Evo - Page 2

mattwave · 19th May 2006, 16:33

Yes rarely is there a perfect world, and I understand your preference, but as to debate, if the unit "Floods", I most likely will end up on bailout, even so the EVO now has sealed battery compartments. The intelligence in power management feature is to keep 2 controllers operating in a single battery failure situation, where the unit will choose to drain one or the other battery or both giving you warnings to either override or choose to bailout before the unit ulimately "Tells" you to bailout. I would like to hear how if the integrity of the loop is compromised and the unit floods how you could stop the flood and remain on the loop. Or if your DSV is removed from your mouth open how the "Sealed" battery compartment of the Vision's design will fail, if the flood is that drastic how can you keep a safe loop?

***jradomski*** · 19th May 2006, 16:42

Quote: (Originally Posted by mattwave)

Yes rarely is there a perfect world, and I understand your preference, but as to debate, if I "Flood" the unit, I most likely will bailout, even so the EVO now has sealed battery compartments. The intelligence in power management feature is to keep 2 controllers operating in a single battery failure situation, where the unit will choose to drain one or the other battery or both giving you warnings to either override or choose to bailout before the unit ulimately "Tells" you to bailout. I would like to hear how if the integrity of the loop is compromised and the unit floods how you could stop the flood and remain on the loop. Or if your DSV is removed from your mouth open how the "Sealed" battery compartment of the Vision's design will fail, if the flood is that drastic how can you keep a safe loop?

My concern is not a total loop flood but one that allows water into the handset.. Fine you lose the display, and if the powere were truely isolated youd be ok by the HUD.. but They do have to power up the handset, that means sending voltage down the cables.. that means at some point VCC and ground could be shorted.. There are going to be multiple factors that determine how bad the short is, but the PS could be compromised..
also I dont know wheere the voltage for the backlight is produced, the BL generally neeed a greater source of voltage to operate, so that means either a charge pump in the handset or voltage coming from the head..

I do know of people that HAVE flooded handsets on the classic and it stayed as a single failure, and the dive (deco) was able to be completed on the loop instead of OC.

mattwave · 19th May 2006, 16:56

Alright, I see how one could make that argument, but we could argue issues more relevant between the two RBs. When you start hearing of multipule cases of Vision handset floods or even one, we can talk about concerns, but "Failure Points" as I hope you know can get thrown around without genuine reasons.

All the Rebreather divers I frequently dive with were trained to be confident in our team bailout gas mangement for failure in the team ratio and in a handset flood situation I would hope that we could end the dive(deco) safely on bailout.

***caveseeker7*** · 19th May 2006, 19:40

Quote: (Originally Posted by mattwave)

... the injection, ...

The Hammerhead offers different injection modes and if you compare printouts from cell integrated computers the HH has the edge over stock electronics when it comes to setpoint maintainance.

Quote:

... the scrubber performance, ...

The TempStick doesn't improve scrubber performance, at best it allows the diver to push the scrubber further and go home after the dive. Scrubber performance between AP's scrubber and Micropore's is another matter, though I don't know if the Evo's smaller cannister actually performs better than the cartridge.

Quote:

... the database regarding the dive profile and brain unit operations, ...

That is, like the TempStick, certainly a useful feature.

Quote:

... HUD, ...

The Hammerhead has that too, the DIVA in addition as well as the choice of getting hi/low pO2 warnings or actual pO2 values.

Quote:

... deco and OC bailout, etc...

The Hammerhead again offers that also, but as I mentioned adds a completely separate dive timer/depth meter for bailout with tables.

Quote:

The Vision's one handset it far from that, it is simply two handsets that are housed as one, ...

Not really. Cables and connectors are shared, the display itself is shared, the power supply is shared and the two setpoint controllers are wired together to communicate with one another. So there is no redundancy. The difference between reserve and independent backup. To put it in open circuit terms, the difference between doubles and doubles with a separation manifold and two regulators. One gives you the extra supply, the other gives you redundancy.

Quote:

I would like to hear any other reasons why two handset units would be prefered over the Vision's true genious in the design.

Okay. It's less an issue of a single handset than it is of the layout of said handset.

