Evo

what2be · 19th May 2006, 04:30

Just ordered my Evo this week. Have training planned with Peter Den Haan around the end of June. I lurked on here and other sites as much as possible before I made my decision. I wanted to post on here earlier, but everytime I had a question I did a search and found the answer. Great group of guys on here. Hopefully I can add my own .2 cents sometime to help out.

One question though. I have a friend that was pointing me in the direction of the new Diverite O2ptima and while it looks like a nice piece, I still dont think it offers the same things Im looking for that the Evo does. One thing I did notice about the O2ptima is that it has 2 handsets versus one on the Evo, but In my opinion, with redundancy in the evo handset, I really dont see why you would ever need 2 handsets. Anyone out there know if the O2ptima offers anything the Evo is lacking?

01RMB · 19th May 2006, 07:34

I am biased but diving the Evolution I think that it is great unit and has surprised many of the Inspiration divers I dive with with its capabilities. The inbuilt computer, HUD and temp stik are wonderful. Very simple and straight forward to set up and dive.

The single handset makes it easy to ensure both controllers are being monitored and you can quickly see the cell readings from the other controller with a press of a button. Also the HUD monitors both controllers independantly as well. Either battery (and even both batteires if both are low) will power either controller.

I have been very happy with the Evo. Have fun when you get it.

***caveseeker7*** · 19th May 2006, 09:03

Quote: (Originally Posted by what2be)

I really dont see why you would ever need 2 handsets. Anyone out there know if the O2ptima offers anything the Evo is lacking?

The electronics are quite different, if the AP electronics lack anything compared to others depends on who you ask.

The Optima's Hammerhead electronics have an independent and completely separate pO2 monitor with dive timer and depth readout and thus offer redundancy. The secondary allows you to dive the rebreather manually and use backup tables for deco.

The primary handset only is equiped with a setpoint controller and also contains the deco computer.

In addition, the batteries are in the handsets they supply, again separate and independent from one another.

Personally I prefer the combination of a setpoint controller and independent pO2 monitor over dual, dependent setpoint controllers, but judging by AP's huge success most people either don't agree or don't care.

***jradomski*** · 19th May 2006, 09:34

Quote: (Originally Posted by caveseeker7)

The electronics are quite different, if the AP electronics lack anything compared to others depends on who you ask.

The Optima's Hammerhead electronics have an independent and completely separate pO2 monitor with dive timer and depth readout and thus offer redundancy. The secondary allows you to dive the rebreather manually and use backup tables for deco.

The primary handset only is equiped with a setpoint controller and also contains the deco computer.

In addition, the batteries are in the handsets they supply, again separate and independent from one another.

Personally I prefer the combination of a setpoint controller and independent pO2 monitor over dual, dependent setpoint controllers, but judging by AP's huge success most people either don't agree or don't care.

I couldn't agree more.. The more independent the electronics are, the better... I think from a redundancy stand point the vision is a step BACKWARD from the original classic electonics although they do offer more features..

One display isnt a bad thing if you can use the HUD as an additonal dispay (which you can), the thing I dont like is that the batteries are not independent (I also would prefer them out of the loop), from an enginering standpoint a single failure can take the whole system down, there really is no way to be a backup and be shared at the same time (there will be failure modes that will take both down).. I am willing to go with a single point of failure being the sensor because of a flood, if this happens theer would be other concerns as well, but power is a forseable single point of failure.

I also prefer only 1 controller, and a backup manual means (display).. The 2 controller arrangement with a shared solenoid always bugged me, if you want 2 controllers I think they should have independent solenoids AND a way to cut gas from either solenoid..

I could think of a way I would use 2 "masters" with a single solenoid, and that would be have the solenod be a MP controleld stand alone device that can receive commands over independent communication channels with a way to have one controller under very specific sequences to be able to tell the "solenoid controller" to ignore requests fronm a specific setpoint controller.. of course now I would want an independent power supply for the "solenoid controller" and solenoid

***Beanie*** · 19th May 2006, 09:48

Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski)

I also prefer only 1 controller, and a backup manual means (display).. The 2 controller arrangement with a shared solenoid always bugged me, if you want 2 controllers I think they should have independent solenoids AND a way to cut gas from either solenoid.

I like that idea

diverklondike · 19th May 2006, 12:27

Another difference between the units is gas supply... The Evo is a limited to a pair of 14cf bottles... The optima will handle a pair of 30cf bottles as well as several smaller configurations.

Dive Safe...

