (for me), because then you are on closed-circuit (vs. semi-closed).

There is an advantage in having your dive team all on the same units (spare parts on dive trips, problem solving, shared learning). For you, that may just outweigh everything else I'm going to talk about in this post.

Cost is one tradeoff between semi-closed vs. fully-closed. Hmm... just how much are new Dolphins these days? Used Dolphins?

Here are some other tradeoffs...

• Semi-closed will give you higher nitrogen loading because you're not on optimal PO2 during the entire profile.
• Semi-closed units have a fairly shallow depth limit (below wich the constant-gas-addition doesn't put out enough gas : 130ft for dolphin according to this: http://www.rebreatherworld.com/semi-closed-rebreathers/2429-extending-scr-dolphin-depth-limits.htm).
• Fully-closed units have more demanding maintenance and operating procedures (though I'm happyto pay this "cost" because I want the extended range).
• How much of your semi-closed training would transfer over to a fully-closed unit? Can any of you instructors comment on this? It would be a shame to have to pay for the same training twice.
• Electronic-control vs. total manual-control is another can of worms I don't really want to open here, but a semi-closed unit does have much greater simplicity (which is a big plus).

I'm sure there are other tradeoffs to consider - anyone?

If money is Really tight, I would wait an extra season and go CCR (manual controlled, or electronic). I've been telling people who ask about ccr's on dive-boats and local quaries that CCR's really are not worth it unless you know for sure that you're going down the tech-diving road. Then the logistics and maintenance start to pay dividends (for example, there is no way I could afford to dive heliox on open-circuit doubles, and a big cost-justification for me was not having to buy a truck or an SUV to haul my kit around).


I would agree with Sven about a 2nd hand insp-classic as a good way to start. There are design issues with the insp-classic, but they're well understood at this point. I'm expect to get 3 or 4 years total out of my inspiration and then upgrade. Although... once you switch in a different chasis, a different electronics package, a different harness (backplate instead of AP's velcro-happy contraption), and a decent bailout-option (vs. the auto-air) then the Inspiration is actually a pretty nice rebreather.


My learning curve with the insp-classic included:

• Non-DOT (made-in-UK) cylinders that my local dive shop wouldn't fill. I ended up investing in gas-transfer gear sooner than I'd expected. I'm saving up for an oxygen booster now since my shop is charging 50cents/cft for O2.
• Buoyancy kicked my ass - I thought I had made a huge mistake for the first two weeks of diving it (this does get better, but many of your open-circuit instincts will Not help you with ccr - be patient with this one).
• The insp-classic stock chasis only takes 3-liter cylinders, so you'll probalby want to budget for an extra pair of those at some point.

As for consumables, to get started you're looking at
3 oxygen sensors (though should keep a spare): 3 x $70 -> $210
keg of sorb: $100
MOD-I training: about $1000 (class + books)
used insp-classic: $5000.
total: about $6500.

How does this compare with your estimates for dolphin startup costs?

I'm going to speculate about insp-classics here... I'm sure others will have some insight into the 2nd-hand market for different units.
The thing I would look for most is safety. For an insp-classic, make sure you get one with back-lit handsets (and if it doesn't powerup with fresh batteries, walk away). See the bit below about buying a refurbished unit, too. That takes a lot of the guesswork out of "Is this a good deal?" and replaces it with knowing that "This is a fair deal."

For an insp-classic I would say $4000 - $5000; I wouldn't go over $5000 unless they have lots of extra goodies, like: ADV (automatic diluent-valve so you don't have to manually top off your breathing loop on the way down, makes loop-flushes easier to do, too), a BOV(bailout-valve, which makes it easy to go off-loop to open-circuit).

From a maintenance perspective, I'd try to buy a refurbished unit through the outfit you'll be training through. The cost difference is small, and you'll have someone to help you with maintenance issues. I paid $4,000 for my insp-classic, but by the time I had everything serviced (regs & tanks) I didn't save that much money at all. There are divers here that can service a regulator in their sleep - but that isn't me; gear maintenance is a long steady learning curve for me. Frankly I would delegate my maintenance to a dive shop if I had a ccr-enabled shop in the Chicago area, but they're not that popular here (yet). And in the long run, the knowledge will be good for me, so that keeps me studying too.

For semi-closed, I don't know.
With CCR, your first cert will be MOD-I (module one, which is pretty much "open-water rebreather"). IANTD and TDI both do that, I don't know if there are other agencies. I think the instructor is way more important than which agency you go through. Shop around and find someone with a well deserved reputation - the quality of your training is a more important investment than the quality of your rebreather (e.g. which is safer, a poorly trained diver on a high-end unit, or a well trained diver on a middling unit?).

Sort of... imho VR3's are expensive for what they give you. The drager-vr3 link itself costs $200+ (used). Is it worth it? What are your buddies doing? Some people really like VR3s, but there are several options (e.g. http://www.rebreatherworld.com/rebre...post68289.html ). At the moment, I like the hydrospace-explorer more - there isn't an obvious "this one is twice as good" computer on the market though. Whatever computer you get, if you're serious about rebreathers make sure the computer has an external oxygen-sensor plug - that is an optional, and you won't get it unless you ask for it.

Well - I have opinions galore Don't take anything I say as gospel. Do lots of reading here. Spend some time on reading about Dophins here: http://www.rebreatherworld.com/semi-closed-rebreathers/ to see what kinds of things people praise & bitch about. Ditto for inspiration (http://www.rebreatherworld.com/inspiration-evolution-rebreathers/). Or whatever you end up considering.

In any event, Good Luck. Whatever way you go, I'm sure it will be lots of fun!

John G.

bambang

Hi Tamorgen,

For USD 6500, I got Evolution CCR, Vision electronics with Trimix/Deco software upgrade,temptstick,HUD and everything else except the ADV (Didn't want them) The price might seem high at first, but with that package you do not need to buy anything else (Dive comp etc...)

The AP diving also is very good in their customer support. I think if you are in the market for CCR, you should at least consider Evolution as one of the option. I just bought my unit five months ago, and I have been very pleased with unit compare to my old CCR (Manual one) If you buy SCR/VR3 combo you may spent more at the end.


Regards,


Bambang