Take the Cis-Lunars handset for example. It contained one of the three setpoint controllers with it's own pressure (depth) transducer and deco computer and a battery to power it all. The information is displayed on the screen shared with the other two setpoint controllers. On the backside is another display, for pO2, that is powered by a second battery and connected to the unit by a second cable. Even with three setpoint controllers, dual depth sensors, three different displays and no less than four batteries spread over two locations, Bill Stone added a separate pO2 monitor with its own power supply and cable. And of all the redundancy build into the Cis, that is IMHO the most important one.

Quote: (Originally Posted by mattwave)

None the less AP has the most State of the art facility for Rebreather manufacturing, ...

AP certainly can turn out good looking parts at a high pace, you have a point there. On the other hand, if I look at the handset problem (cracks) that's still there after being in production for almost a decade there is either a problem in the design (engineering) or manufacture.

Quote:

... enginering, ...

They probably do, but I don't think they put them to as good a use as they could. There are rebreathers that are better engineered in many respects. The issue of redundancy has been discussed at length, but items like general layout, WOB, condensation points inside the loop, setpoint maintainance, information given by the HUD, gas management etc.

It took 9 months to fix the last software glitch, which shouldn't have been there in the first place if the engineering department was that good. And the fix was at the expense of the cell verification, a worthwhile (and advertised) feature. This kind of problem also reiterates the advantage of separating setpoint controller and pO2 monitor, when the software is faulty both controllers are inflicted. With a separate pO2 gauge that would much more likely not be the case as it runs on diffeent software (if it uses any at all).

To make things worse, non of it is witchcraft and quite some of it has been done better in the past. The engineers of the original MK15 already figured out that neither batteries nor solenoid belong into the loop, an independent pO2 display is an important thing to have and condensation in the sensor chamber is a bad thing. That was over 30 years ago!

Quote:

... and testing ...

They do have an ANSTI machine, which is great. Hasn't prevented any of the above mentioned problems as well as others that have occured in the past. But it's certainly convenient and allows for continued testing with a reduced chance of leaking data.

Quote:

... in the world,

Don't know about that. The competition can't match AP's testing equipment, but my money is on NAVSEA and whatever DERA is called these days when it comes to testing facilities.

And other companies can likely match or exceed AP's facilities for specific testing purposes.

Quote:

Peter Den Haan is an excellent instructor and his crudentials are I am sure higher than whom has replied on your thread. I would listen to him foremost and trust his input.

Crude-ntials.

That's a Freudian slip if I ever saw one.

I certainly can't match his credentials or experience, doesn't mean I'm wrong. Besides, I thoroughly enjoy a good discussion.

Mark or Joe probably could flash similar amounts impressive of plastic at you, though.

Last but not least, Peter is the West Coast rep for SDS, so he does have a financial stake in the success of AP's rebreathers in this area.

shell-back · 19th May 2006, 20:15

Quote: (Originally Posted by caveseeker7)

Last but not least, Peter is the West Coast rep for SDS, so he does have a financial stake in the success of AP's rebreathers in this area.

Damn , I had to read all that while awaiting the punch line!

Matt ,I think your Dad is a cool guy too

mattwave · 19th May 2006, 20:31

yes Caveseeker there will always be a different preference, I am not with the spare time to quote stack, but in a nutshell, I am at a difference with many of your responses. Some may be true but most are thin in my opinion, and a few just not up to date.
My reason for posting to what2be's question was for support in his decision for a fine production, civilian use Rebreather, not to discredit any other unit or boost or challenge any egos. Have a great time with it, I hope the EVO opposers don't question your decision at all.

what2be · 19th May 2006, 20:45

Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski)

Matt,
You can have as many warning systems as you want, but without power, its useless...

BTW Dave T also dives a HammerHead..

I agree 100%. I see your point completely. True redundancy is great, and I agree that having the batteries in the loop is asking for trouble if you get a flood. When people are arguing the pros for the evo, the argument really isnt sound to say that the evo has true redundancy. It really doesent. It has some redundancy, but not from start (power) to finish (handset). Like you pointed out, what good is a redundant controller with no power?
On the other hand, (and mind you, I havent even dove a Rebreather yet, so my opinion may be unfounded) is that If I have ANY sort of failure/problem with the RB,im going straight to the bailout and deco from my vr3. Why would I want to screw around with trying to fix the RB? Of course, I realize the evo has many contingencies built into it, and after my training I may feel different. But it just makes sense to me that I would want to get on some gas that I know the mix is, and doesent have any co2 problems. If you look at it in the most basic sense, there is only 3 things that can kill you, hyperoxia, hypoxia, and excessive co2. Am i correct? By switching to a bailout, you have covered all 3 of those issues (if your mix is right of course).