Mark

mattwave · 19th May 2006, 14:56

I am at a difference, and I am confused at your reasonings behind your preferences. The Evo's redundancy is far from a step backwards, the intelligence incorperated in the power management, the failure warings, the display readouts, the injection, the scrubber performance, the database regarding the dive profile and brain unit operations, HUD, deco and OC bailout, etc...

The list goes on, I would like to hear more specifics to justify your praise of the Hammerhead, because I just don't see the same intelligence the unit, and has had many issues without solid solutions to rectify. As many though you might not be aware of the true state of the art enginering built into the EVO, and if you look at the bottle size and the scrubber size you would justify that the unit is designed to operate as long as one reasonable mixed gas dive's duration would demand. If you need more you buy the Inspo/Vision.

The Vision's one handset it far from that, it is simply two handsets that are housed as one, and even better either side can work as either. I see the only benefit for two seperate components is if one wire were to be severed which in any case should be time to bailout, but really I haven't heard of such a case while diving. I would like to hear any other reasons why two handset units would be prefered over the Vision's true genious in the design.

diverklondike · 19th May 2006, 15:29

Quote: (Originally Posted by mattwave)

I am at a difference, and I am confused at your reasonings behind your preferences. The Evo's redundancy is far from a step backwards, the intelligence incorperated in the power management, the failure warings, the display readouts, the injection, the scrubber performance, the database regarding the dive profile and brain unit operations, HUD, deco and OC bailout, etc...

The list goes on, I would like to hear more specifics to justify your praise of the Hammerhead, because I just don't see the same intelligence the unit, and has had many issues without solid solutions to rectify. As many though you might not be aware of the true state of the art enginering built into the EVO, and if you look at the bottle size and the scrubber size you would justify that the unit is designed to operate as long as one reasonable mixed gas dive's duration would demand. If you need more you buy the Inspo/Vision.

The Vision's one handset it far from that, it is simply two handsets that are housed as one, and even better either side can work as either. I see the only benefit for two seperate components is if one wire were to be severed which in any case should be time to bailout, but really I haven't heard of such a case while diving. I would like to hear any other reasons why two handset units would be prefered over the Vision's true genious in the design.

I think that the Evo/Vision electronics are sound within reason but have not addressed several basic issues that have existed from the start with the classic...

Batteries are in the loop..

It's my understanding that the single wrist unit is still at ambient pressure... To me this means that there is a single "hose" that can leak and F)(*_)*(&* the electronics In the above you use the word... "severed"... History with AP electronics shows that you will get failure with much less. This means that you could loose your OC bailout computer capability at the same time...

Support for a 4th cell...

Easy to replace cell wiring...

To this point I think the jury is still out on Visions durability bugs etc... How long did it take to get the bug fixed in the nitrox software....

I am also in total agreement that there are a couple of nice things too..
Temp stick on the scrubber... hmmmmmmmm I think the statement "true genious in the design." is a bit of a

I am also not claiming that the HH is perfect..... I can say that I have not missed a dive due to it misbehaving to the point that some ProGold or the swap out of a cell wire did not fix....

Dive Safe...

Mark

mattwave · 19th May 2006, 15:42

None the less AP has the most State of the art facility for Rebreather manufacturing, enginering, and testing in the world, there is no debate to that fact, and Silent Diving Systems customer service is world class.

What2be, your decision to go with the EVO I beleive was a good one, AP will be making top quality rebreathers for years to come. Peter Den Haan is an excellent instructor and his crudentials are I am sure higher than whom has replied on your thread. I would listen to him foremost and trust his input.

Good Luck with your Silent Diving adventures.

***jradomski*** · 19th May 2006, 16:17

Quote: (Originally Posted by mattwave)

I am at a difference, and I am confused at your reasonings behind your preferences. The Evo's redundancy is far from a step backwards, the intelligence incorperated in the power management, the failure warings, the display readouts, the injection, the scrubber performance, the database regarding the dive profile and brain unit operations, HUD, deco and OC bailout, etc...

The list goes on, I would like to hear more specifics to justify your praise of the Hammerhead, because I just don't see the same intelligence the unit, and has had many issues without solid solutions to rectify. As many though you might not be aware of the true state of the art enginering built into the EVO, and if you look at the bottle size and the scrubber size you would justify that the unit is designed to operate as long as one reasonable mixed gas dive's duration would demand. If you need more you buy the Inspo/Vision.

The Vision's one handset it far from that, it is simply two handsets that are housed as one, and even better either side can work as either. I see the only benefit for two seperate components is if one wire were to be severed which in any case should be time to bailout, but really I haven't heard of such a case while diving. I would like to hear any other reasons why two handset units would be prefered over the Vision's true genious in the design.

