APD problems solved?

Dive Sprite · 27th December 2006, 17:30

Hi,
After a long wait, my Inspiration/Vision is due to be delivered to my instructor in 2 weeks (or so). I made the decision to go with the Inspiration after trying both the Meg and the Kiss - and because I believe it suits my diving requirements and own capabilities.

Now, on this forum I can see many repeated failures on the 'classic' and Vision Inspiration. These include cracked handsets, software issues, battery bounce and more. Some of these problems seem to have caused life-threatening situations on more than one occasion. Not all are about user error - but unit related failures (design or manufacturing faults).

Also, it seems to me that these problems are far more reported on the Inspiration than on any other forum on RBW. Meg, Kiss and other owners don't seem to have the volume of 'common' problems (yes - I am aware that the inspiration has sold many more units than any other - and that being fully electronic makes it far more complicated than some other units - but the community seems to be under the impression that the inspiration is still a bit of a turkey?).

With the above in mind, and as a newbie half way through the manual and as yet untrained (so please forgive me if this is a dumb set of questions) - please can you let me have the benefit of your advice on the following:

With the latest version of the Vision/Inspiration - have these common problems all been ironed out, or are there simply new problems being created by the introduction of the vision software / new handset / redesigned head?
What are the primary problems and failure points with the new units that a newbie owner ought to be fully apprised of?
In your experience, is there a maintenance schedule that a new owner should strictly observe to prevent these specific failures?

I am dedicated to my training and unit, this set of questions is just to clarify if the new units suffer a similar or different set of common problems to those that I have seen on this forum and other archives, mainly with the Classic Inspiration.

Many thanks in advance for your input.
Dave.

johanvanlyl · 27th December 2006, 20:08

Hello Dave,

i got my unit last october and yours will be identical (hard & software) as mine.
with the latest software version i got no issues so far although i must confess to have only about 14 hours on the unit by now.
got a weird oxygen cell on the 3rd dive, which was replaced by apdiving's Nicky.

so far my unit behaved flawless.
the vision units seem to have overcome the hardware problems as battery bounce, cracked handsets and so on, there seems only a sofware problem every now and then....

good luck with the training !

johan (belgium)

Quote: (Originally Posted by Dive Sprite)

Hi,
After a long wait, my Inspiration/Vision is due to be delivered to my instructor in 2 weeks (or so). I made the decision to go with the Inspiration after trying both the Meg and the Kiss - and because I believe it suits my diving requirements and own capabilities.

Now, on this forum I can see many repeated failures on the 'classic' and Vision Inspiration. These include cracked handsets, software issues, battery bounce and more. Some of these problems seem to have caused life-threatening situations on more than one occasion. Not all are about user error - but unit related failures (design or manufacturing faults).

Also, it seems to me that these problems are far more reported on the Inspiration than on any other forum on RBW. Meg, Kiss and other owners don't seem to have the volume of 'common' problems (yes - I am aware that the inspiration has sold many more units than any other - and that being fully electronic makes it far more complicated than some other units - but the community seems to be under the impression that the inspiration is still a bit of a turkey?).

With the above in mind, and as a newbie half way through the manual and as yet untrained (so please forgive me if this is a dumb set of questions) - please can you let me have the benefit of your advice on the following:

With the latest version of the Vision/Inspiration - have these common problems all been ironed out, or are there simply new problems being created by the introduction of the vision software / new handset / redesigned head?
What are the primary problems and failure points with the new units that a newbie owner ought to be fully apprised of?
In your experience, is there a maintenance schedule that a new owner should strictly observe to prevent these specific failures?

I am dedicated to my training and unit, this set of questions is just to clarify if the new units suffer a similar or different set of common problems to those that I have seen on this forum and other archives, mainly with the Classic Inspiration.

Many thanks in advance for your input.
Dave.

Doorduijn, Niels · 27th December 2006, 20:10

Cracked handsets is something relating to the handsets of the Inspiration Classic. It should not apply to your Vision.