I'm curious on 200' ish dives, do people use 2 stages, 40cf, or just a single 80cf? Im familiar with OC deco, but not Rebreather, although I assume once you switch to bailout, you want the same planning as you would in OC.

Sorry if my questions sound ignorant, but I dont think my Rebreather training is going to cover any deco scenarios. From what I understand, I get training for basic 130' no stop diving.

**Gill Envy** · 19th May 2006, 23:31

Quote: (Originally Posted by what2be)

One question though. I have a friend that was pointing me in the direction of the new Diverite O2ptima and while it looks like a nice piece, I still dont think it offers the same things Im looking for that the Evo does. One thing I did notice about the O2ptima is that it has 2 handsets versus one on the Evo, but In my opinion, with redundancy in the evo handset, I really dont see why you would ever need 2 handsets. Anyone out there know if the O2ptima offers anything the Evo is lacking?

I'm an evo newbie for sure, with less than 20hours under my belt but I did go through this quandary recently and hopefully have something of value to share. I struggled with the decision about weather to go with the optima, the evolution or the meg quite a bit. Actually I think each are pretty cool in their own right.

The question of dual virsus single handset was a real point of perseveration . Having two totally independent handsets seemed very logical to me and steered me away from the evolution right from the start...it was 4 ½ months of noodling it over that eventually lead me to give the evo a second look. I finally decided that it was not as high a priority as some of the other features on the evolution. I was finally won over by the ease of use and simplicity.

I felt that having more than two screens (VR3 and vision handset) to look at traded one risk for another. I just could not get the image out of my mind of nervously glancing back and forth between screens trying to figure out which number on which screen was inconsistent. Information overload and potential for confusion and panic and thus delayed reaction cancelled out at least some of the advantage.

I finally sided, at least for the time being, with having one screen to focus on that I trust, no second handset, no back up VR3, just tables for bail out. If something goes wrong, and I’m still conscious, I’m off the loop…period. The only time I could see myself going back on the loop is if I ran out of bail out, in which case I’d be relying on the evos HUD and hopefully a hell of a lot shallower.

Arguing the benefits of having two independent power sources seems tempered by the added flexibility of having the primary and secondary able to take over or be combined.

The temp stick is really nice, and while it doesn’t make the scrubber more efficient per say, it does give you some objective guage as to your actual metabolic rate on a dive, which otherwise seemes to me like a guessing game that could tempt fate.

When PO2 is the truck that is most likely to run you over underwater, even build quality of hardware doesn’t necessarily equate with improved safety. That said, I’m finding it increasingly difficult to really argue what might make one rebreather safer than another. The sharing of preferences is valuable to me but all too often alludes conclusion. Until we can point to a given accident and say that “X” was the cause then we are really left with stating preferences based on training, personal experience and the sound of our logic rather than conclusive evidence.

***jradomski*** · 20th May 2006, 05:42

Quote: (Originally Posted by what2be)

I agree 100%. I see your point completely. True redundancy is great, and I agree that having the batteries in the loop is asking for trouble if you get a flood. When people are arguing the pros for the evo, the argument really isnt sound to say that the evo has true redundancy. It really doesent. It has some redundancy, but not from start (power) to finish (handset). Like you pointed out, what good is a redundant controller with no power?
On the other hand, (and mind you, I havent even dove a Rebreather yet, so my opinion may be unfounded) is that If I have ANY sort of failure/problem with the RB,im going straight to the bailout and deco from my vr3. Why would I want to screw around with trying to fix the RB? Of course, I realize the evo has many contingencies built into it, and after my training I may feel different. But it just makes sense to me that I would want to get on some gas that I know the mix is, and doesent have any co2 problems. If you look at it in the most basic sense, there is only 3 things that can kill you, hyperoxia, hypoxia, and excessive co2. Am i correct? By switching to a bailout, you have covered all 3 of those issues (if your mix is right of course).

I'm curious on 200' ish dives, do people use 2 stages, 40cf, or just a single 80cf? Im familiar with OC deco, but not Rebreather, although I assume once you switch to bailout, you want the same planning as you would in OC.

