Hammerhead's Delrin vs Vision Electronics

LoneStarDiver · 26th August 2008, 01:25

Hello!

I am a U.S. based diver with a five-year old Buddy Inspiration rebreather (aka Classic). Need to get a new electronic / decompression system and thinking about either Hammerhead's Delrin handsets and Silent Diving's Vision Electronics. Of course, cost is a consideration and given the pricing of the Vision, getting a whole new Inspiration rebreather plus the electronics almost makes sense (almost).

But it would great get to some opinions on operational characteristics (ease of use, understandability, ruggedness, reliability, etc.) of these two systems. Thank you!

vincnt moore · 26th August 2008, 02:52

You didnt ask the most important question, SERVICE.

MarkZ · 26th August 2008, 05:05

I was faced with the same decision a short while ago. Was a really painful one in that a friend was offering me a really fantastic deal on a HH package that was slightly used. After a lot of research the Vision package came out on top. Only question in my mind was the Vision did not have a second handset. I had lengthy conversations with both SDS and Kevin and came to the conclusion that the Vision had a sufficent amount of redundancy. Beyond that it has a lot more features such as the temp stick and log functions. Both are about the same as far as reliability and service, ie reliable and great service. I also spoke to the head of a couple of training agencies and though I am sure they will never admit it to the public the consensus was the Vision was the top package on the market today.

***jradomski*** · 26th August 2008, 05:36

Quote: (Originally Posted by LoneStarDiver)

Hello!

I am a U.S. based diver with a five-year old Buddy Inspiration rebreather (aka Classic). Need to get a new electronic / decompression system and thinking about either Hammerhead's Delrin handsets and Silent Diving's Vision Electronics. Of course, cost is a consideration and given the pricing of the Vision, getting a whole new Inspiration rebreather plus the electronics almost makes sense (almost).

But it would great get to some opinions on operational characteristics (ease of use, understandability, ruggedness, reliability, etc.) of these two systems. Thank you!

MY vote is for the HH electronics..

I despise the power system in the vision electronics and to me a single handset is a true lack of redundancy.. I have hours on both, and decided long ago not to buy a set of vision electronics.. I prefer the classic electronics over the vision electronics.

I would have no trouble using a vision for reasonable length dives, but would never consider using one on a expedition type dive..

at this point I have several sets of HH electonics.. I have them on 2 inspirations and I have the HH rebreather..

I don't think the temp stick is any great thing (BTW the US navy which intially did the research on this type of sensing along time ago, determined it was unreliable and the patent was assumed by one of the researchers) and all my logging is done through a cochran computer which beats any other logging system hands down..

right now about half of the active ANDI ITDs primarily use HH based rigs for their own diving..

PCDiver · 26th August 2008, 07:17

Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski)

I prefer the classic electronics over the vision electronics.

Are you also in old-timer cars?

Sersiously Joe, you must be the only one that prefers the classic over the Vision.

UKSteve · 26th August 2008, 07:26

Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski)

I despise the power system in the vision electronics

Care to elaborate why?? Based on the description of how it actually works (http://www.rebreatherworld.com/inspi...at-vision.html) it seems to go to extreme lengths to ensure that the core ECCR functions keep going as long as possible.

Steve

***jradomski*** · 26th August 2008, 07:51

Quote: (Originally Posted by PCDiver)

Are you also in old-timer cars?

Sersiously Joe, you must be the only one that prefers the classic over the Vision.

not really.. I prefer the classic because its truely redundant.. It has 2 handsets with independent power supplies.. If the vision did away with the shared power scheme and added in the ability for an optional second display, I would go along way to making me feel better.. The vision has alot of nice functions but IMHO the negatives (shared power and 1 display) outweigh the positives..

I could live with a single display because I could add in an external monitor, but the shared power is a deal breaker for me... As an electronics person, and someone that works in an industry where reliablity is demanded.. I could never support a shared power scheme in the way its implemented.. It just not done that way in ultra reliable systems.. to me shared power is as good as having no backup at all... if they really wanted a backup power system, the way to implement it is with 3 power sources 2 independent systems with one thats available to both but can be isolated..

***jradomski*** · 26th August 2008, 07:57

Quote: (Originally Posted by UKSteve)

Care to elaborate why?? Based on the description of how it actually works (http://www.rebreatherworld.com/inspi...at-vision.html) it seems to go to extreme lengths to ensure that the core ECCR functions keep going as long as possible.

Steve

using a shared power system in the way they have it controllable there are many ways that a single failure could potentially take down the entire system..

I commend them for trying to make a reliable system, but I think they made compromises and now have to live with it.. Look at all the updates that have been done with regard to the power system.. Tells me they havent been happy with the performance and reports of weird actions still keep showing up...

