Juergensen Marine - HAMMERHEAD

***USSMEG*** · 13th January 2006, 21:24

With the early HH’s didn’t they have problems with the case battery caps pulling out the holders? Then water enters the case right? And now they are using “Plated Aluminum”? Not a good mix in Salt Water! L Just want to understand why this would be done with all the problems it creates?
Paul

***caveseeker7*** · 13th January 2006, 21:28

Pete doesn't disclose all the details, of course, but calibrations values are logged and compared, the cells' response to ambient pressure changes and O2 injections is part of it as well as comparison of those response between cells.

***jradomski*** · 13th January 2006, 22:18

Quote: (Originally Posted by USSMEG)

With the early HH’s didn’t they have problems with the case battery caps pulling out the holders? Then water enters the case right? And now they are using “Plated Aluminum”? Not a good mix in Salt Water! L Just want to understand why this would be done with all the problems it creates?
Paul

The original caps were pulled out if you didn;t follow the instructions and used tools to tighten things down.. It would have popped before you entered the water..

Even if you did flood the battery compartment all you did is lose that display/controller.. the electronics were safe.. just needed to clean up the compartment and reglue the ring..
Kevin did a few changes to stop this, he shortened the battery cap and added a set screw..

The new hansets the nickle plating is working well on the controller itself, he has had a few bezels (just decorative) that have had some corrosion.. All the sharp 'edges"seem to add to the issue.. They havent isolated the problem with the bezels, he is not surei f the machine shop used the right grade of aluminum or the nickle plating solution was contaminated.. Current HH are now going out with SS bezels as a precaution (others wll be replaced FOC)

Kevin has a few handsets sitting in concentrated salt water for a few months now with no corrosion..

***USSMEG*** · 13th January 2006, 23:43

Joe that's good news.
Later Paul

dive2dive2000 · 14th January 2006, 00:33

Quote: (Originally Posted by caveseeker7)

Pete doesn't disclose all the details, of course, but calibrations values are logged and compared, the cells' response to ambient pressure changes and O2 injections is part of it as well as comparison of those response between cells.

I believe it also takes into account on MV output. The 3 need to be within a certain tolerance of each other

.

When one goes bad the hud sends an alarm.

***caveseeker7*** · 14th January 2006, 00:41

Should have been clearer in my post, with "calibration values" and "cell response"
I referred to the mV values and the mV changes/response time of the O2 cells.

Genesis · 14th January 2006, 03:38

Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski)

Kevin has a few handsets sitting in concentrated salt water for a few months now with no corrosion..

That's not a valid test.

Aluminum (anodized or plated) does just fine until the coating gets damaged. Then its not so good. Of course everyone who uses anything scuba beats it up while using and carrying it around on boats, shores, the back of your truck, etc.

Also, if the fasteners are stainless you have a galvanic cell which eats the less noble metal - that'd be the aluminum - over time.

Also, removing and replacing it in the water exacerbates the problem as does temperature cycling (expansion and contraction produces a "pumping" action between any parts on the outside of any O-ring seals)

Realistic cyclic testing of stuff like this is very, very hard to perform. The real world is likely your best test medium - of course that means the end users finds out "the hard way" if you did it right or not..

***jradomski*** · 14th January 2006, 03:51

Quote: (Originally Posted by Genesis)

That's not a valid test.

Aluminum (anodized or plated) does just fine until the coating gets damaged. Then its not so good. Of course everyone who uses anything scuba beats it up while using and carrying it around on boats, shores, the back of your truck, etc.

Also, if the fasteners are stainless you have a galvanic cell which eats the less noble metal - that'd be the aluminum - over time.

Also, removing and replacing it in the water exacerbates the problem as does temperature cycling (expansion and contraction produces a "pumping" action between any parts on the outside of any O-ring seals)

Realistic cyclic testing of stuff like this is very, very hard to perform. The real world is likely your best test medium - of course that means the end users finds out "the hard way" if you did it right or not..

Kevin's plating is quite thick.. He had to have custom dies made for the fastners because of this..
He is using a good grade of aluminum (same as on current scuba tanks), any scratches should quickly turn to aluminum oxide and arrest further corrosion..

I know he has also done testing with an electrical current and purposedly added scratches to also speed things up.. so far so good.. We will just have to see what the long time brings..

The plating is heavy at the fastners so, the SS never comes in contact with aluminum just nickel.. The sS screws themselves come in contact with helicoils which ackt as the sacrificial surface...