Sorry if my questions sound ignorant, but I dont think my Rebreather training is going to cover any deco scenarios. From what I understand, I get training for basic 130' no stop diving.

With simple dives bailing to OC is always acceptable but as dive complexity rises, you want to stay on the loop whenever possible.. A dive with a 1 hr deco on CC can be MUCH MUCH longer if you have to bail to OC.. OC bailout is always going to be a compromise.. If I have an emergency situation I want as many options as possible, and usually OC is my last choice... If I loose everything its my ONLY choice..

**Gill Envy** · 23rd May 2006, 23:10

Quote:

Last but not least, Peter is the West Coast rep for SDS, so he does have a financial stake in the success of AP's rebreathers in this area.

Both peter and Joe, it seems, are very knowledgable and experienced and dedicated to what they believe in ...so much so that both their careers are connected to the industry...lucky them!

Morral of the story, just like with dive stores, it seems best to take everything you hear with a grain of salt, corroberating the added experience and bias of a given instructor or promoter with opinion from those who may be less experienced but who have no vested interest.

For me, weighing all this out made choosing a rebreather a rather involved task...Luckily I had a lot of people in my area to compare opinions. everyone seems to have their alliances that scew their opinnions, even if it's just that they own a particular unit and are proud of it, and now that i've settled on one that includes me.

