hammer head (juergensen marine)

caveseeker7

Kevin signed up, Joe, he can post his response.

__________________
Cheers
Stefan



"Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority,
and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media,
which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.!"

Andy

i must say kevin has been very helpful and parts arrived in no time

Andy

Philippe GERIN

Ah! Here we go. I knew there was a chance for this to turn out that way: Kevin says this, you say that and I trust him because I know him and not you.... Well, well. I don't see what would be my interest to make a nice tale of it. The facts, just the facts.
As these very details are now public, let's go to the bottom of it even if I think people will be bored with it. Anyway, here it is:

1) HUD credit = discounted HH.Written like you did, it makes it additional.
It's one and the same. Because the HH has the DIVA and I had just ordered the HUD a week earlier, I first asked Kevin if I could send him back the HUD and get the HH instead and pay the full price for the HH. He said no. Then I asked if he could do something price wise on the HH and he gives me that discount. Then I said: well I send you the HUD back as I will have no use for it, he says: no, keep it. So I kept it and happened to sell it afterward.
2) Some machined swagelok connectors = During a conversation about these swagelok connectors, Kevin says he's too busy to take care of this and that he has turn around problems with his machine shop. I asked him if that would help him if I took care of having them machined. He says yes. So I have them machined. Then he receives them and says no. Then he's mad at me. Then he tells me nothing but ships HH units with these very swagelok connectors and I happen to know it so I'm mad. Then one day, out of the blue, a few months later, I receive a check from him. I called him and left a message to say thank you, I appreciate it... End of the story.

So you telling me that now that it's posted here, it will take just a few hours? Good! because when you keep it private it takes about 11 months. If only he picked up the phone and cared to explain.

Just what I said. Nice of you but I had prefered to get it from him in the first place.

Sure. Sorry I wasn't clear in my earlier post. I'm talking about versions prior to 4.5 with conservatism 1 to 11. He sent me one of this at first for testing. He expressively said it was a LOANER for testing ONLY and that he would send me another/newer version with "true gradient factors" (version 4.5 a up, as you stated page 18 of your excellent instruction manual, rev 3.1) which I never received. Then I ask him many times for 9 months. He never responds. Then I get mad and send the whole lot back.

More than a grand is not enough to be considered paying? How much is it then? Then when someone like Kevin tells me that he delivers something for that price, I tend to trust him. Then he doesn't and does not even explain. Well, have I been naive to trust him?

Again, it is not my goal to create a fuss here. I just said I was not happy with the guy and explained why because somebody asked. I'm just presenting the facts, no story here.
For a living, I too sell stuff to people. When a customer calls me a few times and ask to talk about a situation. I usually return his call ready for dialogue. I don't just say: "screw it! I'm too busy". Well even though busy, 11 months is a long time and one can find a few minutes during that period of time.

Best
Philippe

jradomski

I wasn't trying to take sides just point out a few things(and maybe help push the issue along).. The one with the 11 settings IS a GF program except the GFs (I have the actual #s somewhere) other than the first 3 or 4 settings, all the others are too conservative.. the first unit with better values and custom gradients also had a bug in it (extremly long decos and runtimes only, sometimes got screwy numbers after the deco was clear)
I got a rough outline of the events (his side) , I didn;t ask for all the specifics, just that there are 2 sides to every story and usually the truth lies somewhere in between the two intrepretations... I know from personal experience Kevin isn;t always clear and that definately leaves things for interpretation.. Unless you get stuff in emails (or get him to write up an order (or better yet confirm it my email yourself) don't count on everything said in a conversation. He is getting pulled from all ends and he does forget things..

As to the discount all the people getting the KISS hammerhead early were getting a price better than what he was going to sell them for (then you got the HUD credit, which you kept).. Unless you were getting the HH around christmas, the best electronics were the rev a units.. I AM SURPRISED, (but I Beleive it) it didn;t have the correct software in it because those units DO have the Proper software for it..

I do believe Kevin gave you a unit and said it was a loaner (he has given out many in the past), but he also said you did a bunch of mods that he had to rebuild (or something to that effect) so there was definately some misunderstanding on the effect those mods had on the units status... I know personally if I loaned a person something (even if I promised a new something) and the person modified it, they bought it, end of story unless is was specifically stated it was for experimentation and I didnt care what was done with it.... I don't know what is attitude was and hopefully things get resolved in some amicable outcome for both..

I found out a long time ago with Kevin, if there is something that requires compromise (in his opinion) and the otehr person makes an effort to compromise he generally does, but if the person takes a hard stance then he'll never move..

Oh and thanks for the complement on the manual...

__________________
Joe Radomski
CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer
ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10

All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated.

Philippe GERIN

Fair enough, just thought you were and that you were part of that company because you were reporting publicly some details of a private deal between a company and one of its client.
Thanks for pointing out a few things and maybe help pushing the issue. I really hopes it does. I'm not subborn. I just want to stick to the facts. And just a reminder, I've tried to solve the issue privately for months using all possible means of communcation.