Every choice has its ups and downs.. The main reason for the SS case is that people are using his stuff quite deep and the SS cases hold up beyond what all but the insane would be diving..

You don't see regulators losing heir plating that easily do you??

Genesis · 14th January 2006, 03:58

Regulator bodies are typically brass and there isn't usually a dissimilar metal fastener issue with them.

These may work out fine - I'm just not sold on aluminum for most uses in a marine environment unless you can keep any other metal away from direct contact with it. Its fine if you can - but aluminum is sacrificial to darn near everything else, so if a galvanic cell gets going between the aluminum and something else its the aluminum that's going to be the metal that takes the hit.

My experience with this stuff comes from the boating world.....

***jradomski*** · 14th January 2006, 07:23

Quote: (Originally Posted by Genesis)

Regulator bodies are typically brass and there isn't usually a dissimilar metal fastener issue with them.

These may work out fine - I'm just not sold on aluminum for most uses in a marine environment unless you can keep any other metal away from direct contact with it. Its fine if you can - but aluminum is sacrificial to darn near everything else, so if a galvanic cell gets going between the aluminum and something else its the aluminum that's going to be the metal that takes the hit.

My experience with this stuff comes from the boating world.....

I'm not disagreeing with you here, but the plating is quite thick, and the grade of aluminum used is the same thats used in AL scuba tanks, and we know how many people attach SS bands and clamps to aluminum tanks without any real issues..

I think its going to come down to how badly (and deeply) someone scratches up their handsets.

nowadays there are plenty of materials being used on 1st stages not just brass, but everyone is still using nickel/brass port plugs and the same hoses...