19th May 2006, 16:33	#11 (permalink)
mattwave New Member Current Rebreather/s: Evolution Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Seattle Posts: 47	Re: Evo Yes rarely is there a perfect world, and I understand your preference, but as to debate, if the unit "Floods", I most likely will end up on bailout, even so the EVO now has sealed battery compartments. The intelligence in power management feature is to keep 2 controllers operating in a single battery failure situation, where the unit will choose to drain one or the other battery or both giving you warnings to either override or choose to bailout before the unit ulimately "Tells" you to bailout. I would like to hear how if the integrity of the loop is compromised and the unit floods how you could stop the flood and remain on the loop. Or if your DSV is removed from your mouth open how the "Sealed" battery compartment of the Vision's design will fail, if the flood is that drastic how can you keep a safe loop? Last edited by mattwave : 19th May 2006 at 16:39.
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19th May 2006, 16:42	#12 (permalink)
*jradomski* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx Posts: 3,095	Re: Evo Quote: (Originally Posted by mattwave) Yes rarely is there a perfect world, and I understand your preference, but as to debate, if I "Flood" the unit, I most likely will bailout, even so the EVO now has sealed battery compartments. The intelligence in power management feature is to keep 2 controllers operating in a single battery failure situation, where the unit will choose to drain one or the other battery or both giving you warnings to either override or choose to bailout before the unit ulimately "Tells" you to bailout. I would like to hear how if the integrity of the loop is compromised and the unit floods how you could stop the flood and remain on the loop. Or if your DSV is removed from your mouth open how the "Sealed" battery compartment of the Vision's design will fail, if the flood is that drastic how can you keep a safe loop? My concern is not a total loop flood but one that allows water into the handset.. Fine you lose the display, and if the powere were truely isolated youd be ok by the HUD.. but They do have to power up the handset, that means sending voltage down the cables.. that means at some point VCC and ground could be shorted.. There are going to be multiple factors that determine how bad the short is, but the PS could be compromised.. also I dont know wheere the voltage for the backlight is produced, the BL generally neeed a greater source of voltage to operate, so that means either a charge pump in the handset or voltage coming from the head.. I do know of people that HAVE flooded handsets on the classic and it stayed as a single failure, and the dive (deco) was able to be completed on the loop instead of OC. __________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated. Last edited by jradomski : 24th May 2006 at 12:53.
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19th May 2006, 16:56	#13 (permalink)
mattwave New Member Current Rebreather/s: Evolution Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Seattle Posts: 47	Re: Evo Alright, I see how one could make that argument, but we could argue issues more relevant between the two RBs. When you start hearing of multipule cases of Vision handset floods or even one, we can talk about concerns, but "Failure Points" as I hope you know can get thrown around without genuine reasons. All the Rebreather divers I frequently dive with were trained to be confident in our team bailout gas mangement for failure in the team ratio and in a handset flood situation I would hope that we could end the dive(deco) safely on bailout.
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19th May 2006, 19:40	#14 (permalink)
*caveseeker7* Who loves ya, baby Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Too far from Neverland Posts: 5,535	Quote: (Originally Posted by mattwave) ... the injection, ... The Hammerhead offers different injection modes and if you compare printouts from cell integrated computers the HH has the edge over stock electronics when it comes to setpoint maintainance. Quote: ... the scrubber performance, ... The TempStick doesn't improve scrubber performance, at best it allows the diver to push the scrubber further and go home after the dive. Scrubber performance between AP's scrubber and Micropore's is another matter, though I don't know if the Evo's smaller cannister actually performs better than the cartridge. Quote: ... the database regarding the dive profile and brain unit operations, ... That is, like the TempStick, certainly a useful feature. Quote: ... HUD, ... The Hammerhead has that too, the DIVA in addition as well as the choice of getting hi/low pO2 warnings or actual pO2 values. Quote: ... deco and OC bailout, etc... The Hammerhead again offers that also, but as I mentioned adds a completely separate dive timer/depth meter for bailout with tables. Quote: The Vision's one handset it far from that, it is simply two handsets that are housed as one, ... Not really. Cables and connectors are shared, the display itself is shared, the power supply is shared and the two setpoint controllers are wired together to communicate with one another. So there is no redundancy. The difference between reserve and independent backup. To put it in open circuit terms, the difference between doubles and doubles with a separation manifold and two regulators. One gives you the extra supply, the other gives you redundancy. Quote: I would like to hear any other reasons why two handset units would be prefered over the Vision's true genious in the design. Okay. It's less an issue of a single handset than it is of the layout of said handset. Take the Cis-Lunars handset for example. It contained one of the three setpoint controllers with it's own pressure (depth) transducer and deco computer and a battery to power it all. The information is displayed on the screen shared with the other two setpoint controllers. On the backside is another display, for pO2, that is powered by a second battery and connected to the unit by a second cable. Even with three setpoint controllers, dual depth sensors, three different displays and no less than four batteries spread over two locations, Bill Stone added a separate pO2 monitor with its own power supply and cable. And of all the redundancy build into the Cis, that is IMHO the most important one. Quote: (Originally Posted by mattwave) None the less AP has the most State of the art facility for Rebreather manufacturing, ... AP certainly can turn out good looking parts at a high pace, you have a point there. On the other hand, if I look at the handset problem (cracks) that's still