Rgs,
Niels Doorduijn

**Gill Envy** · 27th December 2006, 20:25

1. an obscure solenoid issue came up early on in my wife's unit...wasn't life threatening since the pre-dive check caught it and we should have caught it by the po2 being low, by no clicking sound and all.
2. had a bogus cns warning on one dive due to a battery swap from b1 to b2 causing some king of glitche...a minor issue, mostly just nerve racking at the time with the buzzer going off incesently.
3. purchased a bad batch of batteries on line which conveniently demonstrated for me that most of the "software bugs" are more likely a voltage regulation issue...the vision seems quite sensative to precipetous drops in voltage. sent the batteries back, found a good source of duracell ultras that were well within their expiration date (the only other brand battery from the fijitsu's that seem to have the required decay characteristics). Keeping our fingers crossed and swapping batteries out in advance enough to avoid letting the charge drop enough that the brain would be forced to hand off to b2... All seems to be good. I have the original software that came with my unit in april of 06 and my wife has the newest version...neither are having any of the timer issues.
4. The ADV seems to be a potential week point. I had a free flow incident which was hard to nail down. This incident could have been life threatening i suppose, by the time i realized what was happening most of my dilluent had drained...but then again, there is that fine line again between user erro vs unit...i should have noticed this problem earlier i suppose. I fixed what i thought was the problem, greased the banjo fitting...seemed to do the trick, only to notice many dives later that the adv was a small leaking into the inhale counter lung. recently had this fixed while peter denhan was in town...seems to have done the trick.

you can see we have had our share of things happen that have shacken our confidence a bit but all and all we really enjoy the vision electronics and to date do not see another unit that would better suit our needs and preferences.

PCDiver · 28th December 2006, 07:49

About the Vision software bugs - There is still a minor problem with the battery management and with non-standard low setpoints. Both should be fixed by the next software release (3.0) that is scheduled to come out in the New Year. I already have an updated version on my system with improved battery management and had no problems with it.

Nicholas von Rosen · 28th December 2006, 08:05

Had my vision in november .

No big issues...

Only had the SI software problem ... - wich gave a god loooong deco on dive 2 off the day

Nick

Dive Sprite · 28th December 2006, 20:15

Hi Guys,
Many thanks Gilll Envy and others for the excellent responses.

It appears that the Vision only continues to suffer with some software issues from time to time - which might be battery voltage related. The ADV seems to be a common area of concern - but is that a maintenance issue in reality? Should the ADV be inspected and serviced regularly - before it starts to leak?

That leads me on to maintenance... How often (if at all) should an inspiration owner fully strip down their entire unit and clean, inspect, lubricate or renew all the parts and orings etc?

Alternatively, should the owner send the entire unit back annually for inspection and repair as part of the normal routine maintenance schedule? I know from OC experience that sending regulators off to the shop every year for a full clean and tune-up can result in more problems than they ever went in with... so, is that also the case with the Inspiration? Is the unit best left un-molested unless it develops a fault?

Thank you.
Dave.

**Gill Envy** · 28th December 2006, 21:02

Quote: (Originally Posted by Dive Sprite)

Hi Guys,
Many thanks Gilll Envy and others for the excellent responses.

It appears that the Vision only continues to suffer with some software issues from time to time - which might be battery voltage related. The ADV seems to be a common area of concern - but is that a maintenance issue in reality? Should the ADV be inspected and serviced regularly - before it starts to leak?

That leads me on to maintenance... How often (if at all) should an inspiration owner fully strip down their entire unit and clean, inspect, lubricate or renew all the parts and orings etc?

Alternatively, should the owner send the entire unit back annually for inspection and repair as part of the normal routine maintenance schedule? I know from OC experience that sending regulators off to the shop every year for a full clean and tune-up can result in more problems than they ever went in with... so, is that also the case with the Inspiration? Is the unit best left un-molested unless it develops a fault?