Matt,
The evo (vision) has alot of nice functions, but like it or not you CAN'T have a power supply thats both redundant and shared. You can try all you want but if you share power functions there will be failure modes that will kill both your primary and backup functions at the same time.. The only solution to power supply redundancy is total isolation..

On the EVO (vison) the HUD acts as a second display this is fine, but its still not truely seperate if there are any other shared components.. Sharing cells is easy and still remain some reasonable means of isolation, but sharing power or communications means you need at least one truely shared point.. That means you need a common point of reference that would be ground... now since you have a shared ground nothing is isolated...

Sensors can use a shared pts through isolation resistors so that feedback isnt an issue, but once there is a common pt of communications or power you need truely shared references.. You can do all the "intelligent" power managment you want fact is you cant have it both ways shared and independent.. Shared backup power designs have a realtively low risk of one supply killing the other in a DRY enviroment, but the chance of flooding negates any advantage gained and increase the risk of a total power failure.

You CAN safely use a single display to talk to multiple controllers, but that also would require isolation.. The display would need its own power supply and it can talk to the "controllers" through electrically isolated links..

The HH has had its share of issues and is not perfect, but the one thing that IS done right is that both the primary and secondary are truely independent even shorting the conductors for the cells (like the old fischer connectors by flooding) had no effect on the other handset.. When problems have surfaced they were attended to quickly and fixed..

I am not saying the Vison isn't a nice set of electronics but the fact is the Classic HAD independent batteries (albeit in the same enclosure) so a short in one handset didn't effect the power on the other (there were some other issues though).. When it comes to power solutions the simpliest is usually the best. (the comment was about redundancy not features)

You can have as many warning systems as you want, but without power, its useless...

BTW Dave T also dives a HammerHead..