there after being in production for almost a decade there is either a problem in the design (engineering) or manufacture. Quote: ... enginering, ... They probably do, but I don't think they put them to as good a use as they could. There are rebreathers that are better engineered in many respects. The issue of redundancy has been discussed at length, but items like general layout, WOB, condensation points inside the loop, setpoint maintainance, information given by the HUD, gas management etc. It took 9 months to fix the last software glitch, which shouldn't have been there in the first place if the engineering department was that good. And the fix was at the expense of the cell verification, a worthwhile (and advertised) feature. This kind of problem also reiterates the advantage of separating setpoint controller and pO2 monitor, when the software is faulty both controllers are inflicted. With a separate pO2 gauge that would much more likely not be the case as it runs on diffeent software (if it uses any at all). To make things worse, non of it is witchcraft and quite some of it has been done better in the past. The engineers of the original MK15 already figured out that neither batteries nor solenoid belong into the loop, an independent pO2 display is an important thing to have and condensation in the sensor chamber is a bad thing. That was over 30 years ago! Quote: ... and testing ... They do have an ANSTI machine, which is great. Hasn't prevented any of the above mentioned problems as well as others that have occured in the past. But it's certainly convenient and allows for continued testing with a reduced chance of leaking data. Quote: ... in the world, Don't know about that. The competition can't match AP's testing equipment, but my money is on NAVSEA and whatever DERA is called these days when it comes to testing facilities. And other companies can likely match or exceed AP's facilities for specific testing purposes. Quote: Peter Den Haan is an excellent instructor and his crudentials are I am sure higher than whom has replied on your thread. I would listen to him foremost and trust his input. Crude-ntials. That's a Freudian slip if I ever saw one. I certainly can't match his credentials or experience, doesn't mean I'm wrong. Besides, I thoroughly enjoy a good discussion. Mark or Joe probably could flash similar amounts impressive of plastic at you, though. Last but not least, Peter is the West Coast rep for SDS, so he does have a financial stake in the success of AP's rebreathers in this area. __________________ Cheers Stefan "Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.!"
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19th May 2006, 20:15	#15 (permalink)
shell-back I do all my own stunts Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Dolphin Ray Azimuth Other SCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Dolphin Ray Azimuth Other SCR Home Build Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: middle of US Posts: 475	Re: Evo Quote: (Originally Posted by caveseeker7) Last but not least, Peter is the West Coast rep for SDS, so he does have a financial stake in the success of AP's rebreathers in this area. Damn , I had to read all that while awaiting the punch line! Matt ,I think your Dad is a cool guy too __________________ The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance -- it is the illusion of knowledge. ----Daniel Boorstin Billy Beal SDITDI IT #3507 RBW FIGJAM commitee member Last edited by shell-back : 19th May 2006 at 20:21.
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19th May 2006, 20:31	#16 (permalink)
mattwave New Member Current Rebreather/s: Evolution Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Seattle Posts: 47	Re: Evo yes Caveseeker there will always be a different preference, I am not with the spare time to quote stack, but in a nutshell, I am at a difference with many of your responses. Some may be true but most are thin in my opinion, and a few just not up to date. My reason for posting to what2be's question was for support in his decision for a fine production, civilian use Rebreather, not to discredit any other unit or boost or challenge any egos. Have a great time with it, I hope the EVO opposers don't question your decision at all.
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19th May 2006, 20:45	#17 (permalink)
what2be New Member Current Rebreather/s: Evolution Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Eureka, Ca Posts: 94	Re: Evo Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski) Matt, You can have as many warning systems as you want, but without power, its useless... BTW Dave T also dives a HammerHead.. I agree 100%. I see your point completely. True redundancy is great, and I agree that having the batteries in the loop is asking for trouble if you get a flood. When people are arguing the pros for the evo, the argument really isnt sound to say that the evo has true redundancy. It really doesent. It has some redundancy, but not from start (power) to finish (handset). Like you pointed out, what good is a redundant controller with no power? On the other hand, (and mind you, I havent even dove a Rebreather yet, so my opinion may be unfounded) is that If I have ANY sort of failure/problem with the RB,im going straight to the bailout and deco from my vr3. Why would I want to screw around with trying to fix the RB? Of course, I realize the evo has many contingencies built into it, and after my training I may feel different. But it just makes sense to me that I would want to get on some gas that I know the mix is, and doesent have any co2 problems. If you look at it in the most basic sense, there is only 3 things that can kill you, hyperoxia, hypoxia, and excessive co2. Am i correct? By switching to a bailout, you have covered all 3 of those issues (if your mix is right of course). I'm curious on 200' ish dives, do people use 2 stages, 40cf, or just a single 80cf? Im familiar with OC deco, but not Rebreather, although I assume once you switch to bailout, you want the same planning as you would in OC. Sorry if my questions sound ignorant, but I dont think my Rebreather training is going to cover any deco scenarios. From what I understand, I get training for basic 130' no stop diving.
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19th May 2006, 23:31	#18 (permalink)