Thank you.
Dave.

It seems that AP has taken the approach that sending in the unit on an annual basis is what you should expect. With a new unit the basics are covered for the first year. a friend just got his evo back from the first year tune up, he did have to pay for some basic overhaul stuff for the regs but it was minimal. There are pros and cons to this aproach.

In general, i i think to a fault, AP does not want you doing any major breakdowns on your unit. From what i can tell it will even void your warranty. My only problem with this is that it takes a good month from the time sent to get the unit back (when shipping from the US)...so that's a month out of every year, assuming you don't have any problems in between...add a month for every major problem that can't be fixed on the spot.

Peter Den Han does make significant efforts to help avert the need to send all the way back to AP if he happens to come through town and can do the repair himself…which I very much appreciate.

My take at this point is that no manufacturer can make a rebreather that will not have malfunctions, the rebreather world is many years behind the OC world in terms of reliability of electronics and hardware. As malfunctions are currently inevitable all manufacturers should design their rebreathers with field serviceability in mind. AP does not do this, they have taken the opposite tact.

It's tricky though, i can see how AP is caught between a rock and a hard place with this. Having easily ten times as many units out there as any other manufacturer, the likelyhood that there will be more overall fatalities is higher. As much as we generally agree that the vast majority of fatalities are due to user error we also have a tendency to rail on any kind of consistent malfunction. Fatalities and mal***tions gives them bad press which they naturally want to avoid. On occasion the accident involves a modified or improperly functioning unit that the diver worked on themselves. I can see the temptation to clamp down on maintenance.

It's my understanding that we will have a local factory certified repair facility here in the north west which will reduce the need for sending one's unit all the way back to the UK. i'm very much looking forward to this but also hope they work to make evo/inspo more field servicable, with the understanding that no matter how well they are cared for and maintained, unexpected malfunctions are inevitable and very frustrating for someone who plunks down big bucks for what they was billed as a device that would increase one’s diving freedom.

***caveseeker7*** · 29th December 2006, 05:25

Call me ignorant, Gill, but SDS started in Canada before seting up shop in the US - with a service facility!? That was my understanding, anyway. Maybe the other way around. So unless somthing major is wrong, like maybe potting, AP units should not have to leave North America. Certainly not for items like the ADV or software ... .

**Gill Envy** · 29th December 2006, 06:19

Quote: (Originally Posted by caveseeker7)

Call me ignorant, Gill, but SDS started in Canada before seting up shop in the US - with a service facility!? That was my understanding, anyway. Maybe the other way around. So unless somthing major is wrong, like maybe potting, AP units should not have to leave North America. Certainly not for items like the ADV or software ... .

well i am not sure what constitutes major, but for the solenoid problem my wife's unit went back to the UK and it took 5+ weeks to get it back. I was told the problem was a "severed" wire. It first went to the facility on the east coast and then was determined to be too complicated a problem so it went on to the UK, at least that is what I was told.
I'm told bubbles below, in woodenville is getting cirtified for repair...one can only hope this should reduce turn around time for us here in the WA area.
Some day, in my dreams, we will get really organized and start some kind of a club, go in on purchasing a few back up heads and have them ready to drop ship anywhere in the world.

