Megaladon Versus Optima Fx

zzzzzzzz · 19th January 2008, 11:38

Quote: (Originally Posted by sensor330)

Either everybody is super sensitive to the differences to the WOB or I must have some super human lungs. I've got to say in my career as both a professional diver and tech diver I've never noticed a difference in the WOB in Rebreather that use over the shoulder C/L. I've dove 4 completely different units that use over the shoulder C/L and 3 that have rear C/L. I've only noted a significant difference from front to back. As well I hear reports of better WOB when using trimix or heilox and again I've never noticed a difference other than I'm not narked at 300'. I think the WOB gimmick is really just a sales and marketing strategy to sell more of their Rebreather.

Scott

Scott,

You are super-human! Imagine that the rest of us want to be like you!

You raise some very important issues when it comes to any underwater breathing apparatus: percieved WOB vs real or measured. Even more significant is sensitivity to CO2 which can vary daily and has major impact on perception of breathing effort.

Want to reduce your "perceived" WOB, just go snorkelling for one day making sure to do some decent breathholding. This will increase your CO2 tolerance to the point where you may find breathing on the rebreather is not as bad as before. A less healthy alternative to increase CO2 tolerance would be to start smoking.

Things are even more complex when dealing with rebreathers because of the effect of position.

Some buddies will make a similar statement as you wrt WOB. Then you start looking at body position underwater and see them maintain the sweet spot with an elevated chest. Then you hear statements that in-water trim is perfect.

Since it matters very little in fact, unless you're at 1000' where CO2 buildup is an issue, WOB will only translate to what is perceived. Uniformity in this regard is hopeless. Hence the need for some unbiased mechanical means of quantifying this parameter.

So dude, it really doesn't matter if you have super-lungs: if you go to 1000' you will find that gas physics trump your super lungs. Other than that, you can claim anything you want.

Everyone should have super-lungs!

jiseson · 19th January 2008, 12:30

in my transition from OC to my Optima i was warned about wob....the Optima has proven to make that just plain silly-i don't even know i am breathing on it. I am in love!

sensor330 · 19th January 2008, 14:13

Quote: (Originally Posted by zzzzzzzz)

Scott,

You are super-human! Imagine that the rest of us want to be like you!

You raise some very important issues when it comes to any underwater breathing apparatus: percieved WOB vs real or measured. Even more significant is sensitivity to CO2 which can vary daily and has major impact on perception of breathing effort.

Want to reduce your "perceived" WOB, just go snorkelling for one day making sure to do some decent breathholding. This will increase your CO2 tolerance to the point where you may find breathing on the rebreather is not as bad as before. A less healthy alternative to increase CO2 tolerance would be to start smoking.

Things are even more complex when dealing with rebreathers because of the effect of position.

Some buddies will make a similar statement as you wrt WOB. Then you start looking at body position underwater and see them maintain the sweet spot with an elevated chest. Then you hear statements that in-water trim is perfect.

Since it matters very little in fact, unless you're at 1000' where CO2 buildup is an issue, WOB will only translate to what is perceived. Uniformity in this regard is hopeless. Hence the need for some unbiased mechanical means of quantifying this parameter.

So dude, it really doesn't matter if you have super-lungs: if you go to 1000' you will find that gas physics trump your super lungs. Other than that, you can claim anything you want.

Everyone should have super-lungs!

All right man, no need to get pissy! I wasn't trying to say that I'm better than anybody else. My point is WOB is not a issue to really consider with any of the over the shoulder now a days. I was only stating my opinion to which I'm entitled to do.

Scott Ensor

**SeaBass** · 19th January 2008, 14:58

Quote: (Originally Posted by sensor330)

All right man, no need to get pissy! I wasn't trying to say that I'm better than anybody else. My point is WOB is not a issue to really consider with any of the over the shoulder now a days. I was only stating my opinion to which I'm entitled to do.

No offense taken here.

As you mentioned the whole WOB thing can be over scrutinized however it is nice to get feedback from guys who have first hand experience with them.

I also think discussion on this forum has not only helped Rebreather divers to choose thier units but it has also helped manufacturers make better ones.

Thom

CCR-Wrecker · 19th January 2008, 18:45

Quote: (Originally Posted by sensor330)

Either everybody is super sensitive to the differences to the WOB or I must have some super human lungs. I've got to say in my career as both a professional diver and tech diver I've never noticed a difference in the WOB in Rebreather that use over the shoulder C/L. I've dove 4 completely different units that use over the shoulder C/L and 3 that have rear C/L. I've only noted a significant difference from front to back. As well I hear reports of better WOB when using trimix or heilox and again I've never noticed a difference other than I'm not narked at 300'. I think the WOB gimmick is really just a sales and marketing strategy to sell more of their Rebreather.