Gill Envy Shearwater Copis Divers Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Evolution Other CCR Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: seattle Posts: 1,341	Re: Evo Quote: (Originally Posted by what2be) One question though. I have a friend that was pointing me in the direction of the new Diverite O2ptima and while it looks like a nice piece, I still dont think it offers the same things Im looking for that the Evo does. One thing I did notice about the O2ptima is that it has 2 handsets versus one on the Evo, but In my opinion, with redundancy in the evo handset, I really dont see why you would ever need 2 handsets. Anyone out there know if the O2ptima offers anything the Evo is lacking? I'm an evo newbie for sure, with less than 20hours under my belt but I did go through this quandary recently and hopefully have something of value to share. I struggled with the decision about weather to go with the optima, the evolution or the meg quite a bit. Actually I think each are pretty cool in their own right. The question of dual virsus single handset was a real point of perseveration . Having two totally independent handsets seemed very logical to me and steered me away from the evolution right from the start...it was 4 ½ months of noodling it over that eventually lead me to give the evo a second look. I finally decided that it was not as high a priority as some of the other features on the evolution. I was finally won over by the ease of use and simplicity. I felt that having more than two screens (VR3 and vision handset) to look at traded one risk for another. I just could not get the image out of my mind of nervously glancing back and forth between screens trying to figure out which number on which screen was inconsistent. Information overload and potential for confusion and panic and thus delayed reaction cancelled out at least some of the advantage. I finally sided, at least for the time being, with having one screen to focus on that I trust, no second handset, no back up VR3, just tables for bail out. If something goes wrong, and I’m still conscious, I’m off the loop…period. The only time I could see myself going back on the loop is if I ran out of bail out, in which case I’d be relying on the evos HUD and hopefully a hell of a lot shallower. Arguing the benefits of having two independent power sources seems tempered by the added flexibility of having the primary and secondary able to take over or be combined. The temp stick is really nice, and while it doesn’t make the scrubber more efficient per say, it does give you some objective guage as to your actual metabolic rate on a dive, which otherwise seemes to me like a guessing game that could tempt fate. When PO2 is the truck that is most likely to run you over underwater, even build quality of hardware doesn’t necessarily equate with improved safety. That said, I’m finding it increasingly difficult to really argue what might make one rebreather safer than another. The sharing of preferences is valuable to me but all too often alludes conclusion. Until we can point to a given accident and say that “X” was the cause then we are really left with stating preferences based on training, personal experience and the sound of our logic rather than conclusive evidence. __________________ Gill Envy ...Because I wasn't born with gills! ><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>
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20th May 2006, 05:42	#19 (permalink)
*jradomski* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx Posts: 3,095	Re: Evo Quote: (Originally Posted by what2be) I agree 100%. I see your point completely. True redundancy is great, and I agree that having the batteries in the loop is asking for trouble if you get a flood. When people are arguing the pros for the evo, the argument really isnt sound to say that the evo has true redundancy. It really doesent. It has some redundancy, but not from start (power) to finish (handset). Like you pointed out, what good is a redundant controller with no power? On the other hand, (and mind you, I havent even dove a Rebreather yet, so my opinion may be unfounded) is that If I have ANY sort of failure/problem with the RB,im going straight to the bailout and deco from my vr3. Why would I want to screw around with trying to fix the RB? Of course, I realize the evo has many contingencies built into it, and after my training I may feel different. But it just makes sense to me that I would want to get on some gas that I know the mix is, and doesent have any co2 problems. If you look at it in the most basic sense, there is only 3 things that can kill you, hyperoxia, hypoxia, and excessive co2. Am i correct? By switching to a bailout, you have covered all 3 of those issues (if your mix is right of course). I'm curious on 200' ish dives, do people use 2 stages, 40cf, or just a single 80cf? Im familiar with OC deco, but not Rebreather, although I assume once you switch to bailout, you want the same planning as you would in OC. Sorry if my questions sound ignorant, but I dont think my Rebreather training is going to cover any deco scenarios. From what I understand, I get training for basic 130' no stop diving. With simple dives bailing to OC is always acceptable but as dive complexity rises, you want to stay on the loop whenever possible.. A dive with a 1 hr deco on CC can be MUCH MUCH longer if you have to bail to OC.. OC bailout is always going to be a compromise.. If I have an emergency situation I want as many options as possible, and usually OC is my last choice... If I loose everything its my ONLY choice.. __________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated. Last edited by jradomski : 24th May 2006 at 13:09.
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23rd May 2006, 23:10	#20 (permalink)
Gill Envy Shearwater Copis Divers Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Evolution Other CCR Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: seattle Posts: 1,341	Re: Evo Quote: Last but not least, Peter is the West Coast rep for SDS, so he does have a financial stake in the success of AP's rebreathers in this area. Both peter and Joe, it seems, are very knowledgable and experienced and dedicated to what they believe in ...so much so that both their careers are connected to the industry...lucky them! Morral of the story, just like with dive stores, it seems best to take everything you hear with a grain of salt, corroberating the added experience and bias of a given instructor or promoter with opinion from those who may be less experienced but who have no vested interest. For me, weighing all this out made choosing a rebreather a rather involved task...Luckily I had a lot of people in my area to compare opinions. everyone seems to have their alliances that scew their opinnions, even if it's just that they own a particular unit and are proud of it, and now that i've settled on one that includes me. __________________ Gill Envy ...Because I wasn't born with gills! ><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°> Last edited by Gill Envy : 24th May 2006 at 01:09.
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