27th December 2006, 17:30	#1 (permalink)
Dive Sprite New Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Reading UK Posts: 32	APD problems solved? Hi, After a long wait, my Inspiration/Vision is due to be delivered to my instructor in 2 weeks (or so). I made the decision to go with the Inspiration after trying both the Meg and the Kiss - and because I believe it suits my diving requirements and own capabilities. Now, on this forum I can see many repeated failures on the 'classic' and Vision Inspiration. These include cracked handsets, software issues, battery bounce and more. Some of these problems seem to have caused life-threatening situations on more than one occasion. Not all are about user error - but unit related failures (design or manufacturing faults). Also, it seems to me that these problems are far more reported on the Inspiration than on any other forum on RBW. Meg, Kiss and other owners don't seem to have the volume of 'common' problems (yes - I am aware that the inspiration has sold many more units than any other - and that being fully electronic makes it far more complicated than some other units - but the community seems to be under the impression that the inspiration is still a bit of a turkey?). With the above in mind, and as a newbie half way through the manual and as yet untrained (so please forgive me if this is a dumb set of questions) - please can you let me have the benefit of your advice on the following: With the latest version of the Vision/Inspiration - have these common problems all been ironed out, or are there simply new problems being created by the introduction of the vision software / new handset / redesigned head? What are the primary problems and failure points with the new units that a newbie owner ought to be fully apprised of? In your experience, is there a maintenance schedule that a new owner should strictly observe to prevent these specific failures? I am dedicated to my training and unit, this set of questions is just to clarify if the new units suffer a similar or different set of common problems to those that I have seen on this forum and other archives, mainly with the Classic Inspiration. Many thanks in advance for your input. Dave. Last edited by Dive Sprite : 27th December 2006 at 17:34. Reason: formatting errors only
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27th December 2006, 20:08	#2 (permalink)
johanvanlyl New Member Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Belgium Posts: 44	Re: APD problems solved? Hello Dave, i got my unit last october and yours will be identical (hard & software) as mine. with the latest software version i got no issues so far although i must confess to have only about 14 hours on the unit by now. got a weird oxygen cell on the 3rd dive, which was replaced by apdiving's Nicky. so far my unit behaved flawless. the vision units seem to have overcome the hardware problems as battery bounce, cracked handsets and so on, there seems only a sofware problem every now and then.... good luck with the training ! johan (belgium) Quote: (Originally Posted by Dive Sprite) Hi, After a long wait, my Inspiration/Vision is due to be delivered to my instructor in 2 weeks (or so). I made the decision to go with the Inspiration after trying both the Meg and the Kiss - and because I believe it suits my diving requirements and own capabilities. Now, on this forum I can see many repeated failures on the 'classic' and Vision Inspiration. These include cracked handsets, software issues, battery bounce and more. Some of these problems seem to have caused life-threatening situations on more than one occasion. Not all are about user error - but unit related failures (design or manufacturing faults). Also, it seems to me that these problems are far more reported on the Inspiration than on any other forum on RBW. Meg, Kiss and other owners don't seem to have the volume of 'common' problems (yes - I am aware that the inspiration has sold many more units than any other - and that being fully electronic makes it far more complicated than some other units - but the community seems to be under the impression that the inspiration is still a bit of a turkey?). With the above in mind, and as a newbie half way through the manual and as yet untrained (so please forgive me if this is a dumb set of questions) - please can you let me have the benefit of your advice on the following: With the latest version of the Vision/Inspiration - have these common problems all been ironed out, or are there simply new problems being created by the introduction of the vision software / new handset / redesigned head? What are the primary problems and failure points with the new units that a newbie owner ought to be fully apprised of? In your experience, is there a maintenance schedule that a new owner should strictly observe to prevent these specific failures? I am dedicated to my training and unit, this set of questions is just to clarify if the new units suffer a similar or different set of common problems to those that I have seen on this forum and other archives, mainly with the Classic Inspiration. Many thanks in advance for your input. Dave.
(Offline)