Scott

Scott,
I'm with you bro. I don't have " super lungs" however, I'm just a gorilla. I have dived YBOD, KISS and a Meg. I find no real difference in WOB. I also go from Poseidons to Mares to Apex on OC and don't really see to much of a difference. I don't look for one either. My philosophy is simple (like me

)
I'm breathing = good, not breathing= bad.

Where's my banana?

Andy

zzzzzzzz · 20th January 2008, 00:48

Quote: (Originally Posted by sensor330)

All right man, no need to get pissy! I wasn't trying to say that I'm better than anybody else. My point is WOB is not a issue to really consider with any of the over the shoulder now a days. I was only stating my opinion to which I'm entitled to do.

Scott Ensor

Hi Scott,

Thank you for pointing out my bad behavior. Flesh is weak. Always nice to get down to basics, accept my apology for being so forward. Anything but good taste. ;-)

There is a lot of consensus that diving aptitude often makes a lot this stuff purely academic. This is to say that there is something to in water skills and it is never to be neglected.

The machines are much better nowdays.

Please accept the very best!

Barfab · 20th January 2008, 01:32

Quote: (Originally Posted by Finni)

I am new to rebreather diving and I would really like some guidence to which reabreather is good for me.

I have the option to learn on the Megaladon and the Optima.

I really would like to hear all the pros and cons with these two units.

Thank you very much

I tink that put a Hammerhead electronic and ExtendAir scrubber into a backpack is not enough to become rebreather constructor.
Megalodon, instead, comes from decades of rebreathers experiece.
Anyway a glance at the rigs should be enough to do the right choice

Fabio

diverreb · 20th January 2008, 02:39

Quote: (Originally Posted by Barfab)

I tink that put a Hammerhead electronic and ExtendAir scrubber into a backpack is not enough to become rebreather constructor.
Megalodon, instead, comes from decades of rebreathers experiece.
Anyway a glance at the rigs should be enough to do the right choice

Fabio

I can't let that one go....

I guess the fact that in a very short time over 300 O2ptima's have been sold...... and they are still selling strong.... means they must be a poor rig.... Aside from a few issues, which every rebreather has, everyone I know who owns and dives an O2ptima is very happy with the performance & durability of the unit.

A lot more goes into the decision of buying a unit than taking a glance at the units. Like what type of diving the purchaser of the unit is going to do... The company and depth of talent that backs up a unit, total costs involved, etc.

Look, I wouldn't say an O2ptima is a first choice if you live in a part of the World where the EAC's aren't readily available or if you travel to those types of places frequently. I also would think twice if I were doing true expedition diving where you were totally remote for a long period of time and like to drop your unit off the bench on to the deck of a boat. However the majority of rebreather divers don't do this type of diving and are pretty careful with their rigs.

You want to tell me how good the electronics are that come with the Meg? Is that what decades of experience yields.... We'll I'll take the Hammerhead set up from my Cartridge Scrubber & backpack constructor any day.

Cheers,

Richie

mverick · 20th January 2008, 03:11

Quote: (Originally Posted by diverreb)

I can't let that one go....

Look, I wouldn't say an O2ptima is a first choice if you live in a part of the World where the EAC's aren't readily available or if you travel to those types of places frequently. I also would think twice if I were doing true expedition diving where you were totally remote for a long period of time and like to drop your unit off the bench on to the deck of a boat. However the majority of rebreather divers don't do this type of diving and are pretty careful with their rigs.

You want to tell me how good the electronics are that come with the Meg? Is that what decades of experience yields.... We'll I'll take the Hammerhead set up from my Cartridge Scrubber & backpack constructor any day.

Cheers,

Richie

OK,
Meg has it's problems but I'll answer your questions cause those aren't it's problems.

You can get a Shearwater, HH, Apecs on the Meg. So, yes you can get any electronics your heart desires. Comes with the Apecs but you can get a stripped version and have any of the others installed.

I don't like the Hammer head because I don't like the short run time of the batteries. I want to put in one set a year and with the Meg with apecs or Shearwater I can do that. With Hammerhead you have to change them out weekly or daily. I just don't like that. Some don't have a problem with it. I do. If I would get stuck and have to do 8 hours on the unit I know the normal batts would last. The Hammerhead would have to have the High dollar batteries to last. If I used cheapies I'd be stuck. Replacement batteries for the Meg are Cheap too. As long as you can make them. And, it ain't difficult.