19th May 2006, 04:30	#1 (permalink)
what2be New Member Current Rebreather/s: Evolution Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Eureka, Ca Posts: 94	Evo Just ordered my Evo this week. Have training planned with Peter Den Haan around the end of June. I lurked on here and other sites as much as possible before I made my decision. I wanted to post on here earlier, but everytime I had a question I did a search and found the answer. Great group of guys on here. Hopefully I can add my own .2 cents sometime to help out. One question though. I have a friend that was pointing me in the direction of the new Diverite O2ptima and while it looks like a nice piece, I still dont think it offers the same things Im looking for that the Evo does. One thing I did notice about the O2ptima is that it has 2 handsets versus one on the Evo, but In my opinion, with redundancy in the evo handset, I really dont see why you would ever need 2 handsets. Anyone out there know if the O2ptima offers anything the Evo is lacking?
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19th May 2006, 07:34	#2 (permalink)
01RMB Evolving Current Rebreather/s: Evolution Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: May 2005 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 193	Re: Evo I am biased but diving the Evolution I think that it is great unit and has surprised many of the Inspiration divers I dive with with its capabilities. The inbuilt computer, HUD and temp stik are wonderful. Very simple and straight forward to set up and dive. The single handset makes it easy to ensure both controllers are being monitored and you can quickly see the cell readings from the other controller with a press of a button. Also the HUD monitors both controllers independantly as well. Either battery (and even both batteires if both are low) will power either controller. I have been very happy with the Evo. Have fun when you get it. __________________ Cheers Rod
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19th May 2006, 09:03	#3 (permalink)
*caveseeker7* Who loves ya, baby Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Too far from Neverland Posts: 5,535	Quote: (Originally Posted by what2be) I really dont see why you would ever need 2 handsets. Anyone out there know if the O2ptima offers anything the Evo is lacking? The electronics are quite different, if the AP electronics lack anything compared to others depends on who you ask. The Optima's Hammerhead electronics have an independent and completely separate pO2 monitor with dive timer and depth readout and thus offer redundancy. The secondary allows you to dive the rebreather manually and use backup tables for deco. The primary handset only is equiped with a setpoint controller and also contains the deco computer. In addition, the batteries are in the handsets they supply, again separate and independent from one another. Personally I prefer the combination of a setpoint controller and independent pO2 monitor over dual, dependent setpoint controllers, but judging by AP's huge success most people either don't agree or don't care. __________________ Cheers Stefan "Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.!"
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19th May 2006, 09:34	#4 (permalink)
*jradomski* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx Posts: 3,095	Re: Evo Quote: (Originally Posted by caveseeker7) The electronics are quite different, if the AP electronics lack anything compared to others depends on who you ask. The Optima's Hammerhead electronics have an independent and completely separate pO2 monitor with dive timer and depth readout and thus offer redundancy. The secondary allows you to dive the rebreather manually and use backup tables for deco. The primary handset only is equiped with a setpoint controller and also contains the deco computer. In addition, the batteries are in the handsets they supply, again separate and independent from one another. Personally I prefer the combination of a setpoint controller and independent pO2 monitor over dual, dependent setpoint controllers, but judging by AP's huge success most people either don't agree or don't care. I couldn't agree more.. The more independent the electronics are, the better... I think from a redundancy stand point the vision is a step BACKWARD from the original classic electonics although they do offer more features.. One display isnt a bad thing if you can use the HUD as an additonal dispay (which you can), the thing I dont like is that the batteries are not independent (I also would prefer them out of the loop), from an enginering standpoint a single failure can take the whole system down, there really is no way to be a backup and be shared at the same time (there will be failure modes that will take both down).. I am willing to go with a single point of failure being the sensor because of a flood, if this happens theer would be other concerns as well, but power is a forseable single point of failure. I also prefer only 1 controller, and a backup manual means (display).. The 2 controller arrangement with a shared solenoid always bugged me, if you want 2 controllers I think they should have independent solenoids AND a way to cut gas from either solenoid.. I could think of a way I would use 2 "masters" with a single solenoid, and that would be have the solenod be a MP controleld stand alone device that can receive commands over independent communication channels with a way to have one controller under very specific sequences to be able to tell the "solenoid controller" to ignore requests fronm a specific setpoint controller.. of course now I would want an independent power supply for the "solenoid controller" and solenoid __________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated. Last edited by jradomski : 19th May 2006 at 13:09.
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19th May 2006, 09:48	#5 (permalink)
*Beanie* Gallery Administrator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: In da house! yeah baby! Posts: 3,292	Re: Evo Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski) I also prefer only 1 controller, and a backup manual means (display).. The 2 controller arrangement with a shared solenoid always bugged me, if you want 2 controllers I think they should have independent solenoids AND a way to cut gas from either solenoid. I like that idea __________________ Beanie Gallery Admin & Library Assistant. www.outlawdivers.org.uk www.beandiving.co.uk www.beanengineering.co.uk
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19th May 2006, 12:27	#6 (permalink)
diverklondike RBW Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Delaware, USA Posts: 1,699	Re: Evo Another difference between the units is gas supply... The Evo is a limited to a pair of 14cf bottles... The optima will handle a pair of 30cf bottles as well as several smaller configurations. Dive Safe... Mark
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19th May 2006, 14:56	#7 (permalink)
mattwave New Member Current Rebreather/s: Evolution Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Seattle Posts: 47	Re: Evo I am at a difference, and I am confused at your reasonings behind your preferences. The Evo's redundancy is far from a step backwards, the intelligence incorperated in the power management, the failure warings, the display readouts, the injection, the scrubber performance, the database regarding the dive profile and brain unit operations, HUD, deco and OC bailout, etc... The list goes on, I would like to hear more specifics to justify your praise of the Hammerhead, because I just don't see the same intelligence the unit, and has had many issues without solid solutions to rectify. As many though you might not be aware of the true state of the art enginering built into the EVO, and if you look at the bottle size and the scrubber size you would justify that the unit is designed to operate as long as one reasonable mixed gas dive's duration would demand. If you need more you buy the Inspo/Vision. The Vision's one handset it far from that, it is simply two handsets that are housed as one, and even better either side can work as either. I see the only benefit for two seperate components is if one wire were to be severed which in any case should be time to bailout, but really I haven't heard of such a case while diving. I would like to hear any other reasons why two handset units would be prefered over the Vision's true genious in the design.