27th December 2006, 20:10	#3 (permalink)
Doorduijn, Niels Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic MK 15.X Dolphin Other Rebreather/s: Dolphin Join Date: May 2005 Location: Netherlands Posts: 53	Re: APD problems solved? Cracked handsets is something relating to the handsets of the Inspiration Classic. It should not apply to your Vision. Rgs, Niels Doorduijn
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27th December 2006, 20:25	#4 (permalink)
Gill Envy Shearwater Copis Divers Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Evolution Other CCR Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: seattle Posts: 1,341	Re: APD problems solved? 1. an obscure solenoid issue came up early on in my wife's unit...wasn't life threatening since the pre-dive check caught it and we should have caught it by the po2 being low, by no clicking sound and all. 2. had a bogus cns warning on one dive due to a battery swap from b1 to b2 causing some king of glitche...a minor issue, mostly just nerve racking at the time with the buzzer going off incesently. 3. purchased a bad batch of batteries on line which conveniently demonstrated for me that most of the "software bugs" are more likely a voltage regulation issue...the vision seems quite sensative to precipetous drops in voltage. sent the batteries back, found a good source of duracell ultras that were well within their expiration date (the only other brand battery from the fijitsu's that seem to have the required decay characteristics). Keeping our fingers crossed and swapping batteries out in advance enough to avoid letting the charge drop enough that the brain would be forced to hand off to b2... All seems to be good. I have the original software that came with my unit in april of 06 and my wife has the newest version...neither are having any of the timer issues. 4. The ADV seems to be a potential week point. I had a free flow incident which was hard to nail down. This incident could have been life threatening i suppose, by the time i realized what was happening most of my dilluent had drained...but then again, there is that fine line again between user erro vs unit...i should have noticed this problem earlier i suppose. I fixed what i thought was the problem, greased the banjo fitting...seemed to do the trick, only to notice many dives later that the adv was a small leaking into the inhale counter lung. recently had this fixed while peter denhan was in town...seems to have done the trick. you can see we have had our share of things happen that have shacken our confidence a bit but all and all we really enjoy the vision electronics and to date do not see another unit that would better suit our needs and preferences. __________________ Gill Envy ...Because I wasn't born with gills! ><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°> Last edited by Gill Envy : 27th December 2006 at 20:28.
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28th December 2006, 07:49	#5 (permalink)
PCDiver Submerge Productions Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Belgium Posts: 999	Re: APD problems solved? About the Vision software bugs - There is still a minor problem with the battery management and with non-standard low setpoints. Both should be fixed by the next software release (3.0) that is scheduled to come out in the New Year. I already have an updated version on my system with improved battery management and had no problems with it.
(Offline)