The EAC's. Well, Meg has those too. That's where the Cave Meg can came from. You want them. There is that option.

With the Meg, you get lots of Options.

That's why I like the Meg. And, it's built like a Tank. Although, could be done better.

Bad thing about the Meg. It seems they take forever to upgrade there unit. And, I hate that. I asked for some info about other parts for my Meg. They said they'd get back to me about price for the parts. They never did. I can't stand that. I do realise if I call I do get someone. But, to just misplace or blow me off. I'm not happy with that.

If you go Optima and you decide later to travel a lot. You HAVE to get the EAC's. You don't with a Meg. You can use EAC's or Granular.

I LIKE OPTIONS.

Barfab · 20th January 2008, 03:26

Quote: (Originally Posted by Barfab)

I tink that put a Hammerhead electronic and ExtendAir scrubber into a backpack is not enough to become rebreather constructor.
Megalodon, instead, comes from decades of rebreathers experiece.
Anyway a glance at the rigs should be enough to do the right choice

Fabio

Apart the Hammerhead's battery problems, we can see that the new Hammerhead, the one that looks like a copy of Meg, of course adds new interesting features, and is well build and designed. I can't understand why to build Optima, I don't see new features noting else apart the need that everyone has now to have a rebreather in his list to sell.

19th January 2008, 11:38	#31 (permalink)
zzzzzzzz Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Home Build Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Earth Posts: 100	Re: Megaladon Versus Optima Fx Quote: (Originally Posted by sensor330) Either everybody is super sensitive to the differences to the WOB or I must have some super human lungs. I've got to say in my career as both a professional diver and tech diver I've never noticed a difference in the WOB in Rebreather that use over the shoulder C/L. I've dove 4 completely different units that use over the shoulder C/L and 3 that have rear C/L. I've only noted a significant difference from front to back. As well I hear reports of better WOB when using trimix or heilox and again I've never noticed a difference other than I'm not narked at 300'. I think the WOB gimmick is really just a sales and marketing strategy to sell more of their Rebreather. Scott Scott, You are super-human! Imagine that the rest of us want to be like you! You raise some very important issues when it comes to any underwater breathing apparatus: percieved WOB vs real or measured. Even more significant is sensitivity to CO2 which can vary daily and has major impact on perception of breathing effort. Want to reduce your "perceived" WOB, just go snorkelling for one day making sure to do some decent breathholding. This will increase your CO2 tolerance to the point where you may find breathing on the rebreather is not as bad as before. A less healthy alternative to increase CO2 tolerance would be to start smoking. Things are even more complex when dealing with rebreathers because of the effect of position. Some buddies will make a similar statement as you wrt WOB. Then you start looking at body position underwater and see them maintain the sweet spot with an elevated chest. Then you hear statements that in-water trim is perfect. Since it matters very little in fact, unless you're at 1000' where CO2 buildup is an issue, WOB will only translate to what is perceived. Uniformity in this regard is hopeless. Hence the need for some unbiased mechanical means of quantifying this parameter. So dude, it really doesn't matter if you have super-lungs: if you go to 1000' you will find that gas physics trump your super lungs. Other than that, you can claim anything you want. Everyone should have super-lungs! __________________ z
(Offline)

19th January 2008, 12:30	#32 (permalink)
jiseson DSIX/O2PTIMA Current Rebreather/s: Optima Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: long island,ny Posts: 562	Re: Megaladon Versus Optima Fx in my transition from OC to my Optima i was warned about wob....the Optima has proven to make that just plain silly-i don't even know i am breathing on it. I am in love! __________________ *Jonathan D Iseson*
(Online)