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19th May 2006, 15:29	#8 (permalink)
diverklondike RBW Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Delaware, USA Posts: 1,699	Re: Evo Quote: (Originally Posted by mattwave) I am at a difference, and I am confused at your reasonings behind your preferences. The Evo's redundancy is far from a step backwards, the intelligence incorperated in the power management, the failure warings, the display readouts, the injection, the scrubber performance, the database regarding the dive profile and brain unit operations, HUD, deco and OC bailout, etc... The list goes on, I would like to hear more specifics to justify your praise of the Hammerhead, because I just don't see the same intelligence the unit, and has had many issues without solid solutions to rectify. As many though you might not be aware of the true state of the art enginering built into the EVO, and if you look at the bottle size and the scrubber size you would justify that the unit is designed to operate as long as one reasonable mixed gas dive's duration would demand. If you need more you buy the Inspo/Vision. The Vision's one handset it far from that, it is simply two handsets that are housed as one, and even better either side can work as either. I see the only benefit for two seperate components is if one wire were to be severed which in any case should be time to bailout, but really I haven't heard of such a case while diving. I would like to hear any other reasons why two handset units would be prefered over the Vision's true genious in the design. I think that the Evo/Vision electronics are sound within reason but have not addressed several basic issues that have existed from the start with the classic... Batteries are in the loop.. It's my understanding that the single wrist unit is still at ambient pressure... To me this means that there is a single "hose" that can leak and F)(_)(&* the electronics In the above you use the word... "severed"... History with AP electronics shows that you will get failure with much less. This means that you could loose your OC bailout computer capability at the same time... Support for a 4th cell... Easy to replace cell wiring... To this point I think the jury is still out on Visions durability bugs etc... How long did it take to get the bug fixed in the nitrox software.... I am also in total agreement that there are a couple of nice things too.. Temp stick on the scrubber... hmmmmmmmm I think the statement "true genious in the design." is a bit of a I am also not claiming that the HH is perfect..... I can say that I have not missed a dive due to it misbehaving to the point that some ProGold or the swap out of a cell wire did not fix.... Dive Safe... Mark
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19th May 2006, 15:42	#9 (permalink)
mattwave New Member Current Rebreather/s: Evolution Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Seattle Posts: 47	Re: Evo None the less AP has the most State of the art facility for Rebreather manufacturing, enginering, and testing in the world, there is no debate to that fact, and Silent Diving Systems customer service is world class. What2be, your decision to go with the EVO I beleive was a good one, AP will be making top quality rebreathers for years to come. Peter Den Haan is an excellent instructor and his crudentials are I am sure higher than whom has replied on your thread. I would listen to him foremost and trust his input. Good Luck with your Silent Diving adventures. Last edited by mattwave : 19th May 2006 at 16:23.
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19th May 2006, 16:17	#10 (permalink)
*jradomski* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx Posts: 3,095	Re: Evo Quote: (Originally Posted by mattwave) I am at a difference, and I am confused at your reasonings behind your preferences. The Evo's redundancy is far from a step backwards, the intelligence incorperated in the power management, the failure warings, the display readouts, the injection, the scrubber performance, the database regarding the dive profile and brain unit operations, HUD, deco and OC bailout, etc... The list goes on, I would like to hear more specifics to justify your praise of the Hammerhead, because I just don't see the same intelligence the unit, and has had many issues without solid solutions to rectify. As many though you might not be aware of the true state of the art enginering built into the EVO, and if you look at the bottle size and the scrubber size you would justify that the unit is designed to operate as long as one reasonable mixed gas dive's duration would demand. If you need more you buy the Inspo/Vision. The Vision's one handset it far from that, it is simply two handsets that are housed as one, and even better either side can work as either. I see the only benefit for two seperate components is if one wire were to be severed which in any case should be time to bailout, but really I haven't heard of such a case while diving. I would like to hear any other reasons why two handset units would be prefered over the Vision's true genious in the design. Matt, The evo (vision) has alot of nice functions, but like it or not you CAN'T have a power supply thats both redundant and shared. You can try all you want but if you share power functions there will be failure modes that will kill both your primary and backup functions at the same time.. The only solution to power supply redundancy is total isolation.. On the EVO (vison) the HUD acts as a second display this is fine, but its still not truely seperate if there are any other shared components.. Sharing cells is easy and still remain some reasonable means of isolation, but sharing power or communications means you need at least one truely shared point.. That means you need a common point of reference that would be ground... now since you have a shared ground nothing is isolated... Sensors can use a shared pts through isolation resistors so that feedback isnt an issue, but once there is a common pt of communications or power you need truely shared references.. You can do all the "intelligent" power managment you want fact is you cant have it both ways shared and independent.. Shared backup power designs have a realtively low risk of one supply killing the other in a DRY enviroment, but the chance of flooding negates any advantage gained and increase the risk of a total power failure. You CAN safely use a single display to talk to multiple controllers, but that also would require isolation.. The display would need its own power supply and it can talk to the "controllers" through electrically isolated links.. The HH has had its share of issues and is not perfect, but the one thing that IS done right is that both the primary and secondary are truely independent even shorting the conductors for the cells (like the old fischer connectors by flooding) had no effect on the other handset.. When problems have surfaced they were attended to quickly and fixed.. I am not saying the Vison isn't a nice set of electronics but the fact is the Classic HAD independent batteries (albeit in the same enclosure) so a short in one handset didn't effect the power on the other (there were some other issues though).. When it comes to power solutions the simpliest is usually the best. (the comment was about redundancy not features) You can have as many warning systems as you want, but without power, its useless... BTW Dave T also dives a HammerHead.. __________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated. Last edited by jradomski : 19th May 2006 at 16:21.
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