UKSteve · 26th August 2008, 08:09

Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski)

there are many ways that a single failure could potentially take down the entire system..

I'm sorry but that's a pretty sweeping statement...care to identify some of them? Especially the ones that are unique to the Vision??

Steve

***jradomski*** · 26th August 2008, 09:20

Quote: (Originally Posted by UKSteve)

I'm sorry but that's a pretty sweeping statement...care to identify some of them? Especially the ones that are unique to the Vision??

Steve

once you go with a microprocessor controlled switching system all sorts of failure can pop in.. Its not limited to the vision.. for every failure there are generally ways to detect and correct them but the electronics start to get very complex... from what I saw on a set of electronics I took apart a while back the vision electronics are pretty simple and appears to be highly dependent on doing everything by the cpus..

Micro controllers are subject to alot of different types of RANDOM failures, some are more predictable than others.. The potential consequences all depend on where and when the failure ocurs.. lets use a general cpu failure..

The cpu locks up.. this is usually detectable by watchdog timers, but what if the clock supplying the wd fails, well then the watchdog doesnt work.. if a crystal failure caused the cpu to lock (and its also supplied the wd), and the mechanism to detect the lock up failed then you have an unrecoverable failure.. depending on how this fails the consequences can be nothing to major.. once you get cpus controlling power sources a trouble like this can have serious implications.. Real power control generally has to be done on timescales that are generally not attainable with microcontrollers.

reliable systems need very complex failure analysis, each subsystem could take months to analyze, then you need an overall failure analysis.. This is the reason why reliable systems usually implement different ways to accomplish the same goal within the same system so that its unlikely that a common failure can happen..

26th August 2008, 01:25	#1 (permalink)
LoneStarDiver New Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Texas Posts: 4	Hammerhead's Delrin vs Vision Electronics Hello! I am a U.S. based diver with a five-year old Buddy Inspiration rebreather (aka Classic). Need to get a new electronic / decompression system and thinking about either Hammerhead's Delrin handsets and Silent Diving's Vision Electronics. Of course, cost is a consideration and given the pricing of the Vision, getting a whole new Inspiration rebreather plus the electronics almost makes sense (almost). But it would great get to some opinions on operational characteristics (ease of use, understandability, ruggedness, reliability, etc.) of these two systems. Thank you!
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26th August 2008, 02:52	#2 (permalink)
vincnt moore RBW Member Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Philadelphia Pa. Posts: 84	Re: Hammerhead's Delrin vs Vision Electronics You didnt ask the most important question, SERVICE.
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26th August 2008, 05:05	#3 (permalink)
MarkZ RBW Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: PA USA Posts: 106	Re: Hammerhead's Delrin vs Vision Electronics I was faced with the same decision a short while ago. Was a really painful one in that a friend was offering me a really fantastic deal on a HH package that was slightly used. After a lot of research the Vision package came out on top. Only question in my mind was the Vision did not have a second handset. I had lengthy conversations with both SDS and Kevin and came to the conclusion that the Vision had a sufficent amount of redundancy. Beyond that it has a lot more features such as the temp stick and log functions. Both are about the same as far as reliability and service, ie reliable and great service. I also spoke to the head of a couple of training agencies and though I am sure they will never admit it to the public the consensus was the Vision was the top package on the market today.
(Offline)