19th January 2008, 14:13	#33 (permalink)
sensor330 Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Inspiration Classic Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Victoria, British Columbia, Canada Posts: 585	Re: Megaladon Versus Optima Fx Quote: (Originally Posted by zzzzzzzz) Scott, You are super-human! Imagine that the rest of us want to be like you! You raise some very important issues when it comes to any underwater breathing apparatus: percieved WOB vs real or measured. Even more significant is sensitivity to CO2 which can vary daily and has major impact on perception of breathing effort. Want to reduce your "perceived" WOB, just go snorkelling for one day making sure to do some decent breathholding. This will increase your CO2 tolerance to the point where you may find breathing on the rebreather is not as bad as before. A less healthy alternative to increase CO2 tolerance would be to start smoking. Things are even more complex when dealing with rebreathers because of the effect of position. Some buddies will make a similar statement as you wrt WOB. Then you start looking at body position underwater and see them maintain the sweet spot with an elevated chest. Then you hear statements that in-water trim is perfect. Since it matters very little in fact, unless you're at 1000' where CO2 buildup is an issue, WOB will only translate to what is perceived. Uniformity in this regard is hopeless. Hence the need for some unbiased mechanical means of quantifying this parameter. So dude, it really doesn't matter if you have super-lungs: if you go to 1000' you will find that gas physics trump your super lungs. Other than that, you can claim anything you want. Everyone should have super-lungs! All right man, no need to get pissy! I wasn't trying to say that I'm better than anybody else. My point is WOB is not a issue to really consider with any of the over the shoulder now a days. I was only stating my opinion to which I'm entitled to do. Scott Ensor
(Offline)

19th January 2008, 14:58	#34 (permalink)
SeaBass Thom Susko Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Ray Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Ray Home Build Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: San Clemente, CA Posts: 232	Re: Megaladon Versus Optima Fx Quote: (Originally Posted by sensor330) All right man, no need to get pissy! I wasn't trying to say that I'm better than anybody else. My point is WOB is not a issue to really consider with any of the over the shoulder now a days. I was only stating my opinion to which I'm entitled to do. No offense taken here. As you mentioned the whole WOB thing can be over scrutinized however it is nice to get feedback from guys who have first hand experience with them. I also think discussion on this forum has not only helped Rebreather divers to choose thier units but it has also helped manufacturers make better ones. Thom
(Offline)

19th January 2008, 18:45	#35 (permalink)
CCR-Wrecker Classic KISSer #276 Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: New York Posts: 225	Re: Megaladon Versus Optima Fx Quote: (Originally Posted by sensor330) Either everybody is super sensitive to the differences to the WOB or I must have some super human lungs. I've got to say in my career as both a professional diver and tech diver I've never noticed a difference in the WOB in Rebreather that use over the shoulder C/L. I've dove 4 completely different units that use over the shoulder C/L and 3 that have rear C/L. I've only noted a significant difference from front to back. As well I hear reports of better WOB when using trimix or heilox and again I've never noticed a difference other than I'm not narked at 300'. I think the WOB gimmick is really just a sales and marketing strategy to sell more of their Rebreather. Scott Scott, I'm with you bro. I don't have " super lungs" however, I'm just a gorilla. I have dived YBOD, KISS and a Meg. I find no real difference in WOB. I also go from Poseidons to Mares to Apex on OC and don't really see to much of a difference. I don't look for one either. My philosophy is simple (like me ) I'm breathing = good, not breathing= bad. Where's my banana? Andy __________________ "I know what you'll find, it's in your mind, it's what you want to see..." Ozzy
(Offline)

20th January 2008, 00:48	#36 (permalink)
zzzzzzzz Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Home Build Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Earth Posts: 100	Re: Megaladon Versus Optima Fx Quote: (Originally Posted by sensor330) All right man, no need to get pissy! I wasn't trying to say that I'm better than anybody else. My point is WOB is not a issue to really consider with any of the over the shoulder now a days. I was only stating my opinion to which I'm entitled to do. Scott Ensor Hi Scott, Thank you for pointing out my bad behavior. Flesh is weak. Always nice to get down to basics, accept my apology for being so forward. Anything but good taste. ;-) There is a lot of consensus that diving aptitude often makes a lot this stuff purely academic. This is to say that there is something to in water skills and it is never to be neglected. The machines are much better nowdays. Please accept the very best! __________________ z
(Offline)

20th January 2008, 01:32	#37 (permalink)
Barfab New Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Megalodon Ouroboros Ray Azimuth Other SCR Other Rebreather/s: Ray Azimuth Other SCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Italy Posts: 57	Re: Megaladon Versus Optima Fx Quote: (Originally Posted by Finni) I am new to rebreather diving and I would really like some guidence to which reabreather is good for me. I have the option to learn on the Megaladon and the Optima. I really would like to hear all the pros and cons with these two units. Thank you very much I tink that put a Hammerhead electronic and ExtendAir scrubber into a backpack is not enough to become rebreather constructor. Megalodon, instead, comes from decades of rebreathers experiece. Anyway a glance at the rigs should be enough to do the right choice Fabio __________________ World is a....Rebreather!
(Offline)