13th January 2006, 21:24	#11 (permalink)
*USSMEG* USSMEG Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Mass Posts: 300	Re: Juergensen Marine - HAMMERHEAD With the early HH’s didn’t they have problems with the case battery caps pulling out the holders? Then water enters the case right? And now they are using “Plated Aluminum”? Not a good mix in Salt Water! L Just want to understand why this would be done with all the problems it creates? Paul
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13th January 2006, 21:28	#12 (permalink)
*caveseeker7* Who loves ya, baby Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Too far from Neverland Posts: 5,535	Re: Juergensen Marine - HAMMERHEAD Pete doesn't disclose all the details, of course, but calibrations values are logged and compared, the cells' response to ambient pressure changes and O2 injections is part of it as well as comparison of those response between cells. __________________ Cheers Stefan "Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.!"
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13th January 2006, 22:18	#13 (permalink)
*jradomski* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx Posts: 3,095	Re: Juergensen Marine - HAMMERHEAD Quote: (Originally Posted by USSMEG) With the early HH’s didn’t they have problems with the case battery caps pulling out the holders? Then water enters the case right? And now they are using “Plated Aluminum”? Not a good mix in Salt Water! L Just want to understand why this would be done with all the problems it creates? Paul The original caps were pulled out if you didn;t follow the instructions and used tools to tighten things down.. It would have popped before you entered the water.. Even if you did flood the battery compartment all you did is lose that display/controller.. the electronics were safe.. just needed to clean up the compartment and reglue the ring.. Kevin did a few changes to stop this, he shortened the battery cap and added a set screw.. The new hansets the nickle plating is working well on the controller itself, he has had a few bezels (just decorative) that have had some corrosion.. All the sharp 'edges"seem to add to the issue.. They havent isolated the problem with the bezels, he is not surei f the machine shop used the right grade of aluminum or the nickle plating solution was contaminated.. Current HH are now going out with SS bezels as a precaution (others wll be replaced FOC) Kevin has a few handsets sitting in concentrated salt water for a few months now with no corrosion.. __________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated.
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13th January 2006, 23:43	#14 (permalink)
*USSMEG* USSMEG Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Mass Posts: 300	Re: Juergensen Marine - HAMMERHEAD Joe that's good news. Later Paul
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14th January 2006, 00:33	#15 (permalink)
dive2dive2000 PRISM DIVER & LUVIN IT! Current Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Long Island, NY Posts: 795	Re: Juergensen Marine - HAMMERHEAD Quote: (Originally Posted by caveseeker7) Pete doesn't disclose all the details, of course, but calibrations values are logged and compared, the cells' response to ambient pressure changes and O2 injections is part of it as well as comparison of those response between cells. I believe it also takes into account on MV output. The 3 need to be within a certain tolerance of each other. When one goes bad the hud sends an alarm. __________________ Safe Diving, Martin
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14th January 2006, 00:41	#16 (permalink)
*caveseeker7* Who loves ya, baby Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Too far from Neverland Posts: 5,535	Re: Juergensen Marine - HAMMERHEAD Should have been clearer in my post, with "calibration values" and "cell response" I referred to the mV values and the mV changes/response time of the O2 cells. __________________ Cheers Stefan "Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.!"
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14th January 2006, 03:38	#17 (permalink)
Genesis Bubbless Box of Death Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Home Build Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Sunny Florida Posts: 1,453	Re: Juergensen Marine - HAMMERHEAD Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski) Kevin has a few handsets sitting in concentrated salt water for a few months now with no corrosion.. That's not a valid test. Aluminum (anodized or plated) does just fine until the coating gets damaged. Then its not so good. Of course everyone who uses anything scuba beats it up while using and carrying it around on boats, shores, the back of your truck, etc. Also, if the fasteners are stainless you have a galvanic cell which eats the less noble metal - that'd be the aluminum - over time. Also, removing and replacing it in the water exacerbates the problem as does temperature cycling (expansion and contraction produces a "pumping" action between any parts on the outside of any O-ring seals) Realistic cyclic testing of stuff like this is very, very hard to perform. The real world is likely your best test medium - of course that means the end users finds out "the hard way" if you did it right or not..
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14th January 2006, 03:51	#18 (permalink)
*jradomski* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx Posts: 3,095	Re: Juergensen Marine - HAMMERHEAD Quote: (Originally Posted by Genesis) That's not a valid test. Aluminum (anodized or plated) does just fine until the coating gets damaged. Then its not so good. Of course everyone who uses anything scuba beats it up while using and carrying it around on boats, shores, the back of your truck, etc. Also, if the fasteners are stainless you have a galvanic cell which eats the less noble metal - that'd be the aluminum - over time. Also, removing and replacing it in the water exacerbates the problem as does temperature cycling (expansion and contraction produces a "pumping" action between any parts on the outside of any O-ring seals) Realistic cyclic testing of stuff like this is very, very hard to perform. The real world is likely your best test medium - of course that means the end users finds out "the hard way" if you did it right or not.. Kevin's plating is quite thick.. He had to have custom dies made for the fastners because of this.. He is using a good grade of aluminum (same as on current scuba tanks), any scratches should quickly turn to aluminum oxide and arrest further corrosion.. I know he has also done testing with an electrical current and purposedly added scratches to also speed things up.. so far so good.. We will just have to see what the long time brings.. The plating is heavy at the fastners so, the SS never comes in contact with aluminum just nickel.. The sS screws themselves come in contact with helicoils which ackt as the sacrificial surface... Every choice has its ups and downs.. The main reason for the SS case is that people are using his stuff quite deep and the SS cases hold up beyond what all but the insane would be diving.. You don't see regulators losing heir plating that easily do you?? __________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated. Last edited by jradomski : 14th January 2006 at 03:57.
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14th January 2006, 03:58	#19 (permalink)
Genesis Bubbless Box of Death Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Home Build Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Sunny Florida Posts: 1,453	Re: Juergensen Marine - HAMMERHEAD Regulator bodies are typically brass and there isn't usually a dissimilar metal fastener issue with them. These may work out fine - I'm just not sold on aluminum for most uses in a marine environment unless you can keep any other metal away from direct contact with it. Its fine if you can - but aluminum is sacrificial to darn near everything else, so if a galvanic cell gets going between the aluminum and something else its the aluminum that's going to be the metal that takes the hit. My experience with this stuff comes from the boating world.....
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14th January 2006, 07:23	#20 (permalink)
*jradomski* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx Posts: 3,095	Re: Juergensen Marine - HAMMERHEAD Quote: (Originally Posted by Genesis) Regulator bodies are typically brass and there isn't usually a dissimilar metal fastener issue with them. These may work out fine - I'm just not sold on aluminum for most uses in a marine environment unless you can keep any other metal away from direct contact with it. Its fine if you can - but aluminum is sacrificial to darn near everything else, so if a galvanic cell gets going between the aluminum and something else its the aluminum that's going to be the metal that takes the hit. My experience with this stuff comes from the boating world..... I'm not disagreeing with you here, but the plating is quite thick, and the grade of aluminum used is the same thats used in AL scuba tanks, and we know how many people attach SS bands and clamps to aluminum tanks without any real issues.. I think its going to come down to how badly (and deeply) someone scratches up their handsets. nowadays there are plenty of materials being used on 1st stages not just brass, but everyone is still using nickel/brass port plugs and the same hoses... __________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated.
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