26th August 2008, 05:36	#4 (permalink)
*jradomski* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx Posts: 3,115	Re: Hammerhead's Delrin vs Vision Electronics Quote: (Originally Posted by LoneStarDiver) Hello! I am a U.S. based diver with a five-year old Buddy Inspiration rebreather (aka Classic). Need to get a new electronic / decompression system and thinking about either Hammerhead's Delrin handsets and Silent Diving's Vision Electronics. Of course, cost is a consideration and given the pricing of the Vision, getting a whole new Inspiration rebreather plus the electronics almost makes sense (almost). But it would great get to some opinions on operational characteristics (ease of use, understandability, ruggedness, reliability, etc.) of these two systems. Thank you! MY vote is for the HH electronics.. I despise the power system in the vision electronics and to me a single handset is a true lack of redundancy.. I have hours on both, and decided long ago not to buy a set of vision electronics.. I prefer the classic electronics over the vision electronics. I would have no trouble using a vision for reasonable length dives, but would never consider using one on a expedition type dive.. at this point I have several sets of HH electonics.. I have them on 2 inspirations and I have the HH rebreather.. I don't think the temp stick is any great thing (BTW the US navy which intially did the research on this type of sensing along time ago, determined it was unreliable and the patent was assumed by one of the researchers) and all my logging is done through a cochran computer which beats any other logging system hands down.. right now about half of the active ANDI ITDs primarily use HH based rigs for their own diving.. __________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated.
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26th August 2008, 07:17	#5 (permalink)
PCDiver Submerge Productions Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Belgium Posts: 1,003	Re: Hammerhead's Delrin vs Vision Electronics Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski) I prefer the classic electronics over the vision electronics. Are you also in old-timer cars? Sersiously Joe, you must be the only one that prefers the classic over the Vision. __________________ >>>>> www.submergeproductions.com dedicated to promoting technical diving >>>>> Check out our dive show video interviews and Wreck dive videos >>>>> Now also on iTunes and Zune
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26th August 2008, 07:26	#6 (permalink)
UKSteve Steve Collard Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Weymouth, UK Posts: 601	Re: Hammerhead's Delrin vs Vision Electronics Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski) I despise the power system in the vision electronics Care to elaborate why?? Based on the description of how it actually works (http://www.rebreatherworld.com/inspi...at-vision.html) it seems to go to extreme lengths to ensure that the core ECCR functions keep going as long as possible. Steve Last edited by UKSteve : 26th August 2008 at 07:29.
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26th August 2008, 07:51	#7 (permalink)
*jradomski* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx Posts: 3,115	Re: Hammerhead's Delrin vs Vision Electronics Quote: (Originally Posted by PCDiver) Are you also in old-timer cars? Sersiously Joe, you must be the only one that prefers the classic over the Vision. not really.. I prefer the classic because its truely redundant.. It has 2 handsets with independent power supplies.. If the vision did away with the shared power scheme and added in the ability for an optional second display, I would go along way to making me feel better.. The vision has alot of nice functions but IMHO the negatives (shared power and 1 display) outweigh the positives.. I could live with a single display because I could add in an external monitor, but the shared power is a deal breaker for me... As an electronics person, and someone that works in an industry where reliablity is demanded.. I could never support a shared power scheme in the way its implemented.. It just not done that way in ultra reliable systems.. to me shared power is as good as having no backup at all... if they really wanted a backup power system, the way to implement it is with 3 power sources 2 independent systems with one thats available to both but can be isolated.. __________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated.
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26th August 2008, 07:57	#8 (permalink)
*jradomski* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx Posts: 3,115	Re: Hammerhead's Delrin vs Vision Electronics Quote: (Originally Posted by UKSteve) Care to elaborate why?? Based on the description of how it actually works (http://www.rebreatherworld.com/inspi...at-vision.html) it seems to go to extreme lengths to ensure that the core ECCR functions keep going as long as possible. Steve using a shared power system in the way they have it controllable there are many ways that a single failure could potentially take down the entire system.. I commend them for trying to make a reliable system, but I think they made compromises and now have to live with it.. Look at all the updates that have been done with regard to the power system.. Tells me they havent been happy with the performance and reports of weird actions still keep showing up... __________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated.
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26th August 2008, 08:09	#9 (permalink)
UKSteve Steve Collard Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Weymouth, UK Posts: 601	Re: Hammerhead's Delrin vs Vision Electronics Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski) there are many ways that a single failure could potentially take down the entire system.. I'm sorry but that's a pretty sweeping statement...care to identify some of them? Especially the ones that are unique to the Vision?? Steve
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26th August 2008, 09:20	#10 (permalink)
*jradomski* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx Posts: 3,115	Re: Hammerhead's Delrin vs Vision Electronics Quote: (Originally Posted by UKSteve) I'm sorry but that's a pretty sweeping statement...care to identify some of them? Especially the ones that are unique to the Vision?? Steve once you go with a microprocessor controlled switching system all sorts of failure can pop in.. Its not limited to the vision.. for every failure there are generally ways to detect and correct them but the electronics start to get very complex... from what I saw on a set of electronics I took apart a while back the vision electronics are pretty simple and appears to be highly dependent on doing everything by the cpus.. Micro controllers are subject to alot of different types of RANDOM failures, some are more predictable than others.. The potential consequences all depend on where and when the failure ocurs.. lets use a general cpu failure.. The cpu locks up.. this is usually detectable by watchdog timers, but what if the clock supplying the wd fails, well then the watchdog doesnt work.. if a crystal failure caused the cpu to lock (and its also supplied the wd), and the mechanism to detect the lock up failed then you have an unrecoverable failure.. depending on how this fails the consequences can be nothing to major.. once you get cpus controlling power sources a trouble like this can have serious implications.. Real power control generally has to be done on timescales that are generally not attainable with microcontrollers. reliable systems need very complex failure analysis, each subsystem could take months to analyze, then you need an overall failure analysis.. This is the reason why reliable systems usually implement different ways to accomplish the same goal within the same system so that its unlikely that a common failure can happen.. __________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated.
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