20th January 2008, 02:39	#38 (permalink)
diverreb DE/MD/NJ Wreck Diver Current Rebreather/s: Optima Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Dover, DE Posts: 599	Re: Megaladon Versus Optima Fx Quote: (Originally Posted by Barfab) I tink that put a Hammerhead electronic and ExtendAir scrubber into a backpack is not enough to become rebreather constructor. Megalodon, instead, comes from decades of rebreathers experiece. Anyway a glance at the rigs should be enough to do the right choice Fabio I can't let that one go.... I guess the fact that in a very short time over 300 O2ptima's have been sold...... and they are still selling strong.... means they must be a poor rig.... Aside from a few issues, which every rebreather has, everyone I know who owns and dives an O2ptima is very happy with the performance & durability of the unit. A lot more goes into the decision of buying a unit than taking a glance at the units. Like what type of diving the purchaser of the unit is going to do... The company and depth of talent that backs up a unit, total costs involved, etc. Look, I wouldn't say an O2ptima is a first choice if you live in a part of the World where the EAC's aren't readily available or if you travel to those types of places frequently. I also would think twice if I were doing true expedition diving where you were totally remote for a long period of time and like to drop your unit off the bench on to the deck of a boat. However the majority of rebreather divers don't do this type of diving and are pretty careful with their rigs. You want to tell me how good the electronics are that come with the Meg? Is that what decades of experience yields.... We'll I'll take the Hammerhead set up from my Cartridge Scrubber & backpack constructor any day. Cheers, Richie
(Offline)

20th January 2008, 03:11	#39 (permalink)
mverick ScubaPimp Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 545	Re: Megaladon Versus Optima Fx Quote: (Originally Posted by diverreb) I can't let that one go.... Look, I wouldn't say an O2ptima is a first choice if you live in a part of the World where the EAC's aren't readily available or if you travel to those types of places frequently. I also would think twice if I were doing true expedition diving where you were totally remote for a long period of time and like to drop your unit off the bench on to the deck of a boat. However the majority of rebreather divers don't do this type of diving and are pretty careful with their rigs. You want to tell me how good the electronics are that come with the Meg? Is that what decades of experience yields.... We'll I'll take the Hammerhead set up from my Cartridge Scrubber & backpack constructor any day. Cheers, Richie OK, Meg has it's problems but I'll answer your questions cause those aren't it's problems. You can get a Shearwater, HH, Apecs on the Meg. So, yes you can get any electronics your heart desires. Comes with the Apecs but you can get a stripped version and have any of the others installed. I don't like the Hammer head because I don't like the short run time of the batteries. I want to put in one set a year and with the Meg with apecs or Shearwater I can do that. With Hammerhead you have to change them out weekly or daily. I just don't like that. Some don't have a problem with it. I do. If I would get stuck and have to do 8 hours on the unit I know the normal batts would last. The Hammerhead would have to have the High dollar batteries to last. If I used cheapies I'd be stuck. Replacement batteries for the Meg are Cheap too. As long as you can make them. And, it ain't difficult. The EAC's. Well, Meg has those too. That's where the Cave Meg can came from. You want them. There is that option. With the Meg, you get lots of Options. That's why I like the Meg. And, it's built like a Tank. Although, could be done better. Bad thing about the Meg. It seems they take forever to upgrade there unit. And, I hate that. I asked for some info about other parts for my Meg. They said they'd get back to me about price for the parts. They never did. I can't stand that. I do realise if I call I do get someone. But, to just misplace or blow me off. I'm not happy with that. If you go Optima and you decide later to travel a lot. You HAVE to get the EAC's. You don't with a Meg. You can use EAC's or Granular. I LIKE OPTIONS.
(Offline)

20th January 2008, 03:26	#40 (permalink)
Barfab New Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Megalodon Ouroboros Ray Azimuth Other SCR Other Rebreather/s: Ray Azimuth Other SCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Italy Posts: 57	Re: Megaladon Versus Optima Fx Quote: (Originally Posted by Barfab) I tink that put a Hammerhead electronic and ExtendAir scrubber into a backpack is not enough to become rebreather constructor. Megalodon, instead, comes from decades of rebreathers experiece. Anyway a glance at the rigs should be enough to do the right choice Fabio Apart the Hammerhead's battery problems, we can see that the new Hammerhead, the one that looks like a copy of Meg, of course adds new interesting features, and is well build and designed. I can't understand why to build Optima, I don't see new features noting else apart the need that everyone has now to have a rebreather in his list to sell. __________________ World is a....Rebreather!
(Offline)

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