28th December 2006, 08:05	#6 (permalink)
Nicholas von Rosen Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Helsingoer, Denmark Posts: 151	Re: APD problems solved? Had my vision in november . No big issues... Only had the SI software problem ... - wich gave a god loooong deco on dive 2 off the day Nick __________________ NICK
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28th December 2006, 20:15	#7 (permalink)
Dive Sprite New Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Reading UK Posts: 32	Re: APD problems solved? Hi Guys, Many thanks Gilll Envy and others for the excellent responses. It appears that the Vision only continues to suffer with some software issues from time to time - which might be battery voltage related. The ADV seems to be a common area of concern - but is that a maintenance issue in reality? Should the ADV be inspected and serviced regularly - before it starts to leak? That leads me on to maintenance... How often (if at all) should an inspiration owner fully strip down their entire unit and clean, inspect, lubricate or renew all the parts and orings etc? Alternatively, should the owner send the entire unit back annually for inspection and repair as part of the normal routine maintenance schedule? I know from OC experience that sending regulators off to the shop every year for a full clean and tune-up can result in more problems than they ever went in with... so, is that also the case with the Inspiration? Is the unit best left un-molested unless it develops a fault? Thank you. Dave.
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28th December 2006, 21:02	#8 (permalink)
Gill Envy Shearwater Copis Divers Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Evolution Other CCR Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: seattle Posts: 1,341	Re: APD problems solved? Quote: (Originally Posted by Dive Sprite) Hi Guys, Many thanks Gilll Envy and others for the excellent responses. It appears that the Vision only continues to suffer with some software issues from time to time - which might be battery voltage related. The ADV seems to be a common area of concern - but is that a maintenance issue in reality? Should the ADV be inspected and serviced regularly - before it starts to leak? That leads me on to maintenance... How often (if at all) should an inspiration owner fully strip down their entire unit and clean, inspect, lubricate or renew all the parts and orings etc? Alternatively, should the owner send the entire unit back annually for inspection and repair as part of the normal routine maintenance schedule? I know from OC experience that sending regulators off to the shop every year for a full clean and tune-up can result in more problems than they ever went in with... so, is that also the case with the Inspiration? Is the unit best left un-molested unless it develops a fault? Thank you. Dave. It seems that AP has taken the approach that sending in the unit on an annual basis is what you should expect. With a new unit the basics are covered for the first year. a friend just got his evo back from the first year tune up, he did have to pay for some basic overhaul stuff for the regs but it was minimal. There are pros and cons to this aproach. In general, i i think to a fault, AP does not want you doing any major breakdowns on your unit. From what i can tell it will even void your warranty. My only problem with this is that it takes a good month from the time sent to get the unit back (when shipping from the US)...so that's a month out of every year, assuming you don't have any problems in between...add a month for every major problem that can't be fixed on the spot. Peter Den Han does make significant efforts to help avert the need to send all the way back to AP if he happens to come through town and can do the repair himself…which I very much appreciate. My take at this point is that no manufacturer can make a rebreather that will not have malfunctions, the rebreather world is many years behind the OC world in terms of reliability of electronics and hardware. As malfunctions are currently inevitable all manufacturers should design their rebreathers with field serviceability in mind. AP does not do this, they have taken the opposite tact. It's tricky though, i can see how AP is caught between a rock and a hard place with this. Having easily ten times as many units out there as any other manufacturer, the likelyhood that there will be more overall fatalities is higher. As much as we generally agree that the vast majority of fatalities are due to user error we also have a tendency to rail on any kind of consistent malfunction. Fatalities and mal***tions gives them bad press which they naturally want to avoid. On occasion the accident involves a modified or improperly functioning unit that the diver worked on themselves. I can see the temptation to clamp down on maintenance. It's my understanding that we will have a local factory certified repair facility here in the north west which will reduce the need for sending one's unit all the way back to the UK. i'm very much looking forward to this but also hope they work to make evo/inspo more field servicable, with the understanding that no matter how well they are cared for and maintained, unexpected malfunctions are inevitable and very frustrating for someone who plunks down big bucks for what they was billed as a device that would increase one’s diving freedom. __________________ Gill Envy ...Because I wasn't born with gills! ><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>
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29th December 2006, 05:25	#9 (permalink)
*caveseeker7* Who loves ya, baby Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Too far from Neverland Posts: 5,535	Re: APD problems solved? Call me ignorant, Gill, but SDS started in Canada before seting up shop in the US - with a service facility!? That was my understanding, anyway. Maybe the other way around. So unless somthing major is wrong, like maybe potting, AP units should not have to leave North America. Certainly not for items like the ADV or software ... . __________________ Cheers Stefan "Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.!"
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29th December 2006, 06:19	#10 (permalink)
Gill Envy Shearwater Copis Divers Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Evolution Other CCR Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: seattle Posts: 1,341	Re: APD problems solved? Quote: (Originally Posted by caveseeker7) Call me ignorant, Gill, but SDS started in Canada before seting up shop in the US - with a service facility!? That was my understanding, anyway. Maybe the other way around. So unless somthing major is wrong, like maybe potting, AP units should not have to leave North America. Certainly not for items like the ADV or software ... . well i am not sure what constitutes major, but for the solenoid problem my wife's unit went back to the UK and it took 5+ weeks to get it back. I was told the problem was a "severed" wire. It first went to the facility on the east coast and then was determined to be too complicated a problem so it went on to the UK, at least that is what I was told. I'm told bubbles below, in woodenville is getting cirtified for repair...one can only hope this should reduce turn around time for us here in the WA area. Some day, in my dreams, we will get really organized and start some kind of a club, go in on purchasing a few back up heads and have them ready to drop ship anywhere in the world. __________________ Gill Envy ...Because I wasn't born with gills! ><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>
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