Agreed. What I said earlier. And of course you know it in depth as you helped develop it and did an excellent job at it.
Well, I'm giving the specifics, in depth. Again, the facts, just the facts.
Agreed. But again, I have no interest to travesty the facts. I'm not in the industry, I don't sell anything. I just speak up my mind. Again, 11 months before I get mad. That's showing patience and understanding, I think. Intrepretations: yes, could very well be. We're all human beings after all. Besides, we've got different native language with different cultural background and I make the effort to speak his language.
Now, I understand. If he's acting like this even with you. I couldn't do better. It's just that I don't act like this, therefore naively I don't expect others to do so.
Well, it didn't.
Well, I think here is where the source of the misunderstanding lies. Or is it mis-intrepretation?
When we talked about me testing the unit, it was expressively mentionned that I was to test the hardware related to adapting the HH on the Kiss. The reason being that Kevin didn't have one Kiss Rebreather at hand. In plain english, my role was to test if all pre-defined components were at the right place, the right length...: "Kidney", cables/wires and O2 feeds. Results: 1) wires: too long, 2) cable gland: too exposed, 3) O2 feed: could be easily improved (hence the swagelok connectors).
1) On the unit I had in my hands (a prototype meant to be modified. Again, this is what I understood), the solenoid wire/cable gland going into the kidney was an issue as it was at the back of the Kiss head (like the O2 inlet on the early Kiss's) therefore exposed. To modify it, I would have had to pull the kidney apart... I asked Kevin if I could do it. He said yes. And he added, don't worry just pull on the wires, it is just a question of soldering them back. So I did pull it apart, then had the piece machined and the cable gland position changed and the old one plugged.
Now he's suggesting that I modified things on loan without even asking? That's BS. That was exactly what he asked me to do to start with.
After the test and report on the Kiss list, he was supposed to modify all other units if/when a consensus would be reach with the others. But here I suppose he got fed up with this iteration process or with something else and he considered the HH prototypes were final and ready to ship, or did he consider this from the start therefore he wasn't to change anything anyway? Then why did he ask me to test it?
Then, about the loaner: the controler itself was a loaner and you know that you can swap/plug/unplug (Fisher connectors) one for another. And for course, this controler/loaner I didn't modify.
2) cables too long: he didn't want to do anything about it as he stated it was a personnal preference, which I think was a wrong statement and told him, but I agreed anyway. fair enough, no big deal. One can always stuff them in the case, even if this is not a neat solution, just an approximate remedy.
3) O2 feed: you mentionned the swagelok connectors earlier and I responded on that.
Now you know it was for testing. At least this was "my side of the story" or (mis- ?) interpretation if you will.
Same here.
Same here, exactly. So let's say I'm showing good faith for a compromise.

You're welcome. I always speak up my mind. Now if only I could speak to the man?...

Best
Philippe

jradomski

I understand the mis-understanding.. Over the last few years I have come to think of him as a friend.. we have some really good conversations (he definately likes to hear opinions from others) and I hear alot of the stuff that happens as it is happening (for the most part we keep names out of it - but not always)..
I have a good line of communication with him, and can usually get things pushed in the right direction, the funny thing is that stuff for myslef tends to get pushed back sometimes so that he can take care of other since he knows he doesn;t have to worry about me (unless I tell him I really have to have it by a certain date)..
I know what his cost is going to be for the new wrist units and I know there is no way he can afford to do any upgrades for anyone for free and if he does he is being a REALLY nice guy... In the past when people were charged $900 to upgrade to the latest he was definately doing them a favor, the al units are going to have to be even more costly an upgrade even if he just wants to break even..

__________________
Joe Radomski
CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer
ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10

All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated.

decoweenie

Was this before or after Kevin and I decided on how the KISS-HH should be ?

AFAIK, we started the original e-KISS concept in April-2002. And I dived the prototype SMA-1 in August-2002 to make sure that it would be feasible (able to keep SP with the KISS valve in-line).

Then Kevin started to build the HH for the Inspiration. Thus it was natural to port it to the KISS.

IIRC, I sent the first detailed intructions to Kevin in February-2003 how to do the external hardware for the KISS-HH.

And I received my KISS-HH conversion in December-2003.

So I am just a little surprised to read that you were testing how to mount the KISS-HH to the unit 11 months ago.

Philippe GERIN

Come on Phi. You know it all perfectly into depth. Don't play it like that. And yes, the Kiss-HH was your idea and No, nobody is saying anything else.
You know we're not talking about the SMA. Again, nobody is questionning the fact that the Kiss-HH was YOUR idea.
And I ordred the Kiss-HH in October-2003 as everybody else and you know it of course.
Come on, Phi. I know you're not really surprised. You're not, are you?
Ok, here we go: an extract of a public e-mail (from the Kiss list) wrote by Kevin himself:
Hey guys,
Philippe Gerin is in Minnesota trying out the new Kiss/Hammerhead.
.../...
As I've said before, we can't get into "customizing" these things to
each divers personal preference, so I would once again ask that you
guys sort this out among yourselves and give me some guidance as to
how long this cable ought to be.
.../...
He's going to be diving the unit on Saturday and verify a couple of
other things, like the type of sealant/encapsulant we used on the
Head as well as the overall fit. I've asked him to issue a dive
report publicly to this list, covering the good, bad and ugly so we
can make whatever changes and get this product delivered.
.../...





Best
Philippe

decoweenie

Philippe,

All I wanted to say was that I don't remember that anyone was supposed to test anything else on the KISS-HH since we already had test dives on the unit by that time. So I was indeed surprised.

If you say that you were making sure the cable lengths were optimum, and etc. then it was exactly the point Joe was making about Kevin not expecting to receive a bill for the modifications done by you. At least that was what I have heard from Kevin.

Anyway, this is your personal business with Kevin so I should stay out of it.

I just wish Kevin just post a reply and get this discussion finished once and for all!

caveseeker7

Wise words, Phi, I'd rather stay out of this one, too.

I agree, giving Kevin a chance to speak for himself and present his side of the situation is the main reason this thread is still open. No need to keep beating the same dead horse.

I would like to remind everyone posting to make an effort that the thread doesn't deteriorate. Venting a griefance in public can have its place, as long as it's within TOS. So far that's the case, please keep it that way.

Joe summed it up quite nicely:
I hope Kevin will give his side of the story, so we can, as Phi suggested, lay this discussion to rest.

__________________
Cheers
Stefan



"Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority,
and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